Tralee

Well I reiterate: Certainly, if I had gone to collect a child and the dog went on such a rampage, I would be meeting my obligation for Social Justice to the full extent. It was and is totally unacceptable. Also, if you want to be friends with the owner of the dog, then it is your duty to intervene. It is the moral and ethical thing to do I don't know what your defintion of 'friend' is or what your value system is either but I suspect it may be different to mine. My friends simply do not do things that they shouldn't. Therefore, if I am to be friends with the dysfunctional family, and as Catholic I am obligated to it, then I am duty bound to offer and provide assistance to the owner of the dog. Now this situation is extreme and totally unacceptable. It calls for an extraordinary response. It will take a superhuman effort to get the right result. Regards

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations. Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals) That's interesting espinay2. That means their trespass laws would be impacting on Maremmas as well. I have already stated that the Maremma in the UK has been developing a more docile temperament, and was challenged to provide evidence. So thanks for that, it is duly noted.

I'm not sure dog was intent on doing serious damage - given no blood. But that doesn't matter, if the dog put its mouth on Alyosha's person - council do take that seriously. At least my council did when similar happened to me. Also, if you want to be friends with the owner of the dog, then it is your duty to intervene. Regards I don't understand that part ? They are not friends anyway so its irrelevant but reporting it will hardly make them friends. It would make friends fall our surely ? So what are you saying? Friends and neighbours are expendable. I don't understand that part.

I'm not sure dog was intent on doing serious damage - given no blood. But that doesn't matter, if the dog put its mouth on Alyosha's person - council do take that seriously. At least my council did when similar happened to me. Well yes, the dog can be declared dangerous without having bitten someone and the Council then has the power to intervene. In NSW, it is not necessary for a dog to attack, whereas clearly this dog did "strike out with force" but the dog only needs to, Quote: "display unreasonable aggression towardsa person or animal (other than vermin)" end quote My puppy boy will stamp, and have a tanty, he might even muzzle punch, but he expects attention or a treat. He certainly demands respect but bitting is not in his history. The Ranger calls this aggression, but he's an idiot and does not work here anymore, anyway. Further, the offending dog is in ACT and they would have a different Act. Certainly, if I had gone to collect a child and the dog went on such a rampage, I would be meeting my obligation for Social Justice to the full extent. It was and is totally unacceptable. Also, if you want to be friends with the owner of the dog, then it is your duty to intervene. It is the moral and ethical thing to do Regards

I've only had Maremmas for 8 and a bit years, but my dogs, two of which are Titled Champions and another an upcoming Champion, have lost none of their inherent 'drive' to protect and guard. Our puppies, who we have homed and follow devotedly, are working successfully. In my experience, they pop out with an innate ability to guard and they will develop in the direction in which a person sets out to rear them. The accepted advice to new puppy owners being: "You need to start out in the manner in which you want to take the dog." I am very happy with my dogs, they don't do innane, endless, circus tricks but I insist that they have good 'doggy' manners especially when around other dogs and other people. However, on property, it is a different manner, they are allowed and encouraged to take charge of their yards. I have respected their temperaments: Alert but not Aggressive. My preference is for dogs that remain 'wary of strangers' and are able to display and demonstrate that temperament. Regards

A very sad and extremely disturbing situation. You have a moral obligation and a social responsibility to report it, there are no two ways about it. The dog, obviously, is not being managed properly and the likelihood of its behaviour being curtailed is too remote. The fact that the dog is allowed to take food from a disabled child is totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, once again, the dog suffers collateral damage from a dysfunctional family. The Council and the Rangers must make an intervention. Personally, I feel that the dog needs to be removed. Regretably, because you have not been bitten, the Rangers are virtually powerless. They can issue a warning, but it is very hard to prove an alleged attack with out demonstrating some injury. In future, maybe your son's gf could go over to yours instead of the current arrangements. Cheers

Well finally. It only took 23 pages to get some variety of comment. I am glad to see some support and suggestions for the furthering development of this astounding dog. It is also encouraging to see some commonality of thought among Maremma Breeders. Today, Luca Luciani has taken his dogs to another International (EXPO INTERNAZIONALE DI MONTICHIARI). Lets hope he gets one of them on the podium.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country? In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds. I made this point earlier. We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs. But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals. The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises. Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today. Then it seems to me Tralee that if you want Maremmas to be as successful in the show ring here as they are overseas, you need to do what every other importer/exhibitor/promoter of a less popular breed does to get them considered for the top awards: Import the best winning show dogs you can find/afford from the best lines - a dog and a bitch would be a good idea. Promote them in all the show magazines Put them on the end of a lead of a cracking handler and take them wherever international judges familiar with the breed are. Royal shows are a must. Follow up with imported semen and potentially a few more top quality dogs that can form the basis of a good breeding program Place pups in experienced (both with LSG and showing) homes and get the line out there. Share your dream and your line with others of the same view. I can name several now highly competitive and internationally recognized breeds here that owe their current recognition to the hard work, and financial commitment of one or a few people. You might want to think that you could buy a locally bred pup and crack it at Ag show after Ag show building a ground swell of recognition but frankly I doubt it will happen. Well yeah, ya think. Of course, our dogs have the genes in them to produce dogs of equal standing. Some do argue that the breed should be developed from the existing lines here in Australia. Personally, I would currently source dogs from about two, possibly three breeders at the most, here in Australia. But, this is my point, and I know you get it. I saw a Merle Australian Shepherd at a show in Queensland being exercised before exhibit. It was a stunning dog and I had the view it would win, uncontested. Fact is, it did. That's the kind of Maremma I would like to see here. I don't really care who owns it. But if a rarer breed like the Russian Black Terrier can go Multi BIS Aust Supreme Champion then it seems to me the Maremma, in Australia, has gone begging for recognition.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country? In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds. I made this point earlier. We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs. But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals. The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises. Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today. Well if their dogs have to be tested for temperament because so many are lacking and that test has zippo nothing to do with how it could work Im not that convinced the Italians are doing all you seem to think they are doing. What's more those "entrepreneurs' built a gene pool which was extremely viable and had no known genetic issues. Ive got dogs here that have every single dog in their pedigree for 4 generations which are champions so suggesting to me that people were breeding anything to anything and that they still are? Rubbish. C'mon Steve. The temperament testing some Italians have undertaken is for good canine citizenship, it is neither universal or over-prescribed. I could have had a $125 Maremma advertised in a Queensland newspaper, at the time I got my first dog. There must be hundreds of dogs that have been bred on farm without due care to the standard or pedigree. We have Maremma being bred here that are indisciminately joined and not pedigreed. Rescues have dogs that obviously display careless breeding. Why you think every dog is a cousin to those you have, is beyond me. So, not rubbish at all

Gee it was JUST a queston. Your a bit touchy about it tho so maybe you have no permissions? Granted. Permission is not required, by the time photos get to me thay have gone through a chain of postings. This is different to Copyright material which pertains to intellectual and economic property. We can't be sued for 'photo junkets' Regards

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country? In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds. I made this point earlier. We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs. But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals. The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises. Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

If you put a photo in a public forum then it becomes public, it is no longer private. Its a different matter to take a photo or an image of someone which technically belongs to them and post it on the internet without their permission. The internet is a public place it is not private at all. I sit through this discussion with the school police liasion officer and our year 9/10 children every year. You need to ascertain the facts before you make insinuations.

What do you mean by that? It could be misconstrued and seen as offensive to a lot of maremma owners and breeders. Why do you need to be selective in your interpretation and choose to take offense when clearly no offense is intended. The frame is balanced showing a Maremma in its traditional environment performing its traditional function and the current ultimate show dogs. It is obvious it is not my picture or my comment but indeed shows the common dialogue between us and the Italians. The comment belongs to Pasquale Luciani who was responding to - Pastore Abruzzese, detto anche Cane da pecore dell'Abruzzo. I included the photos of Anna Albrigo's dogs as a counter point to Pasquale's claim. But there is no totally oppositional polemic between traditionalists and show breeders. It is a false dichotomy. And I doubt any breeds have been developed exclusively for the show ring. My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas. On their day they are the best dogs in the World. I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds. But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas? Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

Il vero pastore abruzzese,tutto il resto è noia.......... The true shepherd abruzzo, all the rest is nothing ....

Looks like a lovely dog but the angle is off. ETA. What, 12 months! Very nice size. Indubitably, they work flawlessly but they can also be big clowns.

When I moved to Lismore from Broken Hill to work at Nimbin Cemtral School I had to take my two dogs to school with me and put them in the Ag. plot because I had not found a house and they could not be left alone in crates in the Caravan Park during the day while I was away. On the first day, the Ag. assistant rang up to the school that Winja had killed the rooster. No blame was placed on the dog because the Ag Assistant had not corralled the aggressive rooster. The rooster had caused numerable injuries to students and they were glad to be rid of it. I can only imagine the rooster having a go at the dog. On the second day, when I went to collect the dogs my big girl was missing. Of course I thought the worst and scoured the perimeter for a carcass left from snake bit. No carcass. I then thought one of the kids had taken her because she would go with anybody. Just as I was leaving I looked over to the chook pen and Sooki was sitting under a tree. Because of the previous days events, I frantically looked for dead chickens. None could be found. Sooki had camped under the tree in the chool pen. She was doing what she only knew innately because at three years of age she had never been with a chicken. Not only that, she was determined not to come home with me, she had a responsibility and was committed to it. My dog numbers increased from one to four progessively, Each new dog competed with the previous dog/s to protect them. On property they protected the pack, and their vigilance increased when there were litters on the ground. Dogs are livestock too, and the Maremma is a livestock guardian. It is an astounding thing to observe how they have a division of labour when threats arise. One dog takes the fence, another stays close to me and I get pushed back away from the danger, inbetween the dogs are ready to reinforce their defence or increase the security around me as the case may be. I have homed several dogs and there are testimonials to their suitability and success on my dog's website. But that does not mean just anybody would be advised by me to get a Maremma or that I would home a puppy with just anybody. My summation is: you need brains if you are going to keep a dog and good brains if you have a Maremma. Regards

Great attitude and committment. Well done!

Well, the questions centred around their suitability as regular dometic pets. I have not seen your dogs with your visitors, but my dogs will not let anybody approach me whether it is inside the house or outside. I have to strategically place myself in a position so that any movement by others will be away from me. A few years back I was walking the dogs and a neighbour started to become aggressive and raised his voice. Winja was up on his back legs staring him in the eyes and barking at him. The dogs are protective instinctively, they know their business and they do it flawlessly. But I would not expect them to be listed as your everyday take home dog to be left with young children who naturally have friends that come and go. In my experience that would not just be irresponsible but criminal. They are a special purpose dog, and if you do not have a special purpose, then another dog should be considered. Regards

Exactly, and this is the great thing about dialogue. You come at the situation from your perspective, dare I say it, as a mother and a grandmother, business woman and farmer. My situation is as a single person, who flits between farm and town, and who takes his dogs off property regularly. I have to advise potential puppy owners, with due care and diligence, to the long term welfare of the pup and the family they may be about to join. So far so good, but when I look back at some of the places a pup may have gone, I am not ashamed to say, I have been very lucky. Several homes have been exceptionally good, but I can count them all and name them without looking them up.

Well I am lucky to have two visitors a year. And that is only Santa and the Easter bunny. Even the meter readers won't visit. :D

Sure, but I am not going to labour on about how they treat visitors just so others can say: "There I told you so, Maremma have poor temperament" There are others too keen to berate one breeders dogs against anothers, and I experienced it firsthand before I had bred any dogs of my own. The same breeder advised the owner of a potential sire not to allow her dog over one of my bitches because "their temperaments were off" I mean, I don't spit judgement over any body's dogs, I am too busy sourcing dogs that meet my own progressive criteria. Regards

Well I doubt that steve or I would use the term companion animal when applied to Maremmas in the sense that it is understood in the pet market. The Maremma is an associative dog, if you have had one or more you would know that. The sense in which companion is used as it relates to Maremmas is as a companion and guard dog This is the value of the dogs steve mentions she has homed with autistic and elderly. My point about the habits of the sheperdesses should not obfuscated unnecessarily. Sheep are coralled, not dogs and humans, so the dogs were coralled at night with the sheep and their humans. Maremmas are companion dogs but not a universally companionable dog. To claim other wise would simply be irresponsible

Yes, most certainly, some dogs make excellent 'pets' but the Maremma is not a pet it is a 'working dog.' Sooki was in every sense of the word a thoroughly dependable domestic pet but her temperament was on the far end of the bell curve. She was therapy dog standard and was invited to primary schools and nursing homes. But I am not going to generalise the temperament of one dog to every other Maremma bred. That would just be foolhardy. Sooki's breeder had two domestic pet Maremmas and when I visited her, her big dog was very house bound. But there was no way in the world I was going to be allowed to get up off the couch and approach her sitting across from me in an arm chair. The other dog (a bitch) attacked her new young breeding bitch so viciously it was lucky not to have been put down. Her daughter was astute enough not to get involved but many other households are not so Maremma savvy. When I visited Winja's breeders who had a larger number of dogs I was not allowed to go anywhere unaccompanied. Now these examples show that the Maremma is not a house pet animal. I've raised my dogs to be well mannered and cooperative but they still make their own decisions and determinations as far as threats go. We've been in town and on property about 50-50 of the time over the last 8-9 years in which I have kept Maremma. From this experience, my analysis of the breed can only result in the conclusion that the Maremma character is challenging, unique and deserves respect. In the majority of cases, the Maremma is a working dog and should not be considered as a suitable pet for a child, dog novice, or your common everyday 'egit'. Responsible dog ownership and ethical breeding requires no less. Underplaying the potential of the dog to inflict injury in order to promote the dogs as affable and gregarious is simply irresponsible. Also, dvocacy and promotion of the Maremma is one thing, but breeding the dogs off their temperament is something else all together. Now I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here. I'm simply participating in a dialogue which will further our understanding.

In the 'Maremma goes feral' situation the dogs are left for six months at a time. Your friends obviously have a working relationship with their dogs and I would expect that to be the minimum criteria for keeping Maremmas. I know a tea tree farmer who started with alpaccas to protect his weed eaters (sheep) but when the wild dogs came down they wouldn't move from the opposite end of the paddocks. They only reacted if approached directly. Absolutely useless. Interesting point about the other dogs. The Italians have used the Maremma for guarding together with another breed for herding.