Angeluca

I saw another person claim a quiet few yrs ago they too her to court over a female who had hd at 7 mths, they won and got to keep the dog, she as7 developed front leg problems (maybe cause from a weight distribution off her back legs). There are so many claims by people. 1 I saw was 12 yrs. If it was the odd dog wit HD then yeah can happen to everyone but when it seems you have 10+ it seems a bit of a pattern and if she cared maybe she should have checked her lines and done something different. Yes you can't prevent everything but how many HD cases within 2 yrs of a dogs life is acceptable?

This is a agility starter kit for under $50 http://www.petco.com/product/113665/Kyjen-Dog-Agility-Obstacle-Course-Starter-Kit.aspx Don't do agility but saw it when i was looking for treat bags

I think the judgement comes from repeated experiences dating back 12 yrs (from what I have found just in my curiosity search) I hate breeder bashing especially when it isn't justified. So I try to find out as much as I can before making an opinion. The exact same story repeated in many ways, No visual of litter or mother due to 'quarantine'. Verbal statements of testing, Most said they have seen the father through a fence some said he seemed very excited' that there is at least 10 dogs in view but unknown what is in the back. On these issues Alone, quarantine is important yes but there are plenty of ways to go about that. Mother and litter in the visual pen without approach, disinfectant and those funny shower caps that go over your shoes. Why can the sire be approached, goldens and I assume flats are suppose to have the most friendly nature there should be no reason not to actually meet the dog. But with this all causing 'alarm bells' they still buy the pup. There are so many people who claim to personally own a dancing gate dog and claim HD think i saw the earliest case was 6 mths most (all that I have read state HD before age 2) A lot of these claims state the joint didn't form properly and not a dislocation. I know this can still be environmental but that is impossible with the amount of claims. Other claims are ED, eye problems, sibling matings.

did a google saw this forum: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/choosing-golden-retriever-breeder-puppy/121549-beware-dancing-gate-2.html Page 2 last post (I think no. 5)Dated yesterday 'I got a reply from Dogs West. Apparently this afternoon Joy Smith handed in her resignation as a member of Dogs West, effective immediately, this means that Dogs West cannot take any action against her. -very smart on Mrs Smiths part i reckon. anyway, i don't know if that means that she is legal able to sell pups now but lets hope she has now stopped!' Hmmm very sly now she is a backyard breeder and will probably change the kennel name.

Can you not leave it with family?

2 answers to your question Yes it is less commercial and more a relationship. that is what is suppose to happen. But breeders have so many inquiries that it is hard to establish who is serious and who is not or questionable. Also some people get offended when they can't choose their pick pup or by questions asked. Some don't like to be explained how we think they need to raise their dog and so forth (inside/outside desexing and training). We as breeders know once we have chosen a home for our pup it then becomes their dog but we would choose the home we think the pup would be raised best. So building that relationship can be a trick thing it needs a lot of understanding, open mindedness and honesty from both sides. The other point is not many people are so informed as you to even ask about shows, some people don't care what achievements the dogs have or what we do with them, they want a healthy pup for their family that is it. they don't want to go to shows it doesn't interest them. There is nothing wrong with these people but sometimes it does make things harder to explain certain training and upbringing methods and just to get tho know them in general. Credit to you for being so informed and being available for shows. But you are few and far between.

I don't say 'approved homes only'. it is not an application and It sounds to dictator like. And that the puppy buyer has to jump though hoops to be 'Approved'. I say suitable homes only. I start with a detailed first contact email that i copy and paste. I wrote in the other 'buying a puppy thread'. In that email has 5 questions that will give me an Idea of the sort of lifestyle they have (in a ballpark) they are basic questions and not very intrusive. The first questing is their stand on desexing. I ask it in a way for them to explain why yes or no and not in the assumption that they have to ect 'will you desex' or 'do you desex'. Some people have very reasonable ideas. And if they are unsure they ask my recommendation. You need to approach puppy buyers is the same respect and consideration as you the breeder wants to be approached. Anything Less is Rude and not worth anyones time.

From the first email response I take the time to lay out everything. it starts with when they were born to when they will be ready the puppies colour and sex and how many of each in the litter and how many is left. I then lay out registered name+ name and heath scores, and temperament of sire and Dam. I then say cost and explain my deposit system. And that they are only avialble to suitable homes. Viewing the dam and sire (if i have him)is encouraged. I intent to keep a pup for my self and will select the most suitable pup for each home at 6 weeks. Some instances there is a choice sometimes not. Pups on limited register unless otherwise dicussed. I then ask 5 main questions What is your stand on desexing? What lifestyle do you live (active/relaxed, work situation, ect)? Children if any your or visitors? Are you familiar with the breed and have you any other pets? What are you looking for in a pup? I attach a pic of both sire and dam and couple of the puppies. and every inquiry via email or phone is sent this and all i need to do is copy and paste. I need to do is change the person I am saying hello to, and the amount of pups left. And of course the puppy photos get the most recent on the computer at the time. If they call or email back I then start getting a feel for them, talk more personally with them and those who decide to commit get weekly updates and pics of their puppies

funny thing is the person who started it all regrets the whole experiment. http://www.globalanimal.org/2010/12/02/man-who-created-labradoodles-regrets-the-cross-breed/25768/

I haven't read even a quarter of these posts because really, it's going round it circles! But I am guessing the "except Razor" part was just sarcasm if thats the case then

And not once have you stated why you think your above the law even tho it has been repeated asked Listen, I've repeatedly answered what my motivations are and the way I go about doing the things I do in an effort to show that there is another side to the coin. Not everything is black and white. To the sanctimonious, holier that thou attitude, OMG it's a by-law brigade. Unless you have never in your life broken/ignore a rule, give up on the lecturing. Okay I change my view point now. I believe in stronger enforcement or leash laws, registration, dog containment on all dog owners (except for Razorblade). Case closed. Except? Razor????? why except razor??? Why should he be any different to those who have proven their stills as a handler or trainer???? Guide dogs are exceptionally trained they have to be because of their work but even if they are wearing their coat and are being walked by a person not visually impaired they still have to be on a lead in on lead areas? If we take Razors word of mouth that he has effectively trained his dog (which we are) it still does not make him an exception. Razor I applaud any one who has the ability to establish the ability that not all dog owners are bad. But there are ways of doing it. If you have taken such time in creating such an exceptional dog why risk and more problems upon yourself? If you dog was rushed and attacked because you also have him off lead you too could possibly find your self in trouble. You come off to the public as a arrogant SOB who thinks himself above the law because you openly choose to break it. If your intention is to educate the public then go about it in an effective manner, Host obedience seminars, Approach schools to do displays, become an instructor in obedience, lobby for more off lead areas, Approach a cafe to make an fenced off lead eating area, host 'train your dog picnics' at local parks, approach news papers or Tv shows to display to the public not all dog owners are bad. Some of these may seem far fetched but what your currently doing is displaying bad ownership, as responsible ownership is not just effective control on a very healthy dog, it is also respect and responsibility and accountability in regards to laws and general public which just so happens to include non dog owners. What you do is wrong and ineffective, sitting at a table where a dog should be leashed, some may see a nice dog but at least double that would see an unleashed dog who they don't know and can be frightened of, you won't even notice these people because they've already gone the other way and wouldn't it be these people who your trying to demonstrate to?

And not once have you stated why you think your above the law even tho it has been repeated asked

we have the bull arab piggy types, few kelpies and kelp x, lots of GSD, a few labs and a few retrievers, few rotties, border collies, quiet a few staffys, sooooooooo many little dog mixes, toy poodles. I seen 2 stardard poodles, and 1 rough collie, a couple of huskies and a couple of neo and english mastiffs. common crosses in the area bull arab and whatever goes in them kelpie/border gsd/cattledog gsd/rottie shi/maltese toy poodle/maltese staffy/kelpie/cattledog pei/bull arab thingys shi/ something that made a really really ugly stick sufferers. long, short, flat faced, bottom jaw like a bulldog. size of a welsh corgi, wire haired apart from the long ear hair and long tail hair. black/blue tinge colour. I wasn't even sure i was looking at a dog it was at the vet when i was there with Ruby and even she was thinking about it.

Come on now, no need to back away from it now. Take my comments in their most literal terms, however I am willing to state I do find you an arrogant person, that can be directly associated with the stereotypes myself and others have mention for your sheer disregard for the law and the community you live in. One of those other anuses I have state will see you and your disregard to the law and ask themselves why can't they do the same. It is not up to your judgement when and where the law should be obeyed or enforced nor to give yourself or anybody else the privileged that the law does not apply to you. It does not matter You think your dog is good. It does not matter if your dog IS good. It does not even directly have to do with the behavior you or your dog has in public, What if a bunch of self righteous complainers see you and your dog and report you repeatedly to the council who then impose the law of no dogs in business districts causing your cafe to enforce a regulation of no dogs with a distance of a human consumption premises. And it was all done cause they got a few sly pics of your dog loose and the council had enough of the complaints which would have been unwarranted if you had just clipped a loose lead to his collar.??

I too am not afraid of dogs off lead, I live rural so not as many leash laws out here. But were there is I would like those to obey those laws so we can keep our freedom and privileges. Once upon a time there were no laws, then people stopped being responsible and dog control became less and less. incident after incident cause people to complain to authorities, Authorities can only do what they do, impose laws and regulate things that cause society harm or distress. People who do the right thing get regulated as well all due to some 'Anus' who couldn't care about others. Razor is living in a world probably 20-40 years too late, back then he would been considered an upstanding member of society to have such a dog that good. Now this is not the case. There is nothing to justify breaking the law, not a good controlled dog nothing. Guide dogs, Security guards and police don't walk around with their dogs loose, and I would tend to believe their dog is more effectively trained. Law is there cause others thought themselves better then everyone else and caused problems. And while we still have that carelessness is out community more laws and more restrictions will come. and we have those people to blame for it not the government.

We've gone bloody wrong when the vocal minority scream blue murder to have EVERYONE and their darned dogs legislated against to the point that it's freaking impossible to take them out to socialise properly... FFS, can't anyone SEE that? No - let's just stamp our feet up and down and legislate to the lowest common denominator and royally fark it up for EVRYONE... that'll fix it, right? T. I haven't been to an off leash park (only a beach for small dogs and not many of them) can't dogs socialize there, or is that not what you mean? Just go and look into a designated off-leash park Trudy08... and tell me if you'd like to let your dog run there with all of the others to "socialise" with... The problem with most off-leash parks is that they are few and far between, and likely to be highly populated with dogs who aren't ever allowed out anywhere else... and thusly generally running amok like loons... Yeah - I'd love to take my pup there for some socialisation... NOT! That said - there are a few off-leash parks where there is a reasonably high proportion of genuinely decent owners with well socialised and friendly dogs... but it's a hike to find one like that at a time that fits in around working for a living. Quite frankly, I just keep my dogs at home - more because they are large dogs, 2 of which are bull breed crosses - and hysterical people like yourself make taking my dogs out for a walk a very unpleasant experience... even though they are on lead and very social dogs. T. I don't have breedism...........it's off lead large dogs that scare me. Well it's true Razor I don't care what the breed is, just that it's on the large size and it's off leash. Yeah breeds would be much to specific. You like a much broader sweeping generalisation. That way you can point the finger at even more evil, degenerate, law breakers out for a walk with their dogs. Small dogs are ok are they? Breaking the law is not ok period. It's this idiotic behavior (ignoring the law) which has caused the stupid restrictions and stupid breed laws. Because some Anus thinks that the law does not apply to them. They can't police every Idiot so make a broad spectrum law. So thank you for being the type of person who has made owning a dog more difficult in this country. You openly disobey the law and can be put is the same basket as every other bast*rd that does. Which law is irrelevant. You need to stop calling me nasty names, it's hurting my feelings. I didn't actually call You anything, i associated those names to a type of population, If you too can see how you can be put in that same basket, then that is your issue. i said 'can be' not 'are' idiotic behavior isn't a direct association 'i said what u do is idiotic not you are' and 'some Anus' and 'Bast*rd* is a broad statement in reference to a group of people who cause life to hard on others without remorse. If you see your self in these categories maybe you should look at you persona.

We've gone bloody wrong when the vocal minority scream blue murder to have EVERYONE and their darned dogs legislated against to the point that it's freaking impossible to take them out to socialise properly... FFS, can't anyone SEE that? No - let's just stamp our feet up and down and legislate to the lowest common denominator and royally fark it up for EVRYONE... that'll fix it, right? T. I haven't been to an off leash park (only a beach for small dogs and not many of them) can't dogs socialize there, or is that not what you mean? Just go and look into a designated off-leash park Trudy08... and tell me if you'd like to let your dog run there with all of the others to "socialise" with... The problem with most off-leash parks is that they are few and far between, and likely to be highly populated with dogs who aren't ever allowed out anywhere else... and thusly generally running amok like loons... Yeah - I'd love to take my pup there for some socialisation... NOT! That said - there are a few off-leash parks where there is a reasonably high proportion of genuinely decent owners with well socialised and friendly dogs... but it's a hike to find one like that at a time that fits in around working for a living. Quite frankly, I just keep my dogs at home - more because they are large dogs, 2 of which are bull breed crosses - and hysterical people like yourself make taking my dogs out for a walk a very unpleasant experience... even though they are on lead and very social dogs. T. I don't have breedism...........it's off lead large dogs that scare me. Well it's true Razor I don't care what the breed is, just that it's on the large size and it's off leash. Yeah breeds would be much to specific. You like a much broader sweeping generalisation. That way you can point the finger at even more evil, degenerate, law breakers out for a walk with their dogs. Small dogs are ok are they? Breaking the law is not ok period. It's this idiotic behavior (ignoring the law) which has caused the stupid restrictions and stupid breed laws. Because some Anus thinks that the law does not apply to them. They can't police every Idiot so make a broad spectrum law. So thank you for being the type of person who has made owning a dog more difficult in this country. You openly disobey the law and can be put is the same basket as every other bast*rd that does. Which law is irrelevant.

Yes not sure i mentioned it but I am for any advertisement a breeder wishes, how else would we compete in the market, I sorta feel obligated to, because some of those homes could be the best home. And not all people who know to look at a pedigree have the pups best interest at heart. Where do some of these byb and puppy farms get their dogs from. Unbelievable how many times I've seen the purebred X with ANKC papers cross with purebred Y with ANKC papers. And just recently with updating my knowledge of a bitches season (due to my girls split season which didn't really present as one and the vets were at a loss too)So I did my google to find other experiences, books I don't have access to or wouldn't know to read and I come across the 'I brought my lab who has great pedigree parents to breed with my friends spaniel' (for example) there are hundreds of these out there, seeking online vet advice cause something hasn't gone right. It was sad and frustrating to have to sift though these stupid and careless 'intentional breedings' to find relevant information by vets and experienced breeders, because they had the same key words in them.

I see that you don't embark on this prior to birth process and isn't directed at you but the process it's self. Firstly your first sentence. It would only be legal if the breeder expressed that the deposit was nonrefundable prior to handover but even then in my recent case studies I have seen this sort of contract over turned to to the law of equity. One for the seller being in a better financial position then before the contract (pending if they could easily sell to someone else without to much effort) Happens with second hand car sales all the time. (for those I only reference an inanimate object in reference to the law, which visualizes the sale of dogs in the same way. Not my personal belief) and secondly it's not common within the retail industry to retain full deposits so unless the breeder expressed in writing it so stands a good chance to be over turned. As for your last I'm not sure honestly, just like the whole legality of dogs shouldn't be within the same league as selling cars or tvs. A car or Tv can be all but guaranteed to be manufactured if a deposit was placed dogs can definitely not. There is no way to make sure that amount of pups are born or even to make sure the bitch conceived and whelped and raised all those paid for puppies. Yes companies can go in to receivership go bankrupt and so forth but it isn't very common and would be considered a very minimal risk. But placing deposits on not yet conceived pups? How would a breeder know how many deposits to take? and what of the disappointment or despair of those wait who miss out and what of their deposits? How long were they waiting? To enter into such contract what would be a reasonable waiting period to receive their part paid for product? (speaking legally). Obviously to those on a waiting list sometimes get disappointed to. But they are not placed at any risk financially. So while it is sad and disappointing it is also to bad because no promise or contract was made. You can not go to Sony and place a deposit on a TV that might get made in the future sometime maybe 5 yrs from now with no certainty of even being considered. That's ridiculous and it would be consider the same financial value legally. Now on my personal views I think it would also be cruel to a puppy owner to require a deposit on that same situation. This is a potentially their next love of their lives and every time the breeders bitch got pregnant their hopes would be lifted only to miss out due to whatever reason (cause there are so many to list) and this could happen over and over again. And that puppy buyer may feel obligated to keep waiting and waiting turning away from other suitable pups because they can't get out of their contract without financial loss. That hardly seems fair nor legal. And I think this would cause more problems with just going to a pet shop/byb if this sort of situation became common within the purebred world. I understand that a breeder may wish some certainty as well and there is so much heartache they go though. But they chose to breed and they chose that breed of dog knowing they can't keep and entire litter so they rely on the public for placing the other pups. Just as we know we can loose our bitch if something goes wrong and there is no one to blame but ourselves cause it was our choice to breed her. Not hers and not the public. It's a choice we make everytime we plan a litter and it is on our heads to do what we can to place those puppies not 'dangle a mouse in front of a cat' just because it makes us feel better about what we do. And that's why I don't think it is a good idea to have deposits prior to birth.

Pretty sure that's illegal. If you take a deposit and you or the other party decide not to go through with it at anytime prior to the collection of the deposit it has to be explain that some of the deposit may be retained if the buyer calls the deal off. This has to be a reasonable amount such as the re-advertisement fees ect. For example I have a common and sort after breed so I can expect a lot of calls for pups. I do ask for a deposit as one small part of sifting though the keen/ spare of the moment/ and committed buyers. I do not collect prior to having the pups on the ground. My policy is approx 15% of the asking price not neg. the deposit is fully refundable until the pups are 6 weeks of age. After that I will retain 25% of the deposit should the buyer decide against having the pup. This is for re-advertising and adjustments (bank fees, phone calls). I decided for it to be at 6 weeks for 2 reasons, one usually the litter will be sold by this time and advertising revoked. Secondly and more importantly I want to know who is serious when I start assessing the pups for their homes. Not all pups within one litter are ok for every person who buys a pup. Temperaments need to be assessed, homes have requirements (small children, active lifestyle, elderly). And yes 1 cancellation can throw a spanner in the works. A full refund at anytime if I was to decide not to sell. And the reasons possible were death or injury of a pup, pup not deemed healthy genetically and/or physically and/or mentally, not suitable for their needs by my assessment ect. My last litter I had a family keen for my blue boy. and while it was suited he was an exceptional pup. I had another family who had a child medical issue in the family and Blue would have suited them to the T. However their Doctor advised them that is wasn't a good idea. whilst i don't think the doctor valued the companionship a dog could provide this child it was their choice and I respected that however they respected me and made sure of all this was sorted before the 6 week mark and decide to pull out with a full refund. also had another pull out due to it being an impulsive buy and they forgot they were going overseas 6 mths later. (don't ask me how they forgot) But this was also sorted prior to 6 weeks and refunded in full. I made sure before any acc details were handed over that the buyer knew the process by telling them and in the email with my acc details in it (for a written record). I didn't have any issues with this. My point is I don't think you can legally retain the entire deposit unless the process has caused you substantial financial grief to the amount or more the the deposit at their direct fault. Selling the pup to someone else at the same amount would not qualify.

I have decided to breed my girl back to back. Her last litter was April. The pups went to homes late may beginning of June it took us a month or so to decide to back to back. The first reason is because the bitch did so well, second reason is I kept a pup from that litter and it was decided another follow on would be good to expand my kennel. This was my first litter and I started with just my male and my girl and have kept one of their daughters. We have a very good complimentary male lined up for my girls second litter. Due to my location I don't have access to 1 hour prog results, its an over night sent away thing. This along with my bitch having a split season and breeding on day 40 (since first show of blood, but day 10 on second clear show of blood) My litter will be due if everything is successful 12th Nov so litter will now be able to be homed around 7th jan pending actual date of birth. God I was sooooooooo ect relieved. My first question when she came in season the first time to my mentor is what do I do about the Xmas puppy buyers. she would have been due late oct putting puppies able to be homed xmas week. I have been lucky and a couple of my pups from last litter have had great public interaction that I am starting to develop a waiting list but there is 3 on there now. Ruby's last litter was 8 and I keep 1. I was terrified of the whole idea of selling and advertising any pup at this time of year. My mentors advice is hold them until the new year regardless maybe let the one on the waiting list have thiers but all others are to wait. She has a litter due a week before and will hold them until the new year as well. Any one not willing to wait just that week or 2 would just have to go else where. She has also told me that I may find people not ready for a pup due to holiday trips during that week and will ask me to hold until the last week of the holidays. "the last big family outing before they have a young dog, that consumes time and money" thing. This I am more than willing to do. I advertise in a number of places I don't have a reputation yet (but getting one a very good one it seems) and I can't rely on word of mouth and this website alone.

You sound like your bragging??? I don't import either I breed a very common breed but others don't and they do rely on the american genepool. Compassion doesn't hurt nor does a bit of tact.

I totally understand that and lines are a lot more complicated then my post gives them credit. But if this does go though and it is exactly as it stands. Until they fix it, Breeders will have to reassess how they are going to go forward. Maybe just import semen?? I would hate to be in that position and I do hope that some sort of common sense prevails here. But if it doesn't I wish all the breeders affected the strength and determination to carry on. Where there is a will there is a way.

If their reasoning is to stop unhealthy pets getting sold what ever way possible then Yay for it but It presents multiple complications. Selling internationally chances are the buyer is not going to have a friend or relative able to inspect. Thankfully the USA isn't the only place to import from. I understand a lot of breeders are going to be put out and have to re-adjust their lines or possibly start over or pay extra to inspect. But it won't doom breeding for Australians. Anyway ya might be able to get the US breeder to drive to Canada or Mexico and send them from there LMAO! the down side of being a country connected to other countries who do not have the same rules.

I'm not 100% on the import process but I have seen comments about Agents at the other end?? Maybe they will extend thier service to inspect the animal at pick up or prior to??? Obviously that would be another fee but how else would they provide thier current services in the US if this does apply to most breeders cause alot would have more then 4 breeders? not sure but just a thought,