Tralee

I make observations. What is there, is there for all to see. I don't over extrapolate to create issues that don't exist. Much is conjecture and wishful projection, based on correlation that remains unproven. All the data is not in and may not be in for some time. It is simple folly to make judgements, rulings and condemnations when no evidential case can be made.

Working temperament, not an issue! Just sayin'

Pink nose, "out of" Rampone and Orsa. Not a show dog and working! Just one example of many. Just sayin'

Translation: "The result of many years of passion and love for a splendid, old Italian breed. Homogeneity, Character and Type. Thankyou, particulalry those persons over the years who have contributed to the realisation of my dream, those who helped me reach this result." end translation. There you have it, none of us are going to get there alone. It can only be done, together.

You know, Steve I am getting this great sense of Déjà vu. We have been over this ground together many times. My new premise is that we have not kept pace with the Italians and, their dogs are currently, far and beyond, superior. It is no good being parochial, we may have produced an Australian Maremma, but the conformation of Australian Show dogs should compliment the working trait and vice-versa. Titled dogs should, and could, be a good barometer for breeding. On the other hand, I see no reason why a similar protocol to that used with Kelpies could not be applied to other working breeds, particularly Maremmas. Neither should we overlook the fact that the Italians also have another category for their breeding bitches of Reproductive Champion.

*cough Translated from Italiana to English I can't believe I got the spelling right, well, yes I can.

Pigment is only ONE thing to be thought of. I actaully START with hips elbows, eye's and thyriod.. This assumes that I like the pup enough to want to concider him/her in the first place. Breeding and showing/working is not for the faint of heart and I do it as it's a hobby. Next the Italian festival.................. Say ciao for me at the Festival. I would still like to see the undulating lip removed from our dogs

I am VERY VERY sorry that you have lost Chalice. Loosing a young heathy dog to outside interference is never easy. RIP Chalice. Thanks, it was very sad, tragic actually. I was very fond of Chalice and she was very fond of me, more so than the other dogs. I won't be doing that again.

OK Now you have seen one working, its no biggy. He is not breeding, he is not suffering but he has not been dumped in the middle of some paddock with minimal shade 24/7. Your conclusion about predicting which dogs have the fault is too simple. Agreed it should not be over represented within the breed but the dogs will have the last say. I am not interested in being an advocate for some breeders. My advocacy is for the dogs, all of them. You are not listening - you dont know what comes next and its not about shade and only skin cancer and being more attractive to biting insects. You assume that this lack of pigment will only affect those parts of its skin which are exposed but if it is caused even in part by a tyrosinase issue - snow nose has been - as the dog ages there is an increased risk of loads of things. The dog I met on Monday has lived a life of luxury in a family and had lush green shade all of its life. How are you going to stop it being over represented in a breed when many that are being bred either have it or carry it now and there are only about 140 a year throughout the entire country being bred and out of them only about 10 % go into the registered gene pool? If your passion is truly for the health, future and welfare of the breed how can you not see what potential impact there is a on a breed when breeders are prepared to compromise to get a look which they like to stand on a podium. You may be able to control where your puppies go and what type of environment they live in if the environment has any impact on this anyway but you cant control what comes next for the breed if it leaks in and breeders dont take action to stop it. We should not tie ouselves up in knots, I know your argument and I am following closely the findings you uncover. But I am not going to close the books, I am a trained scientist, I believe I have a modicum of intelligence. To that end, I have a different perspective. Basically, your retorts about Show breeding is alarming. If the dogs do not approach the Standard then there will be no registered Maremmas at all.

YES !!!!!! You can if you want, but dictating to Mother Nature is never wise. If I produce 40 puppies and one has a pink nose, does that mean the other 39 are not viable. If so, then what about the little puppy bitch born with full and complete pigment, all her skin and every toe nail solid black? Could you get her out of two other dogs? Good point isn't it. The colour is genetic but not only that it is polygenetic and involves many genes. You're implying it is a simple dominant/recessive mechanism. Nothing, could be further from the truth. You do get touchy :) but I am saying YES !!! to the suggestion that we should all aviod breeding with any dog that is depigmented. Strong complete black pigment is very important. Steve has given me some handy new lines of inquirey as well. But as a good start the advice would be, use the best dogs with the strongest pigment. I am not even implying that I actually understand the mode of inheritance actually. But so far I have only produced one that is some what depigmented and I am CERTIAN she will make no contrubition to the gene puddle. Concentrating on the minor fault of pigmentation to the exclusion of other minor faults is just plain and simple bias. For example, the lip of the dog should be straight not undulating. Got any dogs in mind that do not have an undulating lip? Following the argument about pigmentation, dogs with undulating lip should not be used for breeding programs. Good point isn't it. I think we may be at an impasse, shouldn't you concede?

Your boy has LOVELY EYE's !!! I would test him for a thyriod imballance personally as it is more common than some would like to believe. At some point tralee mentioned that he has a bitch with no pigment and he wants to breed her. To my mind that is a bad idea. The gene sequance inheritance is complicated and not well understood. BUT the fact remains that it is not at all desirable and the first way to stop seeing this is to not breed with affected dogs........... He does have lovely eyes but they are not the solid black or 'castagna' eyes that are so highly prized. Chalice was PTS, as it turns out due to the meddling and interference of an incompetent Ranger and inept Council. Arawn Bladewyn Chalice (jelly chali; jelly bean) 19:07:2008 - 25:08:2012. RIP It needs to be pointed out that the Italians do not share the view that is being foisted about here of exclusive breeding. The gene pool is sacred.

OK Now you have seen one working, its no biggy. He is not breeding, he is not suffering but he has not been dumped in the middle of some paddock with minimal shade 24/7. Your conclusion about predicting which dogs have the fault is too simple. Agreed it should not be over represented within the breed but the dogs will have the last say. I am not interested in being an advocate for some breeders. My advocacy is for the dogs, all of them.

You would be very unlucky. More chance of him having hypothyroidism, which is not limited to dogs. Ay Steve.

YES !!!!!! You can if you want, but dictating to Mother Nature is never wise. If I produce 40 puppies and one has a pink nose, does that mean the other 39 are not viable. If so, then what about the little puppy bitch born with full and complete pigment, all her skin and every toe nail solid black? Could you get her out of two other dogs? Good point isn't it. The colour is genetic but not only that it is polygenetic and involves many genes. You're implying it is a simple dominant/recessive mechanism. Nothing, could be further from the truth.

The standard is an ideal, which will never be fully populated. In fact, small numbers of dogs have high scores on the standard. That's why those few dogs are BIS internationally.

Those people posting one line quips, and not contributing to our discussion about the responsibility of breeding for the betterment of the breed, could you kindly go and try to annoy someone else. Unless of course, you have something positive to contribute.

Not at all. The Maremma is not a Pointer This response makes no sense? No pure bred Maremma should ever have a liver nose as liver is a recessive colour. Even a first generation mixed breed Maremma should not be able to be liver as two copies of the colour gene are needed. There are Lemon Pointers. I believe they have both. It is beyond me how my two dogs with full pigment could produce Chalice with a pink nose because your Genetics forbids it. Seriously, are your serious?

Pink skin is not rare, I get to see many photos and a lot are lacking pigment. Sub-types It may sound shocking and something to cause alarm but it simply is not a biggy. Just because Steve says it detracts from their suitablity for working, and that then means they are not bomb proof, does not make it gospel or override the efforts of the Italian Fathers of the Breed to conserve the gene pool. And, Australia has the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world as a direct result of the Hole in the Ozone Layer.

Not at all. The Maremma is not a Pointer

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too. I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe. And then how many are desexed. Hence the reason for this thread. The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern. I recently asked someone who own farmbred maremmas why they don't buy from a reg breeder and they are under the impression that show maremmas are not as tough as the farmbred ones and also people who are reg breeders of maremmas are few and far between and picky about who they sell to, so they may need 3 or 4 good maremmas yet be denied any. So there's a few reasons. Well I have not grounded a large number of litters but I do believe that I got the practice of homing puppies correct, right from the get go. Firstly, I always have more homes than puppies. My dogs have gone to working homes mostly but some went to show homes. One dog went to a family that has had a Maremma before. I vet puppy enquiries in great depth, but usually I decide on homes where the people are telling me what the dog will do and can do. lol.

Pigment is taken VERY seriously in Pyreneans. We don't have any disqualifying faults in the Standard here in Aust (as the current one is the UK one despite us trying to change it to country of origin), but it is pretty much beaten into us from the beginning how important pigment is, so breeders are all pretty wary of it and it is usually emphasised in judges training. This below is included the standard for the Maremma, so I would think it is a matter of ensuring judges and breeders take heed of the standard? Who does the judges training for the breed?: There is a difference between depigmented and liver. The Italians call liver, 'pele rosa' or pink skin. While dogs that are shown in Italy characteristically have good pigment, it is not an issue in the working dog. Maremma work in the snow and so you would expect they are a high risk group for skin cancer, however, the hole in the Ozone Layer does not extend into Italy. Skin cancer is a problem peculiar to Australia.

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too. I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe. And then how many are desexed. Hence the reason for this thread. The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern.

It's not my job to teach people how to read. The comment was made in context, and within the dialogue between the OP and myself.

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations. Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals) That's interesting espinay2. That means their trespass laws would be impacting on Maremmas as well. I have already stated that the Maremma in the UK has been developing a more docile temperament, and was challenged to provide evidence. So thanks for that, it is duly noted. That isn't evidence of change. As noted, all the working Maremma here in Australia are descended from UK dogs who have lived under those rules since their introduction to that country. If it were a problem too, anyone such as yourself who did not live on a working property would have the same issue by virtue that your dogs do not work. A breed does not magically lose the ability unless effort is made to breed away from it over many generations. Being able to 'test' working ability is good, but there are many many breeders who do not have stock that recognize and work hard to maintain those traits in their dogs. I would even hazard a guess that not all of the top Italian breeders have farms that their dogs work on? So again, what hard evidence is there that showing is killing the instinct of the maremma? Just briefly, I doubt showing per se is impacting on an eradication of working temperament. Showing and temperament is a poor correlation. But you are right, there is a division in Italy between the working dog lines/breeders and the Show/breeders. I know a particular breeder who specifically breeds and provides dogs to other breeders. He is the show breeders breeder if you like. I am also aware that other breeders favour a working dog. But there are many other arguments centering around the conformation and temperament of the Maremma in Italy. One, for example, is the genuine or authentic shape of their head, should they be lupoid or mastoid. But, personally, I am not in fear of the Maremma losing its working temperament. We can always return to the ultimate source and extract dogs, in situ, from their country of origin. A country, by the way, that holds the breed in high esteem and with great regard. P

Astounding. There are simply no words for what you have done.