Tralee

errhh! Thanks I think. Hell no, I'm not offended. Dialogue is not only necessary it is absolutely paramount. I am not afraid of being wrong, and people should not use that admission disproportionately because I also love being right. For crissakes I got a MA out of it so its served me well. But the jury is out, so call me a fence sitter if you want but I have not done anything other than defend a pup against culling. You would not get out of here alive if you had ever attempted to take Chalice from me and did not retreat, and I suspect the owners of Lumen feel very much the same. The two dogs, both from separate litters have not shown any health issues, to date. I homed both of them to homes that were above and beyond far superior to any other home my pigment dogs have gone to. So when I do something worth crucifying me for, then come and call. Oh wait, maybe I should have phrased that differently because you don't need to do something wrong to get yourself crucified.

So are you saying the fence is illegal without knowing the voltage and misquoting the law? The law states that the electric thread must be 15mm off the fence. Can't have it both ways. Tralee all I know of this is that I spoke with the RSPCA and I was advised that I couldnt install an electric fence of any description if my dogs were going to be exposed to it - so on my property I cant have an electric fence. Im not going to argue with them because I dont want anything which may impact on my ability to do what I do.If you are certain you fit within the prevention of Cruelty to Animals legislation good for you but I wouldn't have one here.I believe Rozzie went for an electric fence when it wasnt even turned on. I have looked up the law but not recently but have no recollection of any notations of it having to be 15 mm from anything within that legislation. Well, when I reported our neighbour at Nimbin for hitting Flynch across the head with a stick, and Alastair from the RSPCA paid as a visit, I was advised that a dog fence could be fitted with a low voltage electric fence but the thread that carries the charge must not be in contact with any part of the fence and must be a minimum of 15mm out from the fence. It is illegal to have to have voltages that are used with cattle. My device is 6 volts and when I bought it I made full enquiries with Norco who sells them. They also verified their suitablility and legality.

I'm attempting the above with you. You said there is no proof that lack of pigment is correlated with higher risk of cancer right? I'm helping you by giving you some information that will assist you in making breeding decisions. Then I hope you take note of my reply to behluka.

Purely conjecture at this stage, unfortunately. Even steve only has heresay at best. Since you are throwing down the gauntlet then you will concede if Lumen lives to 15-17 without any health issues whatsoever? Wow that is a big call especially since I don't think you even gave Lumen's current age but even I know that one dog does not make fact when it comes to health issues Not one dog at all. I can cite innumerable dogs in Italy that have similarly survived. I think that is unequivocally statistically significant.

If you are going to make 'ad hominem' arguments and fill the post with self congratulatory aggrandisement then I won't reply.

Not at all prejudicial. You bought a bitch and then a dog in good faith. You found that they will produce depigmented pups. You kept breeding knowing that some are going to be depigmented. Your choice, but not nessarly what either breeder you purchased a pup from would do? Well you don't know how I think or the advice I was given. You are not being fair or impartial. You apply one standard to Hughenden and another to me You know this is not how things work. We don't go about trying to entrap people and then make dubious claims about them in order to disparage and villify. In fact, that's illegal. What we who are more enlightened do is: facilitate, assist and develop. You seem to overlook the fact that you have history with me, and you think you can simply disregard it. I suggest you change your tact.

Purely conjecture at this stage, unfortunately. Even steve only has heresay at best. Since you are throwing down the gauntlet then you will concede if Lumen lives to 15-17 without any health issues whatsoever?

Actually NO I have no clue how to quote, and little interest in learning to be honest. not big on my *must be able to do* list. Well its easy. Just make sure the end quote has a slash in it. / Like this [/quoit] EG

Here we go. Media beat up. Frankly, I find it hard to not get passionate about someone being bailed up by several large dogs. Hard to imagine a much more terrifying situation. What a shame the man wasn't mauled to death, then maybe it would be worth getting a bit heated and passionate about it, hey? Why don't you try it and see how you fare. Good point but not admissible in Court based on the evidence presented here. It could have been set up. Maybe he hurt his arm somewhere else, knew the dogs, and is stiching someone up to pay the costs.

So you have not made any mistakes or had any learning curves that were not always what you expected or hoped? no i do not believe he treats the dogs like chattels at all. They are trusted and much needed working dogs, they protect his livelyhood. What on earth is wrong with that? i have a few puppy buyers who say things like this as well. I also have puppy buyers who tell me how much the dog has saved them in money time and sheer emotional stress just by doing what they are bred to do. Thats what I like to know. i did n ot believe for a moment that you would like him. shame that you are not listening to the SCIENCE in his presentation and in the presentation by Lee Allen from Biosecurity Queensland. Lots of science behind them both actually. Umm, do you know how to quote? lol. But thanks for the video, despite how people are trying cast aspersions on me I am not a complete dullard, and I think people know that which is why I get the pointy end so often.

Well he isn't in Queesland, he's in Victoria. I have been living on the Queensland border now for nearly 7 years. The incidence of skin cancer compared to the Southern States and even places like Broken Hill is alarming. Of course, we are on tender hooks about the possibility of melanoma, but not any more than the possibility of hypothyroidism, hip displasia or any other malattia. Lumen's owners were fully and completely appraised of his breeding. They were happy to receive him even with the opportunity to take a smaller pup. The owners and I are in regular contact, as are several of my puppy homes. I thought your post was well reasoned and sensible, hence my response. This is a bit of a witch hunt. I could reply its none of your business or anybody else's. The management of the dog is between the current owners and I. But I have been transparent in the interests of the dogs. I didn't paint their nose red. The dog came out like that. I've heard no castigation of the two breeders from where the bitch and dog were sourced by any of the respondents who are too willing to jump on the band wagon. I think that's a bit prejudicial, don't you?

I didn't see 5 vicious dogs repeatedly attacking a man. I saw one dog tugging on the man's shirt or jacket, and several times the dog who was behind and was wagging its tail, nosed the man's hand. There may be other footage, but it doesn't excuse DOL becoming as sensationalist as the media which just repeats the error.

He makes an interesting admission at the beginning. " .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well." He treats his dogs like chattell, they're expendable, what else would anyone expect! Whereas my puppy owners say things like: "Lumen is all that we hoped for and more. He has a great personality - fantastic family dog and working dog. Out in the vineyard, everyone that visits our cellar door falls in love with him!" 15/10.2010. Ponda Estate wines Anyway you miss the point entirely. Noone can say that culling the pups removes the gene, yet; other genes are being removed with them. That is simply reckless. I doubt I'll be quoting him any further.

So are you saying the fence is illegal without knowing the voltage and misquoting the law? The law states that the electric thread must be 15mm off the fence. Can't have it both ways.

:laugh: Maybe you could all meet up together. You could aggrandise your self-congratulatory remarks all day. Because I have a different view, it doesn't make it wrong. But I also allow others to have a different view, that's the difference.

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What do they guard? Ummm?

I'm just wondering how many other people have built a fence like this, in their backyard, at their town property.

I always carry litters around when I visit country properties. WTF You've repeatedly (the same people) had a go at me before and continuously come off second best. I'm happy to oblige if you wish to continue.

Two properties/places actually. LGD's are livestock. Who said they must specifically and exclusively guard chooks, goats, or sheep. Dogs can guard and protect dogs. There were four adult dogs on the Nimbin property. Nobody came in, whether there were pups on the ground or not.

Its not claming up. You are on ignore. I don't reply to your posts and with good reason

The town traffic along the road beside the fence is attrocious. I could link each photo to individual comments and expose the bigotry but why should I join in the discourteousness. I just think its really sad, and the same people over again.

These are my town neighbours over the back there.

This doesn't look like a town property to me. I paid for the fence, and doubt it would fit on a 1/4 acre

Well I go to work for one day and look what happens. Maybe you'd like to stop railroading the thread. My dogs have spent more time on working properties than in town. Why, how many properties do you have? My litters are employed as working dogs Caergwydion litter. All you have to do is name one Maremma that has won BIS in Australia and I will concede to the rude and discourteous comments made by those who have made slanderous statements. I have made investments in placing my dogs and will not have the owners confidence in me compromised. You need to think before you post.