GordonsCorner

I'm wondering if anyone else had the following bad experience with a dog food manufacturing business? As I'm still fairly new this forum, I apologise to the moderator if the following contravenes the rules? If so, please let me know. Anyway, I've been a BARF patties (dog food) customer for some months now. I bought same from Petbarn stores. BARF is created, manufactured and owned by Vet Dr. Ian Billinghurst. His website has a 'Contact US' form like most sites do, and about a few months ago, I placed a written inquiry and never received a response. I let that go and never gave it a second thought on the fact of a lack of response. I have again inquired through via writing another inquiry related to his supplement product a few days ago, to again, no avail thus far. So I thought I'd phone him today, which I did, on his mobile number as it is advertised on his products. I brought the above to his attention and asked why should I continue to buy his products if he or his business is unwilling to answer inquiries. When I pointed out the latest inquiry I made, he replied, "Oh you're that bloke", which tells me he indeed did receive the inquiry. I replied, "Yeah, I'm that bloke", to which he replied, "I don't give a f***", I said, "Oh really?" being caught off guard and shocked that I was, of which I couldn't get another word in as he then said, "Why don't you f*** off?" and hung up the phone. I don't know about what others may think? But is that the new style in winning customers? Maybe it is and I'm just unaware of this. I know my 2 written inquiries were in no way provocative, so I'm flabbergasted as to a so-called Veterinary professional would behave that way? Anyway, what I found was that he has a supplement product called 'Canine Daily Nutrition' and details can be found by going to barfaustralia.com, and then the 'Learn More' tab, and then 'VNE' selection. This actually takes you to another site which I found is actually based in the USA. Furthermore, the supplement's ingredients list contains menadione, a synthetic version of vitamin K1 and K2, being classed as K3. I don't use this supplement and am skeptical about K3 as it has numerous world wide negative info regarding its possible side effects on our best friends, the dog. It's also banned or use by us humans. What's that say about what effect regarding its toxicity is? Anyway, someone else pointed this out to me and also showed just how the USA's barfworld.com version of a similar supplement called E-BARF Plus, has different ingredients (All round better), and does not contain K3 in it. This product also has Dr. Billinghurst's name to it. Why the differences and why the K3? Isn't that a fair question to submit an inquiry form over? And shouldn't a loyal customer expect a reply? This is what I wrote to someone that I was communicating via email with....."The funny thing is, I don't expect him to just take it out of any future production, just because he received a concerned inquiry over it. It's his choice or the contract manufacturers compiling or extruding the supplement. But if he or a representative doesn't reply in relation to their take on this ingredient, then why should such customer (me) buy any of his products? One can't just rely on their laurels! Especially in today's economy." And now BARF Australia (The man himself) told me "Who gives a f***", then, "Why don't you f*** off?". Wow, 10 points for the person who guesses if I'll buy any product that has anything to do with him or his businesses, any further? Lol....It's beyond comprehension!

It is 100% true, and part of the reason I would not argue the point to those that 'think' fresh meat is better. What they are really feeding there pet is mostly moisture, a large part of that being H20. I have spent years dealing with aquaculture foods and the very best ingredient you can use for really adding protein is fish meal, it is a scientifically proven fact. The commercial foods used for growing aqua-cultured Salmon and Trout, have extremely high levels of protein, this can only be provided by using fish and crustacea meal. The same is on offer for aquatic hobbyists who want high quality foods, although other ingredients such as the skin of shrimp and some fish are added to increase Omega fats and protein levels. To put it in simple terms, you are dealing with a concentrate. I could bore you with pages of data, but google will help you make your own mind up. There is a place for Kibble, as there is for fresh foods, it really comes down to personal preference and what your pet likes or is happy with. Personally I think a combination of kibble and fresh foods is the best option for feeding of my own pets, but as per above, personal preference is the key to this I don't "think" that raw has more protein that processed I KNOW it is! What I am actually feeding my dogs is 100% human quality meat sold to me by a butcher! are you really saying that as a human all I am actually eating when I buy and eat a steak is just water? Do you really think that people are stupid enough to believe your rubbish attempt at brainwashing to feed processed pet poison? Thanks very much PSA for the usual patronising "I sell processed Pet Poison for Profit - therefore it must be good Guff!" Meat Meal is rubbish food - you may as well feed your dog cardboard! It would be very interesting to hear your reply to the following points:- (from various websites) If you Google "meat meal" there is nothing good to be said about it at all! From website #1 - Meat meals, poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are common ingredients in dry pet foods. The term “meal” means that these materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. While there are chicken, turkey, and poultry by-product meals there is no equivalent term for mammal “meat by-product meal” — it is called “meat-and-bone-meal.” It may also be referred to by species, such as “beef-and-bone-meal” or “pork-and-bone-meal.” What is rendering? As defined by Webster’s Dictionary, to render is “to process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting.” In other words, raw materials are dumped into large vat and boiled for several hours. Rendering separates fat, removes water, and kills bacteria, viruses, parasites, and other organisms. However, the high temperatures used (270°F/130°C) can alter or destroy natural enzymes and proteins found in the raw ingredients. Website #2 If a pet food lists "meat by-products" on the label, remember that this is the material that usually comes from the slaughterhouse industry or dead stock removal operations, classified as condemned or contaminated, unfit for human consumption. Meat meal, meat and bone meal, digests, and tankage (specifically animal tissue including bones and exclusive of hair, hoofs, horns, and contents of digestive tract) are composed of rendered material. The label need not state what the composition of this material is, as each batch rendered would consist of a different material. These are the sources of protein that we are feeding our companion animals. So how is any of this "better" to feed a dog?? Really interested to see what you have to say PSA - have you ever actually researched these products? As for not being irradiated - ALL imported dog foods that come through Australia's Quarantine MUST be irradiated - there is no way it can be exempted! Tyra - Actually it is true that meat meals contain higher protein levels than fresh meat. About 3 times more. But that doesn't mean it is better than fresh. Meat meals are used in kibbles because kibble isn't fresh, and is a way to still include meat protein sources in kibble so pets who are fed kibble don't miss out on meat sourced protein. You are right about generic and unnamed meat meals. These are ones to stay away from. But ones that are actually named in kibble ingredients labels such as 'chicken meal', 'beef meal', 'lamb meal' etc are actually OK! Fresh meats do contain water just like out own bodies do. Something like 70 to 80% in fact. It's when fresh meats are cooked, that they'll lose their water content, hence their weight as well. And lastly, not all imported pet foods including dog foods are irradiated. Even as of the time of your post, your statement is incorrect. For example Artemis and Canidae range of kibbles are not irradiated because they fall in the guidelines set out here. http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/1152071/33-2009.pdf Orijen kibble that was irradiated before being recalled in 2008 and since not available in Australia any longer, can not be imported with out being irradiated because Champion Foods cook it and their Acana range at 10 degrees below the minimum required by DAFF and AQIS.

Artemis Maximal is also a grain free food and it's been available in Australia for quite some time now. It does have a very high protein content but then so does the Canidae fish variety. I feed my dogs Artemis Maximal kibble when alternating with a BARF diet. I prefer and believe Artemis Maximal grain free is better than Canidae grain free because it contains far less carbohydrate percentage than Canidae. The higher the carbohydrate nutrient percentage in dog food, the further away it is from the dog's evolutionary ancestral diet. Whilst Artemis Maximal also contains a higher protein level than Canidae formulas, it only has a single meat protein source in chicken, as opposed to Canidae containing a few protein meat sources. This can also be advantageous in dogs with either specific or multiple protein source allergies.

Because it makes me question whether it is as good as I think. Particularly when references back the 'natural' diet of wild canines is used to justify such a diet. Eg the 'feed your dog like a wolf' type arguments - not only are dogs not wolves in terms of nutritional needs, farmed meat isn't equivalent to wild prey meat either. I don't advocate a purely kibble diet, unless medically advised, but with a number of parameters changed/changing and some in ways most people aren't aware of maybe including a premium kibble along with raw is an optimum choice for many households. Not for mine necessarily, because I'm a dog nut willing to put in extra effort, but for many. I also posted those comments because I was hoping it might draw out some better, referenced, information on that issue. Edited for typos I know I'm way late on this conversation as I'm new to this forum, but Diva, I disagree with your comment "not only are dogs not wolves in terms of nutritional needs", because I've read the contrary. Basically, the domestic dog has exactly the same nutritional requirements as the ancestral wolf, because they share 99.8% in Mitochondrial DNA. And that make a lot of sense! Even a class 1 toy type dog has exactly the same nutritional requirement as a wild wolf numerous times its size. I read that Nuclear DNA differs to Mitochondrial DNA and is what causes the differences in shape, size, and behaviour than that of the wild wolf, as an example on the subject of Nuclear DNA. So basically there's 2 different types of DNA in every life form.

Changes to farming practices will have affected the meat that is used in kibble as much as it has affected human grade meat, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to your opinion of a raw diet? In your mind and mine, the best diet is still going to be raw. True - raw diets are still the best to feed out beloved dogs, despite the progression of grain fed meats over grass fed same. I feed my dogs part time BARF and wonder what Dr. Billinghurst (considering he also has a bachelor degree in agriculture as well as veterinary science) uses in his BARF formulas regarding this point. I might ask him, but I think grain fed meats are still more prevalent in the USA than it is here. Grain fed meats are just a way of fattening such meats up, for the sake of the meat industry's bottom dollar. Anyway, the following is an interesting link regarding points about grass fed meats vs grain fed ones, that I read or got from another forum. http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/id77.htm

I agree. Our vet describes herself as a holistic vet. She's as good & experienced at the medical/surgery side, as she is at supplements & diet. The tibs are so healthy, thanks to her. I've learned, too, how deceptive the labelling of many of the dog products are. It's so important....& revealing...to read the actual ingredients. I have an article somewhere at home that goes into detail about the labelling issues with pet food. I was really shocked to read some of it. I will see if I can locate it and post it online. Dogs are simply not meant to eat grains, whether as fillers and binders in any kibble or from any source at all. I'm not surprised about the above person's dog's ear yeast infection was caused by grains. All sorts of problems can occur from long term grain based dog diets, including shorter life span in my opinion. Unlike us, dogs don't have amylase (a certain enzyme) in their saliva, which would start breaking grains or any starchy carbohydrates, down before even entering their stomach. Dogs contain amylase in their small intestine, which accompanied with the fact that the dog's digestive tract is much shorter than ours, makes grains that much harder for them to actually digest grains properly.

I too feed my two terriers the BARF diet. But I alternate between BARF and Artemis Maximal grain free kibble due to this being more economical. Plus they get raw meaty bones every night. BARF patties are like $2 a patty. To feed this full time is not cheap. I could compile my own BARF diet for my dogs but I don't have the time. I know by now you probably already know, Canidae kibbles are made in the USA by Diamond Pet. As are the Artemis range of kibbles. But they are NOT GAMMA IRRADIATED on import into this country, because they meet AQIS's minimum cooking temperature requirement at 100 degrees. With added probiotics, mineral chelation and named meat meals etc these kibbles still contain some health benefits and retained main nutrients and are definitely better than the mainstream grain riddled kibbles.