Blackdogs

I work in the industry and one day I had a lady tell me her son had stolen a dog five years earlier from someone's yard. Her son was now in jail and she felt she could now do the right thing and return him to his rightful home. I scanned him, told her he had a microchip and she surrended him to me. When I called the owner he was in total disbelief. When he came to collect his dog there was a very moving, tearful reunion. There was no doubt the dog remembered him.

I feel like I have my hands full wih two. I fantasise about having more, but I don't think it's realistic. Both of mine are high drive dogs, I live in a suburban area and I work full time. Between the two and my cat the vet bills are a killer.

:laugh: Done.

Oh wow, that DOES give me heart. Not only that but I love pictures of old dogs!

Thanks for your input, Bilbo. It all sounds pretty complicated.

To be fair to you, you opened the thread more on the point of the extent of health issues in the Cav breed....and asked for discussion about that. As Jed & others commented it's a popular breed which has indeed led to a great deal of mindless breeding practice. With some dire results in terms of health and conformation....which basically you were picking up on. I hope the posts from the Cav breeders, who are on top of their game, has given you hope that quality effort still exists out there! :) Oh, I defintely feel heartened that there's breeders out there working tirelessly on the health of the breed. Cheers. :)

Your original question was if it's possible to find a Cav without health issues. Health problems are remarkably common across animal species....and not all are specifically genetic in origin. Many arise from the simple biology of being alive....and interacting with an environment (whether animal or human). Experienced Cav breeders have already given you the state-of-the-art position on specifically genetically acquired health issues in that breed. Makes sense then, for you to track down registered breeders who are on top of their game. I did that for both my breeds of interest and have generally OK health-wise purebreds as pets. They're not kelpies BTW. Yeah, my original question could have been worded much better, but then, I'd had one too many ales at the time (hence the topsy-turvy-title and the lack of tact).

Thank-you, Jed. That was very informative. I hope you're still breeding when my mother decides to get a dog. :)

I think I'll take you up on your last suggestion when the time comes. :) So many Cavs all in one place would surely leave the rest of the planet barren of love. :D

I think you may have missed a number of posts in this thread. Somewhere in this thread (the authors may find them themselves and quote) are posts which state that: - It would be irresponsible of any breeder to claim there are no genetic problems in their lines, and if they did so, they either have their head in the sand or have no idea (paraphrasing) - (I'll add that breeders which make that claim are lying) - Sure, breeders become defensive in the face of negative publicity, including forums such as this when someone comes online making all sorts of blanket claims about the breed they love, and to which they have devoted their lives - Over the years, I've seen a number of potential buyers, with the attitude of expecting the genetically perfect pup, end up with one from a puppy farmer who told them all the lies under the sun (see my second point above), only to spend a lot of money at the vet, and then badmouth the breed. Not the shonky breeder they bought from, but the breed. Not their poor choice and the fact that they couldn't accept that there is no such thing as a genetically perfect breed, but the breed. If you want a genetically perfect breed, K-Mart sells them for about $20. - I don't have any puppies, so healthy or not, there is nothing for you. Except at K-Mart. end sarcasm. - I didn't ask you to claim there would never be any genetic issues with future pups, but wanted to know if there had been any genetic issues with dogs you had bred so far. Some breeders do give guarantees that if anything genetic crops up they will replace the dog free of charge. That shows a level of certainty in their breeding. I don't think you can ever guarantee that there won't be some throw-back or anomaly. - Well, I'm not sure why that defensiveness is directed towards me considering I'm not sure I've made a single claim in the entire thread. - I'm not interested in lies, I'm looking for the truth. This isn't a personal attack. I'm not sure how I can get you to understand this. - I would prefer to buy from a breeder who could discuss my concerns and answer my questions without sarcasm. I think it also depends on what you call a "Genetic Issue". Many breeds of dogs are born with hernias, if you bought a pup that turned out to have a hernia would you want a refund? Or like most have it repaired when the pup is desexed? A once off simple procedure with no ongoing health issues. Especially since the dog is not being bred from. Well no, I'm not concerned with minor issues in a breed that has major issues. My Schipp had an numbilical hernia when I purchased her and I was fine with just getting that repaired.

Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh: The thread subject line would indeed look odd...and totally unrealistic... if it referred to humans. 'Where could you find a human without health issues?' One difference in the purebred dog breeding world, is the nature of the decision-making for breeding with certain dogs....and also the shorter life- spans for the results to play out in lifetimes. I have an article from The Australian in which a researcher into human health at a leading Australian University, praised the process of purebred dog breeding as providing useful material for the work of his research centre. Why? Because many health problems are common to both humans and dogs. For the researcher, the problems are easier to track across depth and breadth of pedigree in dogs.....and the shorter life spans allowed them to see any genetic influences at work in what is controlled breeding. Interesting book just published, Zoobiquity: What Animals Can Teach Us About Being Human picks up the point that there's much to be gained from making connections between animal and human medicine (written by a cardiologist, Barbara Natterson Horowitz)). Apparently there's a joke that a doctor is just a vet who can only treat one species. :) I don't think you have to look as far as another species when talking about what we should expect in terms of genetics. Take the humble Kelpie for example. The breed has very few inherited issues and of the ones they do have, incidences are rare. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm hoping for hope.

I think you may have missed a number of posts in this thread. Somewhere in this thread (the authors may find them themselves and quote) are posts which state that: - It would be irresponsible of any breeder to claim there are no genetic problems in their lines, and if they did so, they either have their head in the sand or have no idea (paraphrasing) - (I'll add that breeders which make that claim are lying) - Sure, breeders become defensive in the face of negative publicity, including forums such as this when someone comes online making all sorts of blanket claims about the breed they love, and to which they have devoted their lives - Over the years, I've seen a number of potential buyers, with the attitude of expecting the genetically perfect pup, end up with one from a puppy farmer who told them all the lies under the sun (see my second point above), only to spend a lot of money at the vet, and then badmouth the breed. Not the shonky breeder they bought from, but the breed. Not their poor choice and the fact that they couldn't accept that there is no such thing as a genetically perfect breed, but the breed. If you want a genetically perfect breed, K-Mart sells them for about $20. - I don't have any puppies, so healthy or not, there is nothing for you. Except at K-Mart. end sarcasm. - I didn't ask you to claim there would never be any genetic issues with future pups, but wanted to know if there had been any genetic issues with dogs you had bred so far. Some breeders do give guarantees that if anything genetic crops up they will replace the dog free of charge. That shows a level of certainty in their breeding. I don't think you can ever guarantee that there won't be some throw-back or anomaly. - Well, I'm not sure why that defensiveness is directed towards me considering I'm not sure I've made a single claim in the entire thread. - I'm not interested in lies, I'm looking for the truth. This isn't a personal attack. I'm not sure how I can get you to understand this. - I would prefer to buy from a breeder who could discuss my concerns and answer my questions without sarcasm.

I'm not really sure I want another breed for my mother. I think a Cav would suit her perfectly. I just really want to know what my chances are of obtaining a healthy one. Everyone here has conflicting opinions, which I kind of expected, but was more (perhaps naively) hoping to discover relatively disease free lines. Thanks for your well wishes. :)

Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh: That's a bit of a strange reply. Why would I or anyone be getting excited about information that appears to confirm gross genetic issues within a breed? Particularly a breed they were looking at purchasing? This isn't an 'us against them' situation. It's a discussion that no one needs to be upset about.

Who are you, and why would I do that? In fact, your question just doesn't seem to fit the original intent of your first post, so... Who are you? What is your intent with this thread? It becomes clearer with every post. In answer to your question: Not many. My vet often thinks I'm seeing the other vet in town. He comments on how "robust" my newborns are, then later the young pups, how "rock solid" their patellae are; he'll check this and that knowing there's no point because it's all okay. The hip scores will come back lower than breed average. Hearts are good into old age, when the dogs will die at about age 13 or 14. BTW, heart clear until 7 can be cause for celebration. If the murmur is detected at 7 years, the dog may have another 7 or 8 years left yet. It may not even die from the heart condition. Stop scaremongering. Your slip is showing. You're starting to sound a little paranoid. It was a genuine question which fits exactly with the intent of my original post; which was to find out whether it was possible to really safeguard against genetic disease when purchasing a Cav and to understand the extent to which genetic illness is present within the breed. The reason I asked you if you would disclose that information is because I'm genuinely curious as to what your intepretation of a healthy breed is. I also don't understand why you would find that question offensive. It's breeders not disclosing information about genetic issues they've had that leaves me resorting to a public forum to really understand the extent of the health problems within the breed. I don't think genetic issues are really going to be able to be remedied unless we become more transparent and conversant about them. Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope. I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here. I don't think a heart murmur at any age is a cause for celebration. Sure seven is better than three, but at any age it's not ideal.

Really good to hear from a breeder with a lot of breed experience. SM wasn't really my concern, since I know that there isn't the same proliferation of the disease in Australia as there is overseas. There is, however, a wealth of other genetic conditions from which the breed suffers. I spoke to a very proud Cavalier owner today who told me that his dog has ONLY JUST been diagnosed with a heart murmur at the age of seven; as if that was cause for celebration. He also said that both his dogs were very anxious, but that was just part of the breed. It's constant comments like this which raise doubts in my mind. I appreciate the breeders who pour their heart and soul into a breed to try to ensure their health and temperament. But 'trying' and 'succeeding' are two different things when you're the buyer. Would you tell people how many of the dogs you bred over the years had genetic conditions despite your conscientious dedication? I am glad to hear that you have met a great number of healthy Cavs and I hope that the breed continue to move in the right direction. I hope more than anything that it's not too late to largely eradicate genetic conditions from the breed. I am confused as to the conflicting views I've had between your experience and that of the disheartened breeders I've heard from here and in real life. There are a lot of breed enthusiasts here and I didn't intend to offend anyone, though I can see how my wording might have come across as a bit callous. If I didn't have an appreciation of the breed myself I probably wouldn't have started this thread. It's good to talk openly about issues in any breed.

This is what worries me. If I had some kind of guarrantee that I could get a dog without genetic issues I wouldn't hesitate, but what I've read and heard indicates otherwise. Eg, "Heart mitral valve disease (MVD) is the leading cause of death of cavalier King Charles spaniels throughout the world. MVD is a polygenetic disease which afflicts over half of all cavaliers by age 5 years and nearly all cavaliers by age 10 years, should they survive that long." http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mitral_valve_disease.htm If I could get one breeder to respond that none of the dogs they've ever bred have suffered from genetic health issues I would find that comforting.

That is very heartening, Timokym. I will defintely be going through very select and researched channels when the time comes.

And THERE lies the problem. People decide they want a Cavalier, but will not invest in the general cost of adopting a pedigree, well bred dog. Thus, they are bought cheaply from backyard breeders and pet shops where dogs where the dogs are bred and bred, regardless of the health issues. The new owners then decide they want to have 'just one litter', and the cycle of backyard breeders and poorly bred dogs with high health issues continues Honestly, it's about education. A repoutable breeder will charge anywhere from $600 - $1000 for a well bred, health tested dog. These costs purely reflect the money invested into breeding and health testing for strong, healthy lines..... I'll get off of my soapbox now! Can I ask your experience with the breed, Timokym?

There is nothing wrong with stating your findings if they are honest and accurate, Arcane. I have found similar things within the veterinary industry. It's entirely possible that there are just large numbers of less than reputable breeders out there. I would like to know that it is indeed possible to obtain a Cav with a guaranteed freedom of genetic health issues.

The reason I ask this question is out of sincerity, not some grudge I bear against the breed. I work closely with the veterinary industry and I've honestly barely met a Cavie over the age of five without some kind of health issue. I sincerely love the breed or I wouldn't have recommended it to my mother in the first place, but I am disheartened to see so many sick dogs in the breed. Obviously there are some people here who have experienced something different to what I have and this seems promising. I would like to hear from a Cav breeder who has been in the breed for a while and whose dogs and their offpring have never suffered a genetic health issue common to the breed.

That's ok, I'm equally tired, hence the creative re-ordering of the name in my post!

You seem to be confused. I have only made one post within this thread and that is the original post.

My mother would one day like a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, however, I have reservations about this due to the high propensity for health issues within the breed. Is it possible to find a breeder who breeds Cavaliers without health issues or is the breed just too far gone to even bother?