Tralee

I hope it never comes to this, but how else would you prove that a judge pushed your dog to the point of getting a negative reaction? Its happened before more than once. I had a pair of judges antagonise the same dog four times over a full weekend. I've already outlined that this abhorrent behaviour was witnessed and testified to by another All Breed Judge and other exhibitors. I have not forgotten their name and I don't ever wish to encounter them again. But if I uncover this type of behaviour, then I have a moral obligation and social responsibility to ensure justice is done whatever the cost. People like that should have their judging credentials withdrawn. But, there are also minor and inadvertant infractions that are enormously frustrating and annoying, not to mention unfair to the dog. I don't not like to see any dog unnecesarily 'nobbled' and denied its full recognition.

Lets be fair. The dog was kennelled in Queensland for three weeks prior to the show. They bathed the dog and I collected him the night before. They never mentioned any wound so, he could have done it after he was washed. I didn't notice any wound until after he was awarded Breed in the Open Show. Nevertheless, the Judge made the statement to the Steward that he was not aggressive since he was gregarious and friendly towards the judge. I notified the Judge just before the Group runoffs that Ihad found a wound. No one was more surprised than I was when he was awarded Open in Group. Before the Championship Show I inadvertantly passed the Judge, told her that I hoped it wasn't irregular, and inquired if I should enter him since he had a wound and was not happy being examined. She was concerned mostly about the dog and expressed a wish that he shouldn't unnecessarily be involved in an incident. Her advice was not to take him into the ring. I put it to her that I was not interested in the points and had only brought out for an outing having not shown him for a number of years and that if he would not allow an examination then I would withdraw him. Consequently, I took him into the ring and she requested that I take him out as he clearly was not going to let her go past his head. But he might have let her pass her hands over him, I don't have a crystal ball. Look I don't really care if someone else's Maremma advances past my dogs. I am not talking about the six point grands here. My point is Maremmas have the potential to be better represented at Shows. Clearly, both the Breed and the Judging at shows needs development. Isn't this the purpose of dialogue. You know, I hope I'm talking to the right people.

And this is basically what we have been saying IMO. No one expects them to be golden retrievers. But as you state that with exposure they can be conditioned to the show ring and there is a difference between a dog that is naturally wary as part of its breed makeup and one that is overly shy etc. I have raised questions on the Italian TMC for example and received no feedback on that and how the style of handling differs from what Australian judges are doing. I think many are just concerned (and frustrated by the lack of direct reply) that what is being expected of judges in this instance is not something that should be expected or even needed for the correct judging of the breed? Well I answer to questions that I deem pertinent. I have learnt not to reply to queries that seem obviously leading or less than sincere. The issue is the level to which Maremma advance at Shows in this Ccountry when they seem to be very well represented at achieving BIS in European Shows. I have posited two explanations. Firstly, the quality of our dogs needs further development. If you look at my dogs FB page then it would be hard to argue that the Italian dogs are not far and above superior to our dogs. Secondly, our dogs are not going to be advanced if we don't have a level playing field. Sooki had neary 400 points but I declined to continue with her on to 1000 points because she has never had, and was unlikely to win a BIS. The best she did was Class in Group. I objected to awarding Grand to a dog that has never won a BIG or a BIS long before the new criteria was introduced. Similarly, Winja has in excess of 100 points and I am entering him in EKKA this year because he looks much more representative of the Italian dogs than those I see around. The claims and accusations of handler faults and lack of training are groundless. There was a blatant example of deliberate misjudging of Winja when he was still in Minor Puppy by a pair of judges which was witnessed and testified to by another All Breeds Judge and other exhibitors. Generally, my dogs perform satisfactorily, nevertheless, the number of times in which the dogs are pushed off their demeanor, and I concede it is often inadvertent, is significant and unfair. I stopped showing for a number of years for this reason. But let me point out something else. We have had far less problems in Queensland than we have had in NSW. I have a real concern about a very real issue that I should not have to concern myself with when I take the dogs on an outing to a Show. I am not a vindictive person and I do not want to have to be put into a position where I need to film and record my dogs attendance in order to protect my dogs from - incompetence or corruption. I pay CCC fees and I pay Show fees. I keep my dogs in the best possible condition and no expense is spared for their care. I expect my dogs to be welcome, accepted, appreciated and allowed to compete on equal terms. Those terms are dictated by the dogs and their standard, not by the convenience of some Judge, the expediency of the Hosting Kennel Club or any oversight of the State CCC.

This. And while all breeds judges might not be able to apply the detailed knowledge a specialist can, when it comes to temperament, I think this thread shows a bit of tortuous self-justification. I show a breed that isn't effusive with strangers. Not effusive with strangers doesn't mean "can't stand and be examined in the presence of its owner/master/handler". It's interesting that Azawakhs were dragged in. I think if people knew what many of those silkily perfect Afghans are really like (note "a certain keen fierceness" in the standard) they would have renewed respect for their handlers. The thing is, those handlers, and the handlers of Dobes and some of the stroppier terriers are all over it. The dogs are examined, they behave, there is no drama. A Maremma is not a Presa. I think it is a little rude to say that I "dragged Azawakhs in". I had spent a really pleasant hour or so chatting with the owners of the Azawakhs at the Canberra Royal, admiring their dogs, discussing the fun and games of showing a breed new to Australia and the idiosyncrasies of their breed. They were the ones who told me that the breed wasn't touched by Judges overseas and that only once in Australia had they had a judge "who knew how they were to be judged". I wasn't dragging anything in, I was interested in what they had to say, it matched what I'd read about the breed and didn't take anything away from what I thought of their dogs. I raised what they said because, whilst Tralee annoys many on here (including me many times), he didn't appear to me to be saying anything different to what these people had to say. I found your contribution very helpful, supportive and in the best interests of the dogs. The intentions of hosts and authorities at Dogs Shows are no more immune to the risks of being coopted by those who either inadvertently or deliberately turn them into political power struggles and personal self interests endeavours than is any other human enterprise. I found the comments by some that certain breeds can be singled out for bias, prejudice and discrimination extraordinary. Making claims that dog shows are sport (I doubt that they fit the criteria of games unless you place hunting in the sport group) and dogs should be seasoned experts and flawless to a fault is just ignorant. Why bother with baby puppy, minor puppy, puppy, junior and intermediate classes if dogs are not wanted until they are mature and have mellowed into an adult attitude?

Yes it is. You can have her x-rayed after 45 days, but not before, because the bones would not have ossified and will not be detected. You need to know because if she has pups then you will need to increase her feed. If she is so far along then a palpitation and an ultrasound will tell you if you need to prepare her for a whelp. Very observant, good job.

Delete the pic and reload zoiboy. I have several similar assessments. It seems like a good idea to me. It would be good if Judges could be Maremma certified. I am serious.

This breeder (IMO), seen here with Anna Albrigo, is currently producing dogs which are better than the dog Anna presented at Crufts this year. And you can see that she is aware of the quality of his dogs.

how could they protect their flock if they were corralled with their humans? isn't night time when there is the most danger? Think I might do some more reading at work tonight. What work do your dogs do Tralee? Oh, come on! 'H' has told me all those stories. They are hardly 'historical'

IL CIRCOLO DEL PASTORE MAREMMANO Discretemente attivo fu il Circolo del Pastore Maremmano, con a capo la dottoressaFranca Terruzzi, che organizzò anche alcune mostre speciali (le prime ufficiali), come quella di Brescia del 1952, prima in assoluto, con ben dodici cani presenti, o quella di Firenze pochi anni dopo che raccolse, grazie al grande impegno dei principi Corsini, ben ventiquattro soggetti provenienti anche da regioni distanti dalla Toscana. Finalmente, il nostro bel cagnone bianco entra nel giro della espizioni cinofile e contende in maniera che dignitosa i migliori piazzamenti sui ring d' onore ad altre razze allora ben più diffua e conosciate. Sono proprio di questi anni i primi campioni italiani di bellezza, come Roll (allev. E propr. Clementina Bazzini Piella), primo in assoluto nel 1953; Calf, nel 1954, bellisimo and veramente tipico maschio di cui il proprietario, nonchè allevatore, l'insegner Serrano, andava oltremente fiero; maremmano Jela, prima campionessa della dottoeressa Teruzzi, che ama ricordarla come "cane dolcissimo coni padroni, ma veramente terribile con gli estranei". I understand that not everyone is fluent in Italian so here is a translation in which I have kept some of the peculiarities of Italian grammer. THE CLUB OF THE MAREMMANO SHEPHERD The Maremmano Shepherd Club was discretely active, with Dr. Franca Teruzzi as head and did organize some special exhibitions (the first official), like that of Brescia in 1952, an absolute first, with twelve dogs present, or like those gathered at Florence a few years after that when twenty-four subjects also came from regions as far as Tuscany, thanks to the great commitment of the Corsini princes. Finally, our beautiful whites entered the dog lovers exhibition and he contends in a dignified manner taking the best placements in the ring of honor against other breeds then well more diffuse and their affiliates. In these years, the first Italian Champions of beauty, like Roll (breeder and owner, Clementina Bazzini Piella), an absolute first in 1953; Calf in 1954, beautiful and truly typically male, whose breeder Mr Serrano was overall proud; Maremmano Jela, first Champion bitch of Dr Teruzzi who recorded "a dog very sweet with the owner but truly terrible with strangers". I must have my quip. It seems to me that the Maremma is not only suited to the Show ring but if they were denied entry in Italy, it would raise the question: Which breed would take their place as 'the Masthead' at Italian Nationals.

I never said specific to Australia. I said particular to Australia. Anyway, I have no interest in what the Americans are doing with an Italian dog, other than the dog that I sent to Hawaii.

True, but that's not the issue. An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show. In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs. Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent. But neither should be excusable. It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future. It happened at Crufts for cries sakes. I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all. I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council. Perhaps there's your problem. You might need a rethink on that list and perhaps looking at your dogs as being suitable as potential breeders ( type, temperament, structure and soundness ), then what the dogs were actually bred for and can they do the job. They may or may not make a great companion and given the breed history it would be rather arse about to put "companion" anywhere near the top of the list, along with exhibition. You can blame judges all you like, but you are the one who has ultimately put your dog in an environmemt that it's not typically suited for. You just won't accept the conclusions of someone with a modicum of intelligence that has learned something about the breed. What you say about Maremmas not being a companion dog is just utter tripe. They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans. They've always had human contact. The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there. I don't know why you don't concede that you are talking through your hat. There is no disgrace is saying you don't know or conceding that you can in fact learn something from others.

True, but that's not the issue. An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show. In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs. Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent. But neither should be excusable. It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future. It happened at Crufts for cries sakes. I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all. I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council.

They do it in Italy. They are the progenitors of the Breed. Are they not the leaders? (Rhetorical question)

Oh terrific. Just what we need, a hegemonony of oppression and discrimination. As it stands at the moment, there are a number of them out there as a disaster waiting to happen. If the correct temperament for the breed, means that it will not readily accept the hands of a stranger ( which is required in the ring ) then perhaps it is best that they are not shown. If dulling and dumbing it down is the sacrafice that has to be made in order to achieve a "show dog" then that's certainly not in the best interests of the breed. There is no oppression or disrimination involved, the ring is not place for a dog that cannot be judged according to Australian ring standards. As I recall you've had problems with your dogs in the past in the ring. Have I? Which dog has been banned? I am sure dogs have been banned, and quite a large number of them, but none of my dogs. It is clear that you are aligning yourself against the dogs and therefore your judgment cannot be trusted. I would simply hope that you do not have a casting vote on any board or council in which I am directly connected. I think this is: Good Day Ma'am

There may be a difference between the two but they are both categorised as temperaments. I am led to believe that a puppy who is a fussy eater, or equally a puppy who shows excessive food guarding are potential temperament problems. This doesn't mean they should be dismissed, it just means they will need extra consideration in the way they are raised. Somehow, I am beginning to lean towards the view that no dog needs to be condemned.

Oh terrific. Just what we need, a hegemonony of oppression and discrimination.

I never said they had to be friendly, what I expect is for them to tolerate it. No. You miss the whole nuance of the argument and the protest. The Maremma does not tolerate. The Maremma is not a submissive breed, they do not submit to a stranger's expectations. Either do they submit to the accompanying shepherd. On the contrary, they work in partnership sharing the role of guardian, notwithstanding, they don't need the shepherd for their role as guadian. I simply do want to see shows being turned into a circus. The dogs are presented as they should be, I don't need some patsy of a dog doing endless circus tricks for the convenience of a Judge or Kennel Club or Canine Council that can't be bothered to make the extra effort to accomodate all breeds, maintain a level playing field and apply the rules fairly. They are my expectations as a paid member of a CCC. Then perhaps they have no place in the show ring at all Then perhaps you should write to the ANKC and ask them to remove the Maremma from its Breed lists. Youknow, that's really a thoughtless, inconsiderate and bigoted statement. It just shows you haven't taken my comments or the comments of others on balance. No-one is arguing that the dogs are to be accepted if they are vicious. The fear is, and it is a very real fear, that the temperament be so grossly distorted that the Breed becomes something akin to the British Maremma. A total Show Ring patsy.

I did, and almost as soon as the thread appeared here.

I've already seen the Sydney Royal, I just prefer to look to the Italian competitions. The Italians have worked damn hard over the past few decades to return their breed to its ideal conformation and temperament. Well, I certainly am not going to malign or berate other Maremma breeders or exhibitors My advocacy for the breed precedes the screening of the Crufts video, but if you believe you can or have achieved much more than Anna Albrigo with innumerable intenational BOB's and BIS's, who chose to present that dog at Crufts then high kudos to you. Allevamento di Selvaspina. Selvaspina's Champion Maremmas Notwithstanding, there are a few other breeders in Italy who have dogs that surpass her breeding lines. IMO You know. I had a girl who was no trouble at all in the Show Ring. Unfortunately, I did not care much for her temperament. A dog that has to be restrained, on the podium but yet can still win BIS in Italy and Internationally surely tells us something about the true essence of the Maremma. Colloquially, the British dogs are too soft in terms of temperament, and the American dogs are to hard. I believe the Italians have found the true expression of temperament in the Maremma and I will take my cues from them. You have to excuse me if I give very little credence to some observers on the far distant fringes of exhibiting Maremma.

The Maremma will allow itself to be handled, but it has to be on its terms. This is particularly acute when dogs (males) are puppies. A Maremma owner should be astute enough to understand that some shows will have to be withdrawn from, the dogs will sometimes need to be slowly accustomed to being shown. But judges should not be trying to condemn a dog in order to quickly eliminate it. Judges should be facilitating, assisiting and developing dogs with their exhibitors, but then those dogs simply just don't get Group, BOB, Class or whatever. We're not stupid you know.

I never said they had to be friendly, what I expect is for them to tolerate it. No. You miss the whole nuance of the argument and the protest. The Maremma does not tolerate. The Maremma is not a submissive breed, they do not submit to a stranger's expectations. Either do they submit to the accompanying shepherd. On the contrary, they work in partnership sharing the role of guardian, notwithstanding, they don't need the shepherd for their role as guadian. I simply do want to see shows being turned into a circus. The dogs are presented as they should be, I don't need some patsy of a dog doing endless circus tricks for the convenience of a Judge or Kennel Club or Canine Council that can't be bothered to make the extra effort to accomodate all breeds, maintain a level playing field and apply the rules fairly. They are my expectations as a paid member of a CCC.

and, in the show ring, just how many extra minutes do we allow a maremma to make up it's mind whether to allow a judge to examine it or not? And should the same courtesy be extended to other dogs/breeds? It doesn't involve extra minutes at all. It simply means not rushing the dog, not lunging at the dog, not flicking the wrist behind the ears and not setting out to spook the dog. All of these deliberate and unintentioned acts I have witnessed first hand. I could tell you about one particular married pair who deliberately orchestrated an unrelenting tirade on my dogs over a full weekend of showing, all witnessed by another all breed judge, and the two of them then went off and laughed about it to another Maremma breeder. You can put up objections as much as you like but the dogs are not going to submit to inconsiderate approaches. So how is that fair?