PetSitters

You could almost drive over and pick him up from Adelaide to Ballarat? By memory I think it cost us under $400 when my husband drove from Adelaide to Melbourne and picked our little one up including a motel stay overnight, food etc, just a thought? We had considered this, but the puppy won't be have full immunity from its six week vaccinations and i'm loathe to set it down on the ground enroute to do its business every hour or so. Am i being overly protective about vaccination immunity? As long as my husband is allowed by AAE to lodge the dog himself, him picking up the puppy while he's in Melbourne for work, will be the cheapest option. His work pay for his flights and we only pay for the dog and the hiring of a car to get to Ballarat We didn't put him on the ground outside on the trip, same reason with vaccinations, my husband let him out of the crate and had newspaper down in the back of the wagon

Another Nikon here, recently purchased a Nikon D7000 from a Canon 450D, still learning how to drive the Nikon

I am so sorry to hear such dreadful news, it's devistating and thinking of you

It's a good thing if the policy is policed and acted upon which is often the downfall of good intentions when there is little scrutiny of the adds unfortunately

You could almost drive over and pick him up from Adelaide to Ballarat? By memory I think it cost us under $400 when my husband drove from Adelaide to Melbourne and picked our little one up including a motel stay overnight, food etc, just a thought?

Yes, I have seen some Vonforell dogs in their pedigrees and thought perhaps some were English lines, quite a few prefixes in the Macklin lines I hadn't heard of before? There is a breeder in rural SA that also has some of the Macklin type lines and produces a lot of pure blacks. I don't know of their actual working ability but I have always heard that temperament stability in the these lines are exceptionally good

What a cute clip hey

Yes, in order to breed a GSD of correct temperament and structure and maintain the breed's integrity, the Germans have put a stringent testing process in place to ensure that non compliant dogs are not bred with faulty traits reproduced. The GSDCA here in Australia who are supposed to uphold the German testing process only complete a 3rd of the requirements of the German Breed Survey which allows faulty traits to slip through what effectively is a quality control net and be reproduced to the detriment of the breed. The German requirements isn't easy and takes a lot of work and/or money to train, prepare and pass such a survey which is probably too hard for the average GSD breeder to undertake so the GSDCA don't do it, hence easy for the breeders, but detrimental for the breed. Personally I would be surprised if the majority of highly rated Australian show dogs had the integrity to pass a German breed survey to be honest and would suspect a large number of our breeding stock put to the test would potentially fail? What's Don Burke got to do with dogs anyway, isn't he supposed to be a gardening expert thank you for explaining that. yes mr burke is an expert on everything haven't you heard?? I don't think it's in any way constructive to allow a gardener to comment publically on dogs and be taken seriously, perhaps if the subject is dog's lifting their legs on his flowers there may be a point to his discussion otherwise that would really be the extent of a gardener's dog knowledge IMHO

You have complete sympathy from me. This 'wild' fence-rushing is nerve-racking for people walking past with their own dogs on leads. There's always the chance that at least one dog, will make it over. Which happened to you. I cannot understand how someone could dismiss that behaviour as 'play'. One of my GSD's is DA and reactive and the amount of times when we were just starting to make some progress in his training, it only takes one rushing dog to put us back 10 paces and my dog starts arking up again Ok,his reactivity is my problem to sort out, but the annoying factor not only is it scary and ruins what was essentially a pleasant walk, the off leash rushing dog owners are breaking the laws anyway

Yes, in order to breed a GSD of correct temperament and structure and maintain the breed's integrity, the Germans have put a stringent testing process in place to ensure that non compliant dogs are not bred with faulty traits reproduced. The GSDCA here in Australia who are supposed to uphold the German testing process only complete a 3rd of the requirements of the German Breed Survey which allows faulty traits to slip through what effectively is a quality control net and be reproduced to the detriment of the breed. The German requirements isn't easy and takes a lot of work and/or money to train, prepare and pass such a survey which is probably too hard for the average GSD breeder to undertake so the GSDCA don't do it, hence easy for the breeders, but detrimental for the breed. Personally I would be surprised if the majority of highly rated Australian show dogs had the integrity to pass a German breed survey to be honest and would suspect a large number of our breeding stock put to the test would potentially fail? What's Don Burke got to do with dogs anyway, isn't he supposed to be a gardening expert

I don't think you can say much really, only offer advice if asked for. I ruffled the feathers of an aquaintance once when she was waffling on about her "pure bred" Groodle, those silly oodle names really annoy me made out to be something special, but having a say tends to cause friction and not worth the potential grief. Perhaps this Cocker X has a better home now which is a good thing

I too hate that situation which is not improving in the areas I work, in fact I think it's getting worse at times with off leash dogs rushing at people in a public place with owners who cannot control them. On the flip side the other day, I came across a guy with Border Collie off leash playing at a small park near a walk way and thought to myself "oh here we go, another off leash dog" The BC saw us and started to move towards us, the guy recalled, the BC did an about turn back to the owner's feet and dropped as we walked past. Wow, "how good was that" I thought, an off leash trained dog that behaved it's self with an owner who had their eye on the ball

My boy is a full working line dog of Vonforell/Yultzen lines, grandson and line bred on Fax vom Grenzganger. Fax was one of the highest rated sporting/working GSD's ever imported to Australia producing many excellent sporting and police/service dogs. Mine is very close to what the breed standards of a GSD determines and we are very happy with him to date. He's quite aloof, confident with good handler focus and easy to train in drive, but not the slightest bit reactive, no DA or HA whatsoever, calm in a passive environment and not fearful in strange surrounds. He's lively, rather dominant and wants to play "all day" if you are up for it, but is also a nice affectionate pet who can switch off and relax if need be. I don't think Maklin GSD's are renouned working lines, Beychief breed some full working lines and working/show mixes, Vonchienloup are generally working lines. Mindfreak Kennels who bred our boy, Vonforell, Voncheinloup, Yultzen, Vontama, Raennik are some of the kennels who concentrate on working drives and quite often produce all black dogs like ours.

Here is my working line dog, he has more the original looks

I am not a behaviourist and don't claim to be, plenty for me to learn in that area, but I have obedience trained and worked in animal care for 27 years and have 2 GSD's of my own, but some of the regimes I see prescribed for behavioural rehabilitation in certain dogs to me is off the planet for what is trying to be achieved and the reasoning behind the system prescribed after working with and assessing the dog myself is more left of centre IMHO

Aidan, what I have found over the years is that GSD's with behavioural issues have a high incidence of trainer swapping where the owners of these dogs have been to several trainers and behaviourists to sort particular problems which indicates to me that plenty in the field do not not understand the breed and traits particularly well at all?. I don't think for a second because someone is a vet behaviourist or involved in dog training that it automatically qualifies them with working dog experience or knowledge of the best approach to take with behavioral rehabilitation and depends on the person themselves IMHO. The OP for example said she wouldn't touch Mark Singer with a 10 foot pole or something to that effect, a guy who has worked and trained GSD's for 30+ years and favours a drug routine instead My feeling is that Mark Singer would run rings around a vet behaviourist with GSD behavioural issues to reach a desired goal and unless a trainer of Mark's calibre and breed knowledge recommended a vet behaviourist after assessing the dog, I personally wouldn't be confident that the vet behaviorist route is the right path to take. Just my opinion on the situation for what it's worth

I'm not saying that somnolence isn't a known side-effect of modern psychopharmacology, but the evidence does not support that notion that serious side-effects (those that outweigh the benefits of medication) are common. In one quite large double-blind study (Fluoxetine in humans) the placebo group discontinued use due to side-effects equally as much as the treatment group! This suggests the possibility that the drug itself was not responsible for the reported side-effects. PetSitters suggested "GSD's" (plural), but did not specify how many dogs, verify the actual effects, identify the medication prescribed or any other factors that might account for what she has implied. I'm not saying that she hasn't seen a dog or dogs who have suffered side effects from medication, but it's hard to accept such accounts over stringently collected and published data. To do so limits the valid and useful options available for treatment on the basis of what is probably a fallacy. Clomicalm is usually prescribed for very serious stereotypies, some anxiety disorders, and self-injurious behaviour. Not all of these cases require medication as we know, but for those that do, it is literally a life-saver. Aidan, I have seen many vet behaviorists prescribe drugs for reactive dogs over the years, a bit like GP's prescribing anitbiotics for everything in that vein which in the dog boiled down to a lack of adequate training. Rectivity can have the top knocked off it with drugs, that is true, but for me personally with the normal type of reactivity that is common in some GSD's which I amount to more a genetic drive imbalance in the dog, drug rehabilitation is not the path I would travel first and foremost to correct the behaviour over training unless there was a confirmed diagnosed medical condition requiring drug treatment regimes. GSD's are a working breed and sometimes kept as pets in some dogs, working drives are misunderstood and mismanaged creating poor behaviours which vet behaviourists having limited experience with working drives and common drive imbalances in the breed see a behaviour entirely different than an experienced K9 trainer who works and trains the breed knowing the traits inside and out is what I am saying. My first port of call with behavioural and reactivity issues with a GSD is a good K9 trainer who understands them thoroughly who is best IMHO to determine if there is something unusual with the dog to require the assistance of vet behaviourist.

That is the same experience I have seen Aidan along with bloodshot eyes and droopy eyelids, I am sorry, I can't recall the name of the drug though although explained as anti anxiety medication?

Personally, I think the dog is in the wrong hands for successful rehabilitation and would be better off under Mark Singer who specialises in GSD behaviour with 30+ years experience. Other's I would recommend speaking with before heading down the drug and head collar path is Steve Courtney (K9Pro)and Julie Kopunovich (InlineK9). In my job for what it's worth, I have a lot of GSD customers who's dogs I care for, some under rehabilitation routines for reactivity and the difference between the dog's under Mark, Steve and Julie's regimes compared with the drug and head collar regimes in my experience are the difference between chalk and cheese with the behavioral outcome achieved. I have seen GSD's zonked on drugs from vet behaviorists which wasn't a pretty sight and have also seen GSD's referred to Mark Singer from vets who strugggled to make head way in the rehabilitation process from misunderstanding the working drives the breed can exhibit. "Never" from my experiences in the breed would I recommend vet behaviourist routines before seeking the opinions of the above mentioned and the like addressing any form of reactivity or aggression based behaviours from the results I have seen from both avenues of rehabilitation and the best results I have seen in the breed haven't been achieved with drugs and head collar regimes.

So the dog's now drugged contemplating a head collar to satisfy your liking of reward based training, is that correct?

Lets say hypothetically speaking that model is universally agreed upon by various organisations and it becomes compulsory (never mind how this is supposed to be enforced): Does that apply to: Dogs who are going to be used for breeding? Dogs of a specific breed? Dogs who are being considered for importation? Dogs who are in rescue and being considered for euthanasia or rehoming? Dogs who have a DD declaration and it is being contested? Dogs who have been abused and assessed for rehab-or if they fail the test once, euthanasia automatically applies? (Dogs who have a known history of abuse by a specific gender/type, same gender/type does test for instance?) A proposal that all dogs council or kennel registered now have to be assessed ? Who does the test: authorised, qualified (and what qualifications, authorisations are recognised and by what authorities/organisations?) and fees involved? Does the same sort model apply for dogs facing a DD order due to DA or Animal Aggression? Does a small fluffy dog or cat does a walk by(or a more realistic test would be to expose said dog to a jumpy bouncy, quick moving animal as so frequently happens in real life) by a dog and if they do any of the above they then are considered to have potential for a dangerous dog order therefore not suitable for rehoming and automatically euthanised? (and that is regardless of breed, so if you have a sighthound or working dog for example, there are no consdieratons made for what that dog was historically bred for? (Actually, this happened to people I know who wanted to adopt the unwanted next door neighbours dog. Friend went to RSPCA to adopt, dog apparently failed cat test because in ran at (lunged) at a cat through the fence even though it is highly likely it was first time he saw a cat, but was considered unsuitable for rehoming and was euthanised). How stringent does the proposed model be, do dogs have to pass a cat, poultry, dog, guinea pig test? After all, if a dog attacks/maims/kills any of those as there has been instances where this has appeared enough to have a Dangerous Dog declared. Even now the problem not so much lies with regulations/rules, but interpretation of those already in place; subjective nature of those rules and those who are apparently qualifed enough to be the chosen ones who apply those regulations/rules. Anway, I guess I've once again strayed off topic because the poll is: AnywayIf the breed standard for some breed calls for HA or DA temperament, what should be done? Ban importation of the breed Require special licensing for owners of the breed Nothing. Other (please clarify) and again my answer is it is so simple to merely alter the wording of the standard and this becomes null and void. Hmm, you have gone a bit off-topic. (Although your questions are other good topics too)For the purposes of this thread, I am just trying to define "human aggression" in dogs. Let's imagine that there was a strong genetic trait caused by a certain combination of genes that led to the dogs that possessed that combination being very likely to fail that "human aggression" test. I didn't list them, but there is a much larger list of other behaviours a dog could show as an alternative to the ones that would fail the test. Question for discussion - Is that level and type of aggression acceptable in dogs being produced in this country? Should the production and sale of those dogs be unlimited? The Fila is banned, but are there other breeds in this country where that level of aggression is seen as desirable? Greytmate, the "human aggression" test that you put forward, a good attack trained dog would pass, a good police dog etc, the only desire in traits that would fail the test I can see is a junk yard guard dog that would do a job without training, otherwise the traits IMHO have no place in the community and to own a dog possessing traits to fail the test are a liability which takes extreme levels of training, management and supervision to maintain safety.

I don't think there are any breed standards that call for this temperament in breeds that are not restricted already, more to the point I think this topic has credibility directed towards breeders selecting aggressive temperaments in breeds that are supposed to be stable and calm in a passive environment is the greater problem we face that needs to be addressed?. It's like the GSD, because a good example of the breed can be "trained" to attack and protect on command or guard particluar surroundings, a GSD that displays this behaviour without training is too often mistakenly accredited as a good example of the breed which IMHO creates the reasoning for breeding unstable dogs, and this mentality with the GSD is a downward slope to ruining the breed. I have the fortune of owning two GSD's, one DA & HA unstable dog who will attack and bite strangers and go after strange dogs given the opportunity with the training of this dog centred around not reacting in a passive environment, but the problem is, my dog "will" attack and protect against intruders etc without training and is easily misconstrude as having the ideal "protective" instinct which for a GSD he hasn't and is essentially a fear biter. My other GSD, a working line dog from a long history of police dog and high level sporting dog ancestory is cool and confident, not the slightest bit reactive in a passive environment and is neither DA or HA, but in bitework training for sport, he has serious aggression under pressure, fight the dog and the aggression surfaces and escalates which is how a good temperament working GSD should be. Unless a GSD is "trained" in suspicion and fight, they should be calm and stable unprovoked and sadly with the GSD as I see things, too many are bred with aggressive tendencies as a short cut to protection training or bred by people who don't understand the correct traits. I hate with a passion, people excusing fearful and unstable behaviour in the GSD breed as protection quality or claiming such a temperament makes an ideal police dog, DA, HA, fearful, unstable and reactive GSD's IMHO should be desexed and removed from the gene pools. After owning and training an unstable and a stable GSD the two temperaments are worlds apart and no comparison between the two?

Might be an idea if you checked your facts first before making this Ignorant statement. Whats so ignorant about bringing to peoples attention the futile banning of the importation of the GSD based on incorrect fear based assumptions? Ok so the ban actually ENDED in the 70's. And the main fear was that crossed with a Dingo it would create a sheep killing super dog. But it still stands as an example of something I would not like to see in this country again when it comes to jumping to conclusions about dog breeds and agression. Might be an idea if you read the thread again..... You did say because it was considered an 'aggressive breed' didn't you? In 1929 an unjust import ban was placed of this wonderful breed because some moron farmers had this crazy idea that GSD's would breed with dingos and produce a super sheep killer. What these morons didn't know was the GSD was a sheep herding breed. Under this ban came victimization as they were considered vermin and in some states could be shot on sight. GSD owners needed a permit to travel from one town to another, rego was much more and of cause the fear associated with Ignorance which is still alive today. Bloodlines also suffered and finely in 1972 this ban was lifted I didn't vote as I don't see the purpose of this thread at all. Yes, that is correct how the GSD was banned in 1929 and lifted in 1972 by cleaver promotion of the breed's integrity, giving fine examples of the breed to politicians as pets was one method of promotion appartantly?.

Yes I have Tarope, it's a joke along with the reasoning for unwarranted reactivity, learned that Schutzhund training. Your DA Shepherd's wouldn't make it onto a Schutzhund field and would be disqualfied at the gate as my reactive dog was, so given Schutzhund is the global breed suitability test, how does being DA or HA make up the correct or desired trait in that case? I already have the answer, buy a GSD from a breeder who uses the traits for the work they were intended to do and understands what traits make up a correct example of the breed. Reactive dogs are protecting themselves with fear aggression and weak nerves, they are not protecting you Tarope ;) Let me understand this, your bashing the GSD club of SA so it's a fair bet you didn't buy you GSD's from that club then why are you here on DOL as DOL is about promoting not bashing pure breed clubs. I have two GSD's Tarope, one from the GSD Club that is DA & HA and one that isn't. The GSD club say's the temperament is correct and up to me to manage the dog effectively, but the breed standard says the tempermament is faulty? I have a GSD who's temperament is "exactly" as the breed standard describes and prefer the correct version thanks :D

Yes I have Tarope, it's a joke along with the reasoning for unwarranted reactivity, learned that Schutzhund training. Your DA Shepherd's wouldn't make it onto a Schutzhund field and would be disqualfied at the gate as my reactive dog was, so given Schutzhund is the global breed suitability test, how does being DA or HA make up the correct or desired trait in that case? I already have the answer, buy a GSD from a breeder who uses the traits for the work they were intended to do and understands what traits make up a correct example of the breed. Reactive dogs are protecting themselves with fear aggression and weak nerves, they are not protecting you Tarope ;)