Tralee

Well, its very easy to take selective sections and try to make a case, but nowhere is the term 'inspect' defined. For example, many dogs' mouths are shown by the handler and it makes no mention that hands must be laid on the dog so that the judge must open the dogs mouth. I could equally cite a selective section: If the dog does not show a temperamnet that is diffident and wary of strangers then the temperament is not suited to the standard. I think you miss my point. Maremma will allow themselves to be handled. I just had one at the Vet this arvo. But I made it quite clear to the Vet when greeting the dog not to rush, lunge or overly push the dog when patting. He then waited and let the dog approach and invite the interaction that followed. Beautiful dog, beautiful temperament. See, easy as pie. Each dog, in all breeds, must be examined to the breed standard in both conformation and temperament. Otherwise dog shows are just a circus.

Over the last forty years the Italians have brought the Maremma back from almost tragic and wayward breeding practices. Some of the dogs being produced in Italy are absolutely astounding and make my eyes water every time I view them. Italian Maremmas But the Italians have restored the standard including the temperament of their dogs and within the statistical distribution of temperaments many dogs in Italy can be seen being restrained, both in the ring and on the podium. In other words, the Maremma temperament is not a reason to exclude the Maremma from the Show ring but on the contrary, the correct temperament is a cause to promote these dogs to BOB and BIS. Finally, Anna Albrigo wants to add Crufts to her impressive list of BIS at World Dog Shows. Firstly, she will need to put up better dogs. She has produced other dogs that are much more impressive. Secondly, the British will also need to relinquish their wish for the Maremma to morph into a temperament that specifically suits Crufts, and Crufts' type dog shows.

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work? I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it. But if they are clearly unsuited to the current show format, and it seems they are, then why do people show them? Why do something that is against everything you say the dog (breed) stands for - so to speak? It would be so stressful for them. Well how is that fair? Dog shows are not about giving judges a nice day out and a picnic. Judges should make the effort and many do.

so you are saying the Maremma must be judged differently to every other breed of dog entered in the show? How is that fair? All the winners you have put up, are you saying the ones who do not let a judge go over them, they have the correct temperament, the ones who will tolerate an examination have incorrect temperament? Which is which? Noat at all. All breeds should be judged to the standard which means all dogs should be judged differently. The suggestion that one size fits all is absurd. There are different judges and different judging styles but I have had more than my share of judges who deliberately spook the dogs, rush at them, lunge or flick their wrist behind their ears. What is that about, but not really a mystery. The Maremma will allow judges to put their hands on them, the therapy type temperaments will but a dog who is diffident with the correct wariness of strangers will too but only on their terms.

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public. The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion. A critique of the dog chosen by Anna Albigo was not the issue being raised but the way it was judged. It had won BOB so supposedly it had done enough to enter Group. I do have criticisms as well, but we don't know the age of the dog. I'm thinking well under 18 months. I noticed the dog had an incorrect mouth, with an extremely pendulous lower lip. I would be concerned if it lacked pigment, a horse hair coat and an almond shaped eye. Certainly, I have been viewing much better dogs, from and, in Italy recently. Nevertheless, your analysis of the temperament is wrong. The Maremma does not cope with its role as guardain being usurped and what you see and ignorantly (constructive criticism here) call timid is the neurotic response that can be amplified in many Maremma and is the cause of too many dogs being rehomed. As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public. The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion. A critique of the dog chosen by Anna Albigo was not the issue being raised but the way it was judged. It had won BOB so supposedly it had done enough to enter Group. I do have criticisms as well, but we don't know the age of the dog. I'm thinking well under 18 months. I noticed the dog had an incorrect mouth, with an extremely pendulous lower lip. I would be concerned if it lacked pigment, a horse hair coat and an almond shaped eye. Certainly, I have been viewing much better dogs, from and, in Italy recently. Nevertheless, your analysis of the temperament is wrong. The Maremma does not cope with its role as guardain being usurped and what you see and ignorantly (constructive criticism here) call timid is the neurotic response that can be amplified in many Maremma and is the cause of too many dogs being rehomed. As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public. The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion. A critique of the dog chosen by Anna Albigo was not the issue being raised but the way it was judged. It had won BOB so supposedly it had done enough to enter Group. I do have criticisms as well, but we don't know the age of the dog. I'm thinking well under 18 months. I noticed the dog had an incorrect mouth, with an extremely pendulous lower lip. I would be concerned if it lacked pigment, a horse hair coat and an almond shaped eye. Certainly, I have been seeing much better dogs, from and, in Italy recently. Nevertheless, your analysis of the temperament is wrong. The Maremma does not cope with its role as guardain being usurped and what you see and ignorantly (constructive criticism here) call timid is the neurotic response that can be amplified in many Maremma and is the cause of too many dogs being rehomed. As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

Yes I know we are talking about the show ring - my comments re working were in response to Espinay asking re behaviour when they are working etc I would expect if someone were showing a dog of any breed but especially this breed that it would be a definite full on effort to ensure they were accustomed to being treated that way and handled by strangers for exactly that purpose - so it can be judged. There is no denying that this is a challenge but many dogs Ive bred are able to be in situations which ordinarily a working Maremma wouldn't see.We even have one going into a nursing home twice a week where an old lady grabs it by the face and kisses its nose and scrunches her head into his neck to tell him she loves him. He makes no move to back off or try to avoid this contact - happy for her to do anything to him she wants. He happily allows all of them to hug him and pat him but take him back home and he is back to a working dog. This is because he sees both as normal - he has always done this since he was 8 weeks old. I have people and especially children coming and going all day and if I allow the stranger up onto my porch any dog on my property is happy to be touched and handled because they know this to be normal - yet the same dogs are completely different with anyone I dont invite onto the porch. So while I agree with you that the judge needs to lay hands on it and it needs to be open to being handled and judged by strangers and this dog clearly wasn't comfortable with what was happening - my point is that I saw the reaction as normal Maremma behaviour when they are out of their comfort zone,when confronted with something they are not used to though in order for it to do what is required of it the owner needs to work more at making the dog feel that what is happening is normal - rather than making too many excuses for it not to do as required because its a breed trait. Not sure I'm explaining it properly but Tralee is right its normal Maremma behaviour but I believe that if its going to attend shows and be expected to be handled then that's exactly what it should be used to and trained to do. I could add that in other words, some Maremma do present with a 'therapy dog' temperament but it in not the correct temperament. I have had an extremely gregarious dog who was unequalled in her dog friendliness and people friendliness. However, this meant she lacked other desirable traits. She would work with foul against foxes but not thieves. It really isn't rocket science. What we saw with Anna Albrigo's dog, and she has bred dozens of National BOB's and International BIS's, is the Judge attempting to examine any other dog but not a Maremma. This is extremely frustating and has caused myself and others great consternation, time, and money in defending our dogs that are reported for aggression, in and out of the ring, only to be ultimately found to be without fault. There are two possible outcomes. The first would be a tragedy. The Maremma is distorted into a dog with a therapy type temperament just to accomadate the show ring. Or, the Maremma is judged correctly as aloof and wary of strangers, alert but not aggressive. It really is simple, if the Maremma is to be judged fairly, then it must be allowed to remain unsubmissive, and to preserve its independent role as a guardian.

I wouldn't expect them to be happy but I would expect them to put up with it. I get your point Steve but if the dog won't obey it's owner (handler) and the judge can't lay hands on the dog then the dog can't be judged properly. And we are talking about them in the show ring, not out working. I take your point, we are talking about the show ring. But the mistake that is being made with Maremma, and the consequences are as potentially severe as some of the more infamous examples of breeding for the show ring, is that demanding that Maremma present 'out of temperament' is simply trying to fit the dog to the show ring rather than allowing the dog to be what it is and adapting our judging procedures to examine the breed fairly.

Overawed is how the seasoned commentators described it. It is not a fault and a better word would be aloof if bias can be put aside. The Maremma was bred to keep the bears, the wolves and the thieves (substitute judges here) off the sheep and lambs. I notice that the Maremma is quite confident until the Judge lunges at it. Unfortunatly, the Judge only offers his hand as a second gesture but the Maremma still greats him. This acceptance shows the judge a lack of aggression. The judge should have given the dog time to approach him. The Maremma decides if it is going to allow someone approach it and they do not cope with having their role as guardian usurped. It is very important to understand that the Maremma is not submissive, particularly with strangers.

The Maremma at 25:35. It was good to see the Lead Judge at Crufts not pushing the Maremma to allow itself to be handled. True to temperament - Alert but not aggressive.

Published on 11 Mar 2013 Arena coverage of Group Judging (Pastoral) and Presentation - Crufts 2013 Presented by Anna Albrigo of Slevaspina Kennels. No surprises there. :) ETA. It was good to see the Lead Judge at Crufts, not pushing the Maremma to allow itself to be handled.

Italian Dogs if you don't mind.

Its not restricted to outback towns. Here, in civilisation, among the affluent and priveleged, the Ranger threatened to seize my dogs, take them to the tip and shoot them. Live by the sword, I say.

Oh, for the love of Mary. The dogs were let out, a fact that a local Police Officer was willing to testify to. So, someone else commits a crime and its my fault! Nobody follows that kind of logic.

I posted for the benefit of others who might be under similar oppression and corruption. I don't concur with what you think, and therefore I don't really care. Neither Councils prosecuted their cases successfully. If you think Councils are perfect then good luck to you. I don't take too kindly to being called a fool and neither should anybody else. Damage done.

Give it a rest Well that's your first mistake! Didn't you read the Collarenebri story? The Councils are getting it wrong far too often. We shall not rest! We will fight them on the beaches. There will be no surrender. Victory Yes I've read about Collarenebri and I'm also aware of the "dog" problems that exist in towns such as Bourke, Walgett, Collar, Wilcannia and the like. I also find your war references to be in poor taste at the very least. You had a run in with Council, you are the one that failed to contain your dogs in your yard, you are the one who has conceeded and accepted a control order. I think you might need to go and have a little think about how your situation came about and how it differs from others that have been reported in the media, because at the moment you can't be taken seriously and look the fool, when you wade into every topic where "Council" is mentioned, regardless of what the topic actually is. This topic is about a person who has a lot of dogs and appeared not to have the appropriate approvals and licences to operate a breeding facility and as such has been taken to court. Councils and Rangers don't take great delight in waiting around, contriving some kind of entrapment, and then jump up and down claiming hero status as you put it. Councils would much rather that "breeders" and owners comply with their building requirements, seek the necessary approvals and licences, before they commence such ventures. However, there will always be those who choose to fly under the radar and are eventually busted for doing so. Perhaps you might need to go back and have a look at what happens once you shift from being simply a "dog owner" to a "dog breeder" in NSW, because the whole ball game changes there. Breed a litter and the requirements become a lot stricter. Like the majority of small time breeders in NSW, I doubt your place is up to scratch and you could certainly find yourself without the necessary housing arrangements and DA approvals, that could land you in the same hot water as this Victorian breeder. Well, bully for you. It is not a case of IMO here but in my experience. I wouldn't wish you to continue to be misinformed about the facts. The gate at the rear of the property was compromised by some crazy from either; the needle exchange across the road, the new Mental Heath Hospital a few doors down, or Family Services just up the road. He was consequently arrested by police because he rampaged through the neighbourhood looking for his children who apparently had just been taken from him by Family Services. The dogs were not at large due to any negligence or ommission on my part. Locked gates would not have deterred his rampage as he simply broke doors and windows as he wrecked havock and mayhem along the street. You should be more careful who you try to cast as irresponsible. I did not concede to a control order and had a number options available to me. On the contrary, the Council conceded they had errantly issued 4 DDD's, that the Ranger had been remiss in his duties, and indeed the Council compromised and acceded to my demands. It was appealled in court and the appeal was upheld. Absolutely right, its about dog advocacy. You seem so driven to malign and villify others that you are blind to the all the issues involved and particulalry those that are most pertinient. The Council are part of the problem, so are the laws such as the Companion Animals Act NSW 1998, and the Breeding of Cats and Dogs Regulations. You know, someone should start a splinter group like MDBA or something. Not at war as such but nothing is getting done elsewhere. I have exposed one unfortunate chink in dog managment and control, it cost me time and money but my reputation is intact, possibly enhanced. What have you done exactly other than fling mud? I can name one particular Ranger, and I have his comments available, so that theory is shot to pieces. Anyway back to our advocacy for dogs and ignoring those hell bent on villifying people.

Give it a rest Well that's your first mistake! Didn't you read the Collarenebri story? The Councils are getting it wrong far too often. We shall not rest! We will fight them on the beaches. There will be no surrender. Victory

If City Councils spent more time assisting, developing and facilitating dog owners then these type of avoidable farces could be eliminated. Instead they just wait around, almost contriving some kind of entrapment, and then jump up and down claiming hero status. Give me a break! I haven't seen a City Council yet who hasen't put the town's coffers ahead of their ratepayers interests. The moral of the story is to not be blinded by the authorities and bureaucrats.

This is just an absolute disgrace. And, all too common.

There was an allegation that the four dogs had attacked a person. The dogs were declared to be dangerous dogs because they: had, without provocation, attacked a person or animal (other than vermin) had displayed unreasonable aggression towards a person or animal (other than vermin). Let me quote from my Barrister for you to decide amongst yourselves whether the DDDs were dismissed or not, and let others judge your interpretation of that quote. If you and the others wish to dispute the reading of the judgement made by my Barrister and the presiding Judge who oversaw the case then I suggest you contact them in person and put your objections.

Yep. Got it in one. I don't talk in riddles or try to antogonise people, I am Tralee. There are a lot of threads to put together because I offered to provide further information if people required it. I didn't ask for a retrial, or to be tried by social media, as some seem to think it is their right to do. In regard to my puppy girl, she is sorely missed, not just by myself but by the other dogs as well.