Cavalier

Incorrect. The immune system is actually stimulated by the administration of a vaccination - otherwise you would not get any immune response. This is the exact reason many dogs get a lump at the injection site. This lump is not a "reaction" as such, it is the body responding to the modified live virus by sending lots of white blood cells to the area. These white blood cells are the ones that recognise the virus and develop antibodies against it. Why dont we vaccinate dogs when they are sick? Because if the immune system is busy fighting one disease, you are unlikely to get a good immune response from the vaccine if it is administered. Its not so much that it is detrimental to the dog - its just a waste of a vaccine. We have a very transient population so its difficult to say. I have calculated that we vaccinate approximately 10 000 dogs per year. This is enough experience is most peoples books to make a pretty good judgement about vaccine reactions...

Im sorry Erny, but yes we can claim your dogs diseases were most likely not caused by vaccinating. The reason being - nobody is yet to find any link in any study on dogs that vaccinating causes any of these diseases. It seems to me that everyone has jumped on the bandwagon of "vaccinations cause every disease imaginable". This to me does not make sense! Animals can lose immunity over time to certain diseases. This is well documented with many vaccinations. I personally have a booster for tetanus every 5 years. I do titre tests regularly and dogs titres for hepatitis and and distemper are commonly below protective levels. Yes I completely understand about memory cells etc - but we cannot measure this therefore I cannot guarantee my clients that their dogs are immune. This argument is not about whether we should vaccinate every year or not - we have already established we dont need to. This argument is about the claim everyone is making about the "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination.

So if these severe life threating reactions to vaccines are so common, why arent vets like myself, and my good friends (who I discuss these things with regularly) have NEVER seen anything more severe than a swollen face or a local reaction at the site of vaccination??? As I have stated before, I personally vaccinate approximately 100 dogs/pups every week, my colleague at the practice does the same. That equals 10400 dogs per year on average. Thats a pretty good sample size if you ask me.....

Im yet to see one....

What is she on cortisone for? Corticosteroids can have many side effects however they are very effective and useful drugs when used with caution. They should be given in the morning to prevent insomnia. Usually they are started off at a high dose (to get maximum effect) then are tapered down to a maintenance dose, where you will see much less side effects. One of my girls has been on prednisolone for 5 years now. 10mg every 3rd day. At this dose no side effects are seen, and she has blood tests done every year to check her liver and kidneys for any side effects.

So don't get mad with me for asking you to clarify or back up the information you provide. I have an inquiring mind too. :rolleyes: Turns out Dr Jean Dodds is much more conservative in what she claims about vaccine side effects than many people on this thread have been (although obviously much more convinced of the importance of vaccine side effects than many vets are)... interesting to get the info straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks for the email address, Oakway. Star - could you please PM me what Jean Dodds had to say in regards to vaccination side effects? Jed - none of the links you have provided for me to look at showed any evidence of vaccinations causing cancer etc - just someones opinion. Im sorry but that is not enough for me.

Hmm, didn't think the vets needed to "stand up for their profession". Where was the profession questioned? I must have missed that. *sigh* She's published I dunno how many papers, some is opinion, a lot is researched facts. *sigh* And dare I add that she is respected pretty much universally for those facts and that "opinion". In science nobody is respected for their opinion. You need this little thing called evidence - and Jean Dodds is yet to provide any evidence that vaccines cause cancer, epilepsy, hypoT etc

I do not disregard the research, but I am yet to see any reputable research paper which shows that dogs remain immune for life after only a puppy course. I've seen a few: Showing protection lasting at least 3 years after puppy course in the majority of animals, challenge and serological studies: * Gill, M., Srinivas, J., Morozov, I., Smith, J., Anderson, C., Glover, S., Champ, D., & Chu, H.-J. (2004). Three-year duration of immunity for canine distemper, adenovirus, and parvovirus after vaccination with a multivalent canine vaccine. The International Journal of Applied Research in Veterinary Medicine, 2, 227 - 234. 32 pups challenged 3 years after their puppy C3 course from Fort Dodge. * Mouzin, D. E., Lorenzen, M. J., D, H. J., & King, V. L. (2004). Duration of serological response to five viral antigens in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, 224, 55 - 60. Three core antibodies last longer than 3 years in 98% of the dogs tested. Showing protection lasting 3 - 7 years in the majority of animals, serology study: * Twark, L., & Dodds, W. K. (2000). Clinical use of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association 217, 1021 - 1024. 95% of the 1441 dogs surveyed had protective parvo titres, and 98% had protective CDV titres. A large proportion of the dogs had recieved their last adult vaccine between 3 and 7 years before. It's not conclusive, of course, not at all. Unfortunately none of the study groups titred directly after vaccination, so we have no idea if the dogs that weren't immune when challenged with the virus at the end of the protocol never seroconverted, or whether they were once immune but lost their immunity over time. The puppy challenge studies also don't challenge any of the pups one year after vaccination, so we have no idea whether the vaccines were as protective after 3 year as they would have been at 1 year post vaccination, which could be very relevant information in a high parvo area. And nothing I've found tested dogs more than 7 years after vaccination. But some reasonable research on that topic is out there. What I haven't seen is any good evidence proving that vaccines cause cancer, allergies, or thyroid issues in dogs, although the hypothetical link between these problems and vaccination is often quoted as if they are fact. Whenever I ask, people either link me to an unreferenced website, they say "Jean Dodds says so!" but can't give link to where she has published any evidence, quote me a study that doesn't exist or doesn't prove anything at all, or are just too busy to find me the references. But everyone assures me that the evidence is out there if I just keep looking. Kind of like the X-files. :D These studies did not show that the dogs were immune for life - just 3-7 years. As a professional I cannot go around telling my clients that they never need to vaccinate their dogs again after 15 months, when there is no scientific evidence to support this method, and when no vaccines are registered for use in this way. It would leave us open legally on a massive scale. There is no evidence that vaccines cause any of these diseases, that why you cant find any Yes Dr Jean Dodds may be an "expert" however the rest of us, as professionals have every right to question her research and ask for evidence. The fact is a lot of her "research" does not have any evidence - just her opinion. Blind faith is not what we as vets should be making our decisions on. Vets did not go to her conference because she is not particularly well respected as a scientist because of the way she preaches "fact" to dog breeders when it is really just her own opinion, with nothing to back it up.

I do not disregard the research, but I am yet to see any reputable research paper which shows that dogs remain immune for life after only a puppy course. What a lot of people arent realising that a lot of this vaccination debate is stemming from extremely bad science. This is what concerns me - that people are taking what is very poor research, and mostly opinions and taking it as gospel.

If most of the website do not have references - then they are not reputable. Period. I am not saying I advocate annual vaccination - I do not vaccinate my own animals annually. I do however not believe that dogs should have one puppy course of vaccines and that is it. The research I have read in regards to vaccinations has stated that it is extremely variable as to how long a dog remains immune to certain diseases after vaccinating. These studies were done by infecting animals in laboratory condition with parvovirus x number of years after vaccinating. I would never let my dog go its whole life without titre testing. IMHO it is irresponsible. Also - I never said I have been a vet for 20 years, doesnt take away from the fact that even a vet with only 1-2 years of experience will see more dogs vaccinated than a breeder in their whole breeding career.

It seems to be that people with very little scientific knowledge are attempting to interpret scientific reports and are interpreting the results rather incorrectly. You have to remember that these are almost all hypotheses - not "fact", none of it has been scientifically proven. Cavandra blames thyroid problems on vaccines, however in this letter they claimed the rabies vaccination caused the production of anti-thyroglobulin antibodies. Then explain this to me.....why in Australia - where we do not routinely vaccinate for rabies, do we still very commonly see hypothyroidism??? Jed - we will just have to disagree on this one. Veterinary Medicine has changed completely since the 1970s and 80s. Cancer was largely unstudied in dogs and cats back then. "New" diseases are not necessarily new, it just that they have now been documented and studied, or scientists have found a test for a previously "undiagnosable" condition. Cavandra - if I found out one of my bitches did not have protective titres of antibodies before mating, she would not be mated! Not all dogs keep their immunity for life. It ranges dramatically from 1 year to 10+ years. As far as experience goes - vets have experience as well I vaccinate approximately 100 dogs per week and have for many years. The worst adverse reaction I have seen was a swollen face 1 hour after vaccination, and a local reaction at the vaccination site. No seizures 3 months after, no IMHA, no death. As for Proheart - which I also do about 100 injections a week, I have NEVER seen a reaction tot his injection. We would know if any dog/cat had a reaction as we are the closest vet for 400kms and we have fantastic clients who are very attentive to their pets. It is very dangerous that people without a scientific background are interpreting scientific data, and taking it as gospel. That is not what science is about.

I can only say that why would I titer them?I have never heard of any valid reason to. Many dogs can never get immunity from vaccines no matter how many times you jab them (that goes hand in hand with those breeds prone to immune disorders especially, and their crosses), many folk believe if their dog had a "needle" then its immune ........I think that many of the adult dog parvo cases you have seen would more than likely come under this banner, of course this can not be proved nor disproved ....... The only cases of parvo I have ever seen have been in unvaccinated pups or those given vaccines too early at age 6 weeks. I dont vaccinate myself against hepatitis, measles, colds etc each year, why would I do my dogs Once my dogs have memory cells they have them for life, these can not be measured by any test! A titer can measure if there has been any response recently in the dog, ie that they have either recently been vaccinated or they have been actually exposed to the diseases tested for.......if the dog has not had exposure the titer should be very low if at all. Adverse reactions are rarely documented & are usually swept under the carpet, it would be quite easy in reality if all dogs had reactions instantly to be able to say "yes vaccines are harmful", however the real harm comes much later, as the experts in the field will say thyroid dysfunction is one of the great symptoms, cancers, skin conditions etc...... It is like the annual heartworm shot, I cant count how many dogs have seizures due to this.......because the adverse reaction doesnt happen within a week of the shot necessarily then of course the seizures are not related to the shot, yet the most common senario tends to be 3 months after! Detox these dogs through homeopathic vets & "miracles" often occur! Again are these things reported & documented?????? No! Proheart 6 was banned overseas, and now its back in use with the only difference being the client has to sign a form understanding their dog might have adverse reactions or die.......Proheart 12 is happily administered here! There are so many "coincidences" with the annual vaccines being pushed on the public to the introduction of healthy pedigree dogs becoming prone to cancer , leukaemia, thyroid etc etc etc........Same as the coincidences" of perfectly healthy , normal human babies becoming autistic after vaccination. My dogs one by one contracted canine cough at one time....the annually vaccinated C5 Staffy next door gave it to them, this dog hacked its lungs up for 2 weeks & went to the Vet twice for treatment.....My dogs coughed lightly & slightly for 2-3 days, and my oldest dog (therefore the most unvaccinated one LOL) didnt get it at all! My dogs had garlic crushed in mannuka honey & Ester C tablets as their treatment. In fairness I must also add that my dogs are raw fed, so again their immune systems are functioning at full speed You didnt answer my question.... how do you know if your pups are getting antibodies in the colostrum?? If the bitch does not have any circulating antibodies, they cannot give the pups any either. B cells (memory cells) cannot be transferred through the colostrum. Not testing your bitches titres prior to mating is leaving the resulting pups very vulnerable to disease.

Good lord. I work in a high parvo area and we would be lucky to have treated perhaps a dozen cases in the past year. How on earth do your nurses manage with that many cases?! Barrier nursing is so time consuming. You must have a pretty big isolation ward too! Certainly do!

I would be very concerned that there is still a piece of skewer stuck in his throat, especially if he yelps every time he moves his neck. Are you able to open his mouth up very wide and have a look down there? If you can, get hold of some Amoxycillin/Clavulinic acid injectables. I cant see the poor little guy being able to take tablets. The dose is 15-20mg/kg body weight. IV fluids would also be very useful.

The thing is, whilst Titre testing is a good tool/measure (ie if it shows positive for immunity levels), just because it shows negative doesn't mean the animal doesn't have protection. This is where I believe the discussion would move on to the topic of "cell memory". The problem is that we are all so frightened of our dogs NOT having immunity that we keep bombarding their systems with the vaccinations which doesn't help their immune system and affects them for so many other things that dogs are suffering (more now days than ever before), cancer being just one of them, but also allergies, thyroid issues, etc. etc. Over-vaccinating can have the affect of actually WEAKENING the system, as opposed to bolstering it as many would like to believe. There will, IMO, never be a guarantee to anything, but I think we need to put at least some trust to puppy vaccinations promoting immunity (and titre testing can assist, in some or many instances). It is a weigh of balance and more and more research is coming to the fore of how we are making our dogs sick by trying to keep them healthy. In one of the very many discussion on this subject even just here on DOL, I have read of not only one person who has had pups that WERE vaccinated, contract parvo, whereas other of her dogs who were NOT vaccinated (I'm talking boosters, here) did NOT contract it. So to suggest that dogs contracted parvo because regular (yearly or otherwise) boosters were not administered is, I think, only supposition. Yes - however if you dont know if the bitch has any circulating antibodies how can you know if she has enough in her colostrum for the pups? Memory cells are NOT transferred through the colostrum. Can you please link me to a reputable study that suggests vaccines cause allergies, thyroid problems and cancer? IMHO the reason why we are seeing "more" of these diseases is because diagnostics have improved, and people are more willing to spend money of their pets in this day and age - therefore more diagnoses occur. In not denying that vaccines are not without some negative effects - however I believe there has been a lot of unproven scare mongering in the dog community regarding vaccination. If this continues and the level of vaccination in the general dog community drops below a certain level, we are going to start seeing more and more parvovirus cases (as we already are) and will see the remergence of distemper and hepatitis in areas where it has not been seen for decades.

Ah, I misunderstood then, sorry. I didn't realise you were saying Cavandra should test after vaccinating to see if the dog had seroconverted originally. I thought you were saying Cavandra should titre test annually and revaccinate her dogs whenever the titres weren't still at "protective" levels. Your point about puppies is a good one and is something that some breeders don't understand or consider, IMO. Pups can't get maternal antibody protection if the dam does not have circulating antibodies to the disease. Whatever vaccine protocol a breeder chooses to use for her other dogs, giving a bitch a vaccination before breeding her can result in far better transfer passive immunity to the pups. Absolutely. Ideally a breeding bitch should be vaccinated before mating, then have a titre test to ensure their are circulating antibodies to transfer into the colostrum. The bitch may still be protected without circulating antibodies - but the pups certainly will not.

The result is surprising because it is assumed that a 4 week old puppy has an immature immune system and is unable to adequately respond to a vaccination. The risk of Parvo infection where I live is HUGE. I personally treat 10-15 cases a week. This does not include all the ones who are put down because the owner didnt want to treat. In this town, pups still catch parvo regularly after their second puppy vacc at 12 weeks. I can only assume it is because of the high dose of virus pups are being exposed to. The pups risk of catching parvo is WAY higher than any negative effects from a vaccine...

Were those animals tested after the puppy vaccines to ensure they seroconverted, though, or are we just assuming they became immune to parvo after vaccination and then lost that immunity subsequently? I doubt anyone will ever design and conduct the perfect vaccination study, but I've seen several large studies that strongly suggest vaccines tend to protect dogs for at least three years after their full puppy vaccine schedule, and haven't seen any good studies showing that adult dogs can lose their parvo immunity after showing a protective titre. Joelle, I agree with Cavalier that you should go with your vet's advice, they know the local conditions, and they know how to use the drugs that they're prescribing. If you don't trust your vet's advice, then get a second opinion from another vet - not from your breeder, who is probably well intentioned, but doesn't necessarily know much about vaccines. No they were not titre tested - and that was my point to Cavandra. How can you be certain your dogs have protection, ESPECIALLY when you are breeding pups, when you dont get any testing done and dont revaccinate???

I strongly disagree. Ive seen multiple dogs over the years who have had their puppy vaccines, then the owner got lazy and didnt get any more, then the animal contracted parvovirus at a later age. Until they have done conclusive studies involving a large sample size and using a whole range of different vaccines, I will continue to recommend either annual vaccination or annual titre testing with revaccination as required. If the vaccine is registered for use every year - this is what we have to do as professionals, doing otherwise leaves us open to legal action. I also find it very disturbing that people are listening to their breeders, over their veterinarian when it comes to health advice. Yes, breeders are a wealth of knowledge on their breed - but they are not health professionals and do not necessarily know what is best for your dogs health. Joelle - your vet is correct. Most vaccines are registered for use at 8, 12 then 16 weeks for the puppy course. I have seen a HUGE number of pups with confirmed parvo even after their second vaccine at 12 weeks. It is IMHO irresponsible of your breeder to be dolling out health advice which contradicts that of your vet.

After examining all the material, I decided to vaccinate my hand raised puppy at 4 weeks of age. He never recieved any colostrum from Mum, so didnt have to worry about maternal antibodies interferring with the vaccine. Being in a very high parvo area I was so paranoid about him contracting parvo. I gave him... 1. Virbac C3 at 4 weeks 2. Fort Dodge Parvac at 5 weeks 3. Virbac C3 at 6 weeks The same day as his second C3 I took a blood sample for titre testing. His titre came back at >1:80 Just thought this would interest others in the same situation. I feel this is a fantastic result!!

Make sure there is lots of cotton wool/softban padding underneath any bandage. Dont just put elastoplast or vetwrap directly onto the skin. The leg can swell under the bandage and cut off the circulation to the leg. There should be 3 layers of padding before any vetwrap is used.

Cavandra....do you get titre testing performed to ensure your dogs still have protective titres?

I disagree. Yes dogs can still catch kennel cough if they are vaccinated however the disease will be much less severe than if they were not vaccinated. All cases of kennel cough I have seen that developed into a pneumonia were in unvaccinated dogs.

This is my vote too

A large percentage of adrenal tumours are malignant and can grow very quickly (therefore clinical signs will worsen) and spread to other areas of the body. Adrenal Cushings does not respond as well as pituitary cushings to trilostane/mitotane therapy. IMHO, to give your dog the best chance, especially if he is in otherwise good health, I would go ahead with the surgery. I would if it was my dog.