GavinM

Proof? Bullying has always been around. And I'm not saying it's okay, of course it isn't, don't put words into my mouth. Just because people are bullied in school or the workplace doesn't mean it's all like that. The good as in getting quality education from good teachers, making new friends and involving oneself in social activities and taking advantage of the resources the school has. I'm saying it's better because you are being taught from people who are qualified, from a range of disciplines, and you're in a social environment where you will learn social skills as you go. If you're saying school is bad because of bullying, then I guess work must be bad too! Because guess what? Bullying happens there too. Like it or lump it, it's a part of life and not everyone is an angel.

Good for you guys for signing it, and I agree with the principle of it. Unfortunately, internet petitions are a complete waste of time and solve nothing. With rare exceptions of course, like with tens of thousands of signatures and involving the media and people in high places

And this happens to every single student, right? The good outweighs the bad - of course bullying is going to happen. It even happens in the workplace. But that's a fact of life, some people will be a-holes but don't use that to make such a pessimistic outlook of things. As for stabbed - do you really think most schools are like that? What is this, the Bronx?

Other animals carry numerous disease too (and as for bacteria, most pointless comment - everything carries bacteria). Do you have any proof that mice are more intrinsically prone to disease than other animals, such as bats and birds? Maybe not as likely to be found in your house, but how do you know a mouse on its own has more disease? I'm using other animals as a general rule to highlight the point that animals carry disease regardless of what they are, and thus the amount of hysteria relating to mice is a little overrated. What I am saying and why I'm using that general rule is that just because something has disease doesn't mean it deserves to die. You don't even know for sure that the mouse you catch, for example, even has any disease. It's simply a matter of convenience. Please spare me your ikyness arguments. I even know people who are more dirty than a mouse ever will be. Pigeons for example have the potential to carry lots of nasty stuff - and they poop everywhere, especially in places where people gather like town squares, verandas and train stations. They are also introduced pests. But you don't see everyone get the nearest heavy object and bash them over the heads. Yes, I support catch and release. Do you know why? Because I find it morally questionable to kill when it's not necessary. Mice aren't the only animals that carry tapeworm and fleas, either. Regardless if you kill them or let them go, there are a lot of other animals that can actually expose you to the same thing. Releasing a single mouse isn't going to make an iota of difference. The only reason I am moving the mouse is because I can't co-exist with it in my home due to obvious reasons that have already been touched on - but killing it for simply existing? No, I don't agree with that at all. You call me small minded for saying this, well, back at you with this Neanderthal "kill kill" attitude. Apologies if I find it a little wrong to kill something that's never hurt me, and that doesn't really need to be killed to solve my immediate problem. I don't care if they spread disease, every single animal spreads disease. That isn't the point. I don't need to revisit anything here, because it appears from first glance you don't really know much about the plague. People releasing mice back into the wild isn't going to cause Plague any time soon, especially in a country where it doesn't even exist or is so rare that there have been no recent records of it. A few factors you are not seeming to consider here: 1) Lack of hygiene/sanitation were massive factors in the spread of plague, something that is no problem here. 2) People killed off their natural predators, cats and snakes especially because they were considered "the devil". This made the rodent population explode. 3) The flea responsible for carrying the disease hitched a ride on humans too - in fact this explains the reason why the Plague travelled faster than rats could ever manage. So enlighten me, in a country that is relatively hygienic, with good sanitation systems and are world leaders in modern medicine - how is plague on the back of people releasing a few mice even relevant at all? Ho ho! You're calling me arrogant when you supposedly know of my experiences? Because most parents aren't qualified teachers, for one. And you miss out on the important social aspect that schools actually provide. Could write a thesis on this, but that will be going OT so I'm going to stop right there.

That's why they are supposed to be checked often. The mice I've caught with this method were never bloodied, showed no signs of distress and looked calm as ever while munching on pieces of monte carlo. I'm guessing they are probably used to humans, but then again, I was careful as possible not to startle so kept movement and noise to an absolute minimum. So, again, I cannot see how this is more cruel than any of the other traditional methods apart from a quick, clean kill. That particular law is outdated and the reasoning is flawed. Fining someone $200 for being humane and compassionate is ridiculous, especially considering that releasing the animal is not going to make one iota of difference. Maybe one day someone will 'break' it and successfully challenge it on its own logical merit. So far, this has not happened because no law enforcement agency is going to waste precious resources and money on a person who was just trying to be nice. Yet no one has suggested this. I'm only saying it is morally questionable to kill when it's not necessary.

Well, that's awesome for you - but don't kid yourself into thinking that home-schooling is as good as primary/high school. Your parents might have been clever and educated enough, but sadly in most cases, this is not the case.

Cats can also carry a lot of nasties - in fact, would you like me to list every single disease human beings can potentially carry? I'm sure it would overwhelm that list. People like to bring up the plague but forget to mention that humans were also plague carriers - the fleas hitched a ride on anything warm-blooded so that they could feed. It explains why Iceland suffered the Plague when no rats existed there at the time. So what is your point?

That is Tasmanian law. And it is such a pointless law because how exactly is it possible to enforce something like that? Why do humane traps exist in the market then? Going to call the cops because someone released a field mouse? They're more likely to charge the other person for wasting their time. As far as I know, no one has ever been fined for such a thing and it makes sense - because what rational court would accept a case like that, or even a Sherrif's department? Ohh right, for revenue raising maybe? Even the term "vermin" is not really defined, one could argue that it was not. BTW, people let their cats outdoor all the time - is that illegal too considering even domesticated cats could be considered "vermin" ? It is a stupid, trivial law that's nigh on impossible to enforce and it shouldn't stop people from listening to their conscience. $200 for being compassionate? Just as ridiculous as a $150 for feet on seats on trains - it's revenue raising, nothing more.

Well..perhaps ,next time ,have a closer look . Often they have bloodied mouths/paws, from trying to chew/dig out. They are very often dehydrated and their heart rates are thru the roof ..or conversely, they may be still and cold and in shock. If the cage is an open weave, they are very often stressed just be in an exposed position. I have stopped using those traps, after seeing the state of captive mice If the cage has ample food/water and is checked regularly, then that really shouldn't be a problem. You can get cages that are partially covered too. I've used them before and find the mouse happily eating whatever's there.

Can't see how given a cage trap does not physically hurt them.

How old are you? I'm assuming you're 13.

But you still need to follow relevant laws when dealing with them (ie. it's illegal to torture them to death). I don't care if it's your house or yard, that gives you no reason to painfully kill something that was just at the wrong place, at the wrong time. Yes, because saying it's wrong to torture animals to death, or question the morality of killing, means that I am OK with letting them run havoc in my house. Yes, makes perfect sense that. Third world countries have these problems because of lack of sanitation/hygiene/education in this matter, not because mice may or may not inherently have more disease than other wild animals. When people have no functioning toilets, leave rubbish everywhere and poop in the streets... well, of course you're going to have problems with disease... but nooo it's all the mouse's fault! Don't blame the animal, blame the humans that cause them to flourish in the first place.

The person needs more than a biology lesson if a five year old child knows that a mouse is actually an animal. Good lord, is jazzy4 a product of home-schooling or a failing education system? Scary thought.

Actually, rodents are very important to the food chain. They are a staple diet to many animals, for which without, would be catastrophic. They are also used in medical research - it is a no-brainer to say how important mice are here. In addition, some people keep them as pets. Comparing an animal that has no ill-intent and no malice to you, to someone like a pedophile or rapist is moronic. Unlike that group of humans, these animals mean no harm. And another ridiculous comment - they're not animals? What are they, then? Plants? A type of rock? Rodents are part of the Class Mammalia, that are part of the Kingdom Animalia. Maybe you should pick up a book and read rather than spurt our ignorant, uneducated rubbish. Nothing you have said justifies being cruel/inhumane to these animals... "in what ever way you can", what is that supposed to mean? Does that mean it's OK that someone can, say, douse one in petrol and set it alight? It is no surprise the people who typically condone the abuse of animals or do it themselves are usually uneducated and/or stupid. Thanks for clarifying that! Yet you mentioned it as if something like that should be accepted/as a matter of fact. And yes, you do need a biology lesson... in fact, you need to finish primary school. Rodents are mammals are animals. Even my 5 year old niece knows this! I think you're trying to pass them off as not being animals as a reason to be cruel to them, that's my interpretation from your comments here.

Yes there is - it's called respecting life in general and not being an a-hole to other animals. Hmm, they also feel pain/fear - that's a good enough reason as any to be humane. Humans also spread filth and disease, what a moot point, that doesn't mean we should treat each other inhumanely. Every animal should be treated humanely, it's not their fault that they're just trying to survive. There's zero excuse for cruelty to them. Wow - your brother and cousins sounded like they needed a backsided slap to the head. Why the hell would they torment a defenceless animal like that? Disgusting, typical redneck behaviour. Didn't your parents teach them a bit of decency and respect? In fact, why did you even bother mentioning this? It sounds like you condone such cruel behaviour, and using "oh but they carry disease and they're a pest" excuse. Well, you're the pest mate.

You've obviously never heard of the "fight or flight" response. Putting the animal in a very small enclosure, only for you to give it to your dogs is exceedingly cruel and your dog may possibly get bitten. Tell me how you're different from the people who buy mice from the pet store and throw them to their cats? As I said, it's a bloodsport.

Dogs are an excellent pest control solution. If the mouse is brave enough to transverse where they are... well, nature will do its work.

I already said that catch and release might not be viable when it comes to an infestation. Looks like someone skimmed rather than read! In answer to your question, there are many cage traps out in the market that are designed to catch multiple mice, unharmed. Either way though, traps aren't going to do squat if you do not eliminate their food source and actually block where they are coming from in the first place. Killing them is a band-aid solution that treats the symptom, not the disease. Besides, humane could also mean quick-kill - a merciful death. I'm just saying that killing is not always necessarily the first option! And looking at the OP's problem, it seems that the mouse is outside - and not in their house. So why kill something that is not bothering you? Their dogs will either kill it or simply co-exist - saying the dogs will fall ill/get sick from one single mouse is absolutely ridiculous. These are animals that are known to chomp on mice, and eat raw chicken, after all! Something that a human would be sick from.

Oh great, someone is condoning animal baiting (actually an illegal practice). For the uninformed, animal baiting is the act of deliberately trapping an animal, and giving it to another animal so that they fight each other in an enclosed space. Like badger baiting in the UK, or rat baiting in the old days. Hunting with dogs and ferrets outside is acceptable because that’s not only natural but you are not deliberately putting any animal in an inescapable position. Your "method" is just a bloodsport. Is that spittle I saw when you post that? Why bother killing when the problem can be solved simply by relocating them? Are you telling me you like killing them? Or are you just too lazy to be more humane? No, they have pest exterminators for complete suckers who like to waste their money. What skill is there placing a trap? Though it’s absolutely refreshing to see people not resort to cruelty to solve problems, for a change.

Far too much Neanderthal thinking from what I’ve seen. Nothing wrong with being a “bleeding heart”, just means the person is a compassionate human being – something that’s lacking in this world sadly. Every wild animal breeds, causes disease and spreads bacteria. That’s not a good argument to kill something. Mice are no more or less prone to carrying disease than, say, a possum or a bat. What has me dumbfounded is people’s lack of compassion here. Some people obviously don’t want to kill animals, so what? Why do you think there are humane traps in the market? To give the user a choice. Killing one mouse isn’t going to avoid said risk anyway. And for all we know, the mouse could get eaten by a predator in the wild. Most mice that are born do not survive because of exposure/lack of resources and predators – so releasing a mouse in the wild where there is a healthy population of owls and tawny frogmouths is no problem. Yet you are ultimately killing something simply because it exists. If one can remove their mouse problem by releasing it elsewhere, then they have reached their aim. What the mouse does outside is outside their control and completely irrelevant to their situation. Not all mice are even pests – Australia has many species of native mouse if I recall. People say mice are disgusting, but what is more disgusting is this “kill kill kill” attitude that isn’t necessary a lot of the time. Killing should be seen as a final resort. And I have to chuckle at the people who see mice with such revulsion, when they use glue traps. I mean, seriously? Glue traps should be banned nationwide, they already are in a few states. The entire concept of sticking a live mammal in super glue, for it to rip itself to pieces, gnaw its own legs off, struggle in a pool of its own excrement, in complete terror just to dehydrate/starve to death when there are more humane methods to deal with the problem is inhumane, cruel, lacking of humanity and is more repulsive than a mouse ever will be. Sometimes people amaze me with their double standards and slippery moral slope when it comes to dealing with animals. “Pest” and “vermin” are arbitrary terms, used by people to justify their actions and to feel less guilt. Rubbish. Mice have been around for centuries to the extent that Mother Nature has adapted – they have become such a part of our environment that some animals actually depend on them to survive. All you are doing by releasing them is doing a favour to the food chain. Of course, if you have an infestation then catch and release would not really be viable. But for a single or only a few mice, catch and release is a viable alternative depending on where you live. People don’t give a damn whether the mice may go to their neighbour’s homes, they kill because it is most convenient for them – because they are too lazy to spend something like 15 mins to walk down a couple of blocks to release the animal. Saddens me people hurt and kill simply because the animal is “disgusting” or “non-native”. So what? Remember, the people who own these homes aren’t native to their land either – means absolutely nothing. Most of it comes from an irrational fear of small crawling things… some of the stuff I’ve seen pest control groups attribute to animals like mice is ridiculous, to the extent of demonising simply because they want people’s money. Mice/rats/etc aren’t beings from hell out to get you, they are animals simply trying to adapt to a changing environment. Like it or lump it, they are here to stay, and killing a single mouse at the end of the day isn’t going to do anything except possibly play on your conscience if you give a damn. However, I am more worried about people who use things like glue traps and torture the animals as a means of disposal, using their “pest” status as a reason. While I am saying that killing an animal when it’s not necessary is morally questionable, torturing small helpless animals is sub-human. People who use glue traps are sociopaths, having seen what they can do to animals, I have a really good case for that if you wanna hear.