Angeluca

Well Ruby has gone from a little belly to pop! Belly pic, tried to get her to stand but she didn't want pic and a before this all happened pic.

Apparently they have the same requirements as us breeders. The thing is they fight it, with high price speed talking lawyers the find the technicalities to get their client off, as the would do if they were hired by one of us. The problem is that these pet shops are liable for a genetic fault in an animal like Cavs and the brain pressure thing or epilepsy in pugs or HD in lab/ GR crosses. They are state there return policy which actually isn't worth the paper it's printed on according to the ACL lady. But since they make these bold /false statements and they are a corporation no one questions them or tries to fight. Most don't know they can!!!!! those that do settle out of court with a signed privacy statement for a nice payout!!! there is more then enough claim, in the case of a cav that's head is too small for it's brain 9 mths down the track. (no chance of environmental factors there). People just need to know when and who to fight and those against pet shops need to make it public. Breeders don't have the financial backing to intimidate. I would love to line up 5 lawyers in a negotiation for someone trying to take me for everything unlawfully. I would never have the resources to.

thanks

The Brochure that started my concern : http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/ConsumerProtection/PDF/Publications/A_consumers_guide_to_buying_a_pet.pdf And the Response I made in the other topic: Ok Multiple phone calls later we have arrived at. ACL commission is not a legal Identity and can not force payment or remedy of any kind, they can act as a mediator at negotiations failing that the person pursuing has to then engage legal advice and take the matter to court. These things I discussed with every person I spoke to and I stopped short of An appointment with a lawyer. Most would not offer legal advice but mentioned a few things that may help. This is what I have come to based on advice and information mentioned. The ACL is a consumer guideline and does not into specifics or circumstance, And just like any other product 'length of time' is deemed by court. Which usually refers back to contractual law. This is where people give in and not defend themselves due to 'it not being worth it' or not knowing their rights. Contractual Law does not give any purchaser endless guarantee. Nor is it solely sided with the purchaser. If the matter is taken to court then the pursuer is the one who has to prove their case, and the defendant has to prove only the claims against him false. There are steps to protect/defend breeders, one being Full disclosure, of know problems in the breed, what is regarded as needing test and these test results copied and supplied. (This should be standard) Most of the time this is verbalized. This needs to be written up as 'You have supplied information about breed problems, and verbally explained in detail your efforts and the possibilities of occurrence despite your best effort, and the possible environmental factors, And you have provided written and verbal prevention steps.' you keep signed copy Have documented well written Articles on each disease/ Illness which cover all aspects of the illness most of all types of onset from hereditary to environmental through to age. Name these articles in the disclosure statement as provided. This is not a Waiver but a Full Disclosure Statement. The puppy buyer may still have a case against you, and take you to court but this becomes evidence of your effort to inform prior to purchase and reduces their case sufficiently. It would also be good to know your stock's heritage. This it sometimes very hard, and some breeders try to cover any problems or just not mention them. But if it is not common knowledge then you are not expected to know. It may still make liable if something serious occurred but could reduce the amount. And of course your testing and preventative measures also are considered. You then provide a guarantee of what steps you deem possible form you side if in fact a hereditary situation arises within a certain time period. Do not make this endless, and important to contact a contractual Lawyer for advice as to how long this guarantee should be for statutory purposes. You can go as far as to state a couple of options and say you'll discuss options viable at the time if need be. (Some you may be happy to replace an animal some you just would not). By contacting a lawyer and determining a reasonable 'statutory liability period' it would be best to determine each illness but breed as a whole would be enough. The lawyer may not be dog savvy so as much breed info as possible based on factual documentation not just personal experience (the articles previously mentioned, ANKC conformation information, life expectancy, age of purchase, vet clean bill of health at sale and Price of dog sold will all help determine a time period reasonable) you keep signed copy It Seems this sort of thing will be necessary in the future for all breeders to protect themselves from unwarranted claims. And doing all this will not prevent you from being pursued and diminishes their case against you. Most large or expensive items have disclosure statements, most common products don't due to price and circumstance. There is usually precedent giving a basic idea from item to item giving a "normal process" from situation to circumstance. There is very little with an animal because the idea of suing over a family pets health is basically new or settled out of court. Rights of either party is not common knowledge either which also prevents the development of the "Normal process" and "expectation of the provider". By giving up money or replacement animals at any age because 'it's not worth the fight' or 'it's better for the animal this way' or 'I can't afford the legal process' or 'It's too stressful' is giving a normal process of owner complains money is handed over, They can legally claim medical expenses at there preference and there is not stated limit, and it is not just refund the money to be done with it anymore. We are going to create a norm of breeder fault by admission, or we are going to have to set legal boundaries. Once it gets to be public knowledge that owners can receive compensation on dogs they have or nature has defected. Claims will be a virus and just like schools not providing or allowing certain sports activities for fear of being sued, Breeders will stop breeding for fear of liability.

Ok Multiple phone calls later we have arrived at. ACL commission is not a legal Identity and can not force payment or remedy of any kind, they can act as a mediator at negotiations failing that the person pursuing has to then engage legal advice and take the matter to court. These things I discussed with every person I spoke to and I stopped short of An appointment with a lawyer. Most would not offer legal advice but mentioned a few things that may help. This is what I have come to based on advice and information mentioned. The ACL is a consumer guideline and does not into specifics or circumstance, And just like any other product 'length of time' is deemed by court. Which usually refers back to contractual law. This is where people give in and not defend themselves due to 'it not being worth it' or not knowing their rights. Contractual Law does not give any purchaser endless guarantee. Nor is it solely sided with the purchaser. If the matter is taken to court then the pursuer is the one who has to prove their case, and the defendant has to prove only the claims against him false. There are steps to protect/defend breeders, one being Full disclosure, of know problems in the breed, what is regarded as needing test and these test results copied and supplied. (This should be standard) Most of the time this is verbalized. This needs to be written up as 'You have supplied information about breed problems, and verbally explained in detail your efforts and the possibilities of occurrence despite your best effort, and the possible environmental factors, And you have provided written and verbal prevention steps.' you keep signed copy Have documented well written Articles on each disease/ Illness which cover all aspects of the illness most of all types of onset from hereditary to environmental through to age. Name these articles in the disclosure statement as provided. This is not a Waiver [/u] but a Full Disclosure Statement. The puppy buyer may still have a case against you, and take you to court but this becomes evidence of your effort to inform prior to purchase and reduces their case sufficiently. It would also be good to know your stock's heritage. This it sometimes very hard, and some breeders try to cover any problems or just not mention them. But if it is not common knowledge then you are not expected to know. It may still make liable if something serious occurred but could reduce the amount. And of course your testing and preventative measures also are considered. You then provide a guarantee of what steps you deem possible form you side if in fact a hereditary situation arises within a certain time period. Do not make this endless, and important to contact a contractual Lawyer for advice as to how long this guarantee should be for statutory purposes. You can go as far as to state a couple of options and say you'll discuss options viable at the time if need be. (Some you may be happy to replace an animal some you just would not). By contacting a lawyer and determining a reasonable 'statutory liability period' it would be best to determine each illness but breed as a whole would be enough. The lawyer may not be dog savvy so as much breed info as possible based on factual documentation not just personal experience (the articles previously mentioned, ANKC conformation information, life expectancy, age of purchase, vet clean bill of health at sale and Price of dog sold will all help determine a time period reasonable) you keep signed copy It Seems this sort of thing will be necessary in the future for all breeders to protect themselves from unwarranted claims. And doing all this will not prevent you from being pursued and diminishes their case against you. Most large or expensive items have disclosure statements, most common products don't due to price and circumstance. There is usually precedent giving a basic idea from item to item giving a "normal process" from situation to circumstance. There is very little with an animal because the idea of suing over a family pets health is basically new or settled out of court. Rights of either party is not common knowledge either which also prevents the development of the "Normal process" and "expectation of the provider". By giving up money or replacement animals at any age because 'it's not worth the fight' or 'it's better for the animal this way' or 'I can't afford the legal process' or 'It's too stressful' is giving a normal process of owner complains money is handed over, They can legally claim medical expenses at there preference and there is not stated limit, and it is not just refund the money to be done with it anymore. We are going to create a norm of breeder fault by admission, or we are going to have to set legal boundaries. Once it gets to be public knowledge that owners can receive compensation on dogs they have or nature has defected. Claims will be a virus and just like schools not providing or allowing certain sports activities for fear of being sued, Breeders will stop breeding for fear of liability.

this thread concerns me deeply I have my second litter due in a few weeks. The consumer law regarding pets is vague, and states in it's brochure it's not like buying other goods. My guarantee was if one of my pups pull up with an illness and it is proven to be genetic that I would refund the purchase price and they would keep the animal. I specifically mention that HD and ED can be hereditary that I have done everything I can and I then state certain things they can do to prevent environmental, but the is all Verbal. Going by that brochure it does not specify that it would enough, it says 'pay medical bills' which we know most genetic illnesses run into $2000 + and can be ongoing. I don't even sell my pups at $1500. I am going to ring the consumer law agency and get some age and price limits on compensation claims. Then write up an agreement to as Steve says get it signed as sighted and provide them a copy. at the time they sign the limited register form. Another question I am going to ask is if I provide the 6 week pet insurance does that provide me with some protection against compensation claims. If I come back with anything interesting or of use I will let yous know.

I did a quick search to find this law within the act. All I could find in a that vague brochure which is written in the purchaser's point of view and has no definition on terminology. At one point it says an animal must survive past a length of time. What length of time giants are lucky to last to 10-15 yrs, small breeds last 15 + on good health Cats last can til late 20's It does not specify if the repairs are in full or to the amount of the purchase price or price at that time to replace which is what most products are Valued in repairs. Past that it is at owners discretion. These things matter when the situation arises. Then we come back to what Steve is saying, Guilt has to be proven, and if a breeder has done all tests, and bred from stock not know specifically for the illness then that would be grounds for all means possible to prevent. Any one wanting to object to this please provide Actual written law, or provide a case study where the breeder has been proven to be at fault after testing and stock heritage. Maybe these are cases where a breeder has just given in and paid refunds without returns or medical expenses. Or have been given bad advice by lawyers (which could be cause they can't be bothered doing the research and fighting, or unfamiliar with the law itself). Either way Unless a court has ordered that a breeder who has done everything possible and can prove that (which shouldn't be hard if they have done), pay and be liable for everything, It's not law. Our country is based on the idea of proven guilty, (which would mean in a dog, not done testing on parents known for certain common illnesses, or bred from affected dogs or known lines of many affected dogs). I know most breeders don't want the court proceedings and try to come to some agreement or give in to demands, bad for reps or whatever, but just because the paid up doesn't make them guilty or make it law. Maybe more of Breeders should stand up and not be bullied. Cause that's exactly what it is. Puppy owners and lawyers bulling breeders with legal letters and threats. ACL is Australian wide so WA should adhere to what the rest of the country is doing otherwise it's grounds for an appeal. And i know that was a bit scattered and in badly written and constructed but it's late and i'm tired and typing whatever crossed my mind at the time.

Unfortunately this is not possible. The Australian Consumer Laws would need to be changed in order for that to happen. A breeder cannot contract out of their lawful responsibilities. If the law says that a breeder must offer certain guarantees then that is the case. Getting a purchaser to sign a contract absolving the breeder of any liability is not legal or enforceable. Under current ACL laws, the animal does not have to die or be euthanased for the breeder to be required to compensate an owner. If the dog is sold with a pre-existing condition even if that condition has not yet manifest itself; ie is one that will become apparent with time... OR if the dog has at the time of sale, or later develops a problem that has a genetic component then the breeder may be liable to compensate the owner. If the dog is ill or incubating an illness at the time of sale then the breeder can be required to compensate the owner. Can you quote the law your stating and not just from experience, Law can be tricky as it can be a basic yet vague in terminology, it is up to the lawyers to interpret those laws to convince the judge in favor of their client, the vaguer the written law the more open to interpretation.

What about titles of well known books or fables, to go with the theme from the dam. How many letters in your prefix?

This happens all the time I was advized by a specialist to fuse my boys hips at 8 mths because he may get HD later his opinion is his joints were loose, he also said golden pups are known for loose hips as pups but they are also known for HD which is why he recommended the fusion. He is Highly regarded and respected in QLD. the op is surgically fusing the growth plate in the hips the prevent the hip from expanding out with age as they normally would. It keeps them very slightly angled. this operation can only be done at age 8-9 mths. it is not guaranteed has a success rate of 80% and is purely preventative. (so who it to say that 80% would have got HD anyway)Oh and the op cost aprox $3000, once done Hip scores for Breeding are impossible. My boy has good hip scores 5/7 and is coming up to 4 with fantastic free movement.

Yes I know these get posted all the time but this is an organization who are in contact with actual owners, not just copy and paste from other stories. 80% of people live in rentals and not allowed to re-fence existing fences. and bolt cutters make easy work of pad locks and chains. this organization has a section on theft prevention and containment advice. Fences and locks are great cameras and knowing your neighbors also helps.

Yep same people

I just got access to this forum, and was hoping to join this thread. I'm hoping for goldens on the 12th, doing a wait and see but all signs point to Yes. even getting a belly to.

People think it doesn't exist cause there are irresponsible people out there who have a dog not properly contained and out of embarrassment or ignorance say it was stolen. If a dog gets loose, they end up claimed by passer by, impounded and sometimes put to sleep or run over if they don't just return home. If a dog gets stolen it could be for fights and baiting, deep seeded psychotic issues, or breeding. these animals can face extreme torture before death. Far less occurrence of actual theft but it does happen and people need to stop just assuming it was owner fault cause if it isn't then the situation will most likely end very bad for the dog.

Queenslanders Against Dog Theft & Fighting Rings 5 hours ago WARNING – ATTEMPTED THEFT – BURPENGARY (Nth Brisbane) – TWO men both of stocky build and of Asian appearance were seen by the owner at their gate holding a MUZZLE, LEAD & STEAK trying to entice an ENITRE MALE ENGLISH POINTER who had alerted his owner by barking at the men. When the owner approached the men they commented ‘THAT'S A NICE AGGRESSIVE DOG YOU HAVE THERE, WHAT BREED?’. The owner told them they were trespassing and asked them to leave, which they did, she did not hear a car but was distracted checking her yard for possible bait. She has since made her yard more secure with locks and cameras, POLICE and local council have been informed . PLEASE take these warnings seriously, everything we post has been verified with the witness directly. Please take preventative action to secure your yards – for info and ideas please see www.qlddogtheft.com Also on their site SUSPECTED STOLEN – YANDINA (SUNSHINE COAST) – ELVIS a MALE ENTIRE BLUE GREAT DANE (Picture on Facebook site) is suspected stolen from his acreage yard on WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 2nd. Elvis is CHIPPED and wearing a COLLAR with COUNCIL TAGS. His best friend, female Great Dane Priscilla was left in the yard, very distressed and not wearing her collar. Elvis has not been sighted since his disappearance, despite his owners going to great lengths to find him. If you HAVE SEEN ELVIS, please contact the Queenslanders Against Dog Theft & Fighting Rings facebook page. For information on how to keep dogs safe see

Now you have correct spelling try google, you may find another Trenlie and then track the lines if possible http://www.boxerpedigrees.info/details.php?id=92462 I found this Trenlie dog from google. Which has kerribrook and Charmore in the breeding. A google of Kerribrook brings up Breeder Tony Valli, a show judge whom it says is still judging and bred boxers since 1960s. May be a long shot but it's a start to tracking down old lines.

Sadly it was posted with the name 'Harry the crazy dog' and comment states 'I moved the bin to see if he would still do it, Me thinks hes special' I didn't think the link would work sadly. When he trots around he is swishing is tag high (sort like a wag) and he has a nice bouncy step. but i think it is as Nek said and boredom + energy which will lead to obessive compulsive if is hasn't already. I will make the comment, but they are pretty "knowledgeable people" and I feel it will fall on arrogant ears.

her privacy settings are high so not sure if you will be able to view. it will only be up for a short while so I can get some info on opinions.

Well my cousin just posted a clip on FB of her cattle dog trotting in circles. It has worn a track into the ground. It used to do it going around a wheelie bin so no more then a one and a half meters wide. she moved the bin and recorded the dog doing the same track. he is young less the 18 mths, I don't know if he is walked and appears healthy. His tail is high, and he seems pleasantly trotting around in a small circle, Just like a dog would if they were happily walking down the road and a reasonable pase. no whinning no and doesn't seem stressed. I haven't said anything yet and she is a BYB on occasion of cattle dogs, appear 'pure' but not on any registry. She looks after her dogs and doesn't just spin out pups for money, but does the whole well I have a girl and a boy so why not. It seems to be instilled into the family her mum used to do the same with CKCs and her sister is now completely fascinated with breeding and raising birds. I don't think she has a girl as her other one died from a snake bite last year, and her other boy is about 7-8 yrs. They have 5 kids oldest being 10 youngest 1. Back to this dog, he has access to a yard of reasonable size and I know they dogs are allowed inside but i think they sleep outside at night. This to me isn't normal behavior and not sure if a comment from me would be appreciated. But if i was to comment what links should i advise her though. If this is in fact something to be concerned about?? Can't link the page due to her privacy setting and can't download it on to my computer either.

http://www.wimp.com/huskybaby/ The cutest thing Ive seen since the Husky and the leaves, they look like they have their own language and Husky looks like it enjoys talking to someone.

What a very annoying situation for both you and the stud owner. I've recently used a stud and we have it agreed to pay on birth, We are friends tho don't most ask for payment at visit?

It's things like this that make me think everyone who says dogs can't experience 'human' emotions??? Whats classified human emotions? happy, sad, angry, excited, playful, fearful, malicious, mourning, sensitive, trusting, kind, ect Just has humans have I believe dogs have evolved mentally, I think it's more then just instinct and genetic impression. I believe it's in some dogs more then others just as intellect. How many times have we seen it in our dogs and how many times has a dog gone above and beyond for a human thay care for. Wild animals will abandon offspring if it means saving their own lives yet some pets will put themselves in direct harms way for a human and I'm not talking trained guard dogs but random dogs like the ones who will attack a mountain lion to save a child, (in the news in america or Canada years ago). Wild dogs have a harshness needed for their environment in it takes generations to tip that behavior, But our dogs have had hundreds of generations away from that environment. Enough I believe to evolve their emotional responses and actions. Things like prey drive was continued with in a lot of breeds so basic natural behaviors still exist, but what would have been guaranteed in every dog in the wild does not occur these days, there are huskys, GSDs, Greyhounds and many bull breeds who were bred and developed on those instincts but can produce an entire litter with no drive at all not even a basic survival backup mod. Other wise places over run with stray starving dogs would have packs stalking and killing the easiest target (un armed human) But there are some that can barely move cause they haven't ate in quite some time.

Could have ended so much worse! And what lovely Neighbors and helpful Ranger as some would have just said take in to the pound and not bothered assisting further. Lucky Ginger, And good on you.

I love the side link of the GSD listening to a Husky

They are in the US. Do they ship to Australia, and what's the shipping price? I think petco does but can't find the info, but this is another that defiantly does and has it at bit more and p&h to aus but no idea on cost to send. http://www.petsmart.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=agility&origkw=agility&sr=1&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No other wise there are a couple on ebay for around $100 wit $12-$26 P&H not sure which would be better or easier.