JoeK

People needing to understanding that a good Pitbull needs to have the trait of social aggression in the genes and without social aggression you cannot train a fighting dog to do the job. If a good Pitbull come to the hands of people who cant handle the social aggression and train him for nice behavior then danger from this dog can be easily happening and we cant rely on people breeding the Pitbull with no social aggression in the trait otherwise is like Amstaff. So if someone breeding proper Pitbull with the proper trait and ending up on the wrong owners is why they ban the dog when anyone can get him easily. People saying the Pitbull has breeding for no human aggression is the same for German Shepherd Dog, but the trait of social aggression in the genes of both this dogs if handled and training incorrect dogs can bite acting from the trait. Social aggression is only bad trait when owners of dogs like this dont train them properly and when trait come out dominant and uncontrolled is what making dangerous dogs who will bite. Joe

People here I noticing very much loving the Steve the K9 pro and he done a section on the socialise is similar on the nutralise as I speak in the discussing and is here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/150837-puppy-socialisation/ Joe

Just what concerns me Joe is that the owner of that dog now has to micromanage that dog for over a decade, making sure that a child never runs up and touches the dog on the head, keeping every offlead dog away from it, making sure the dog never needs to be handled abruptly by strangers etc etc. The dog has never been exposed to those things and therefore is an unknown quantity. Yes, no dog is 100% solid, but at least the dogs which have been correctly exposed and taught to have appropriate responses are a bit safer bet. I talk on the raising and training on the dog to get him where he needing to be first, and when we achieving this is when we can introducing other things. By that time, the handler has pretty good knowledge on the dog and know how to control and focus the dog, so he can take the social skill further then. Is difficult to incorporating so many things together in the raising and training to end up with good dog and most of the pets is too hard for the owners and they giving up and accept the dog is not much chop for the controlling of him or her becuase my opinion most do it wrong in the first place and causing their own lacking of focus and control. If the dog is temperament weak on nerve or sharp and defensive drive, you can tame the beast, but you cant trust him like child interaction so micromanage on this dog is needed for life. If the dog is strong on nerve and lay back on the tempermanet with no reactive from fear, this dogs is the best pets for interaction and social skills developing I am thinking. A lot of this depending on the actual dog and what genes he brings to the table for pet suitability and ability to learning the social skills nicely, is not all about how the socialise is done on raising is my point becuase some dogs of the wrong genes for pet adapting doesnt matter what is done in the socialise or training, anti social temperament is born in the dog. Is not about how the dog is socialised and raised to have nice dog, is about more important to buy puppy from a breeding that produce the nice genes for a pet dog. What I meaning is my opinion is wrong to thinking that if you buy a puppy and you do this A B and C on the socialise formular will garantee nice dog in the end, becuase for A B and C to be working for plan, the dog needs the genes for this to be working. Joe

Sorry I disagree that your Mindy girl behaves because she sees dogs and plays everyday. Her behaving come from her genes you see as a puppy she could focus around other puppy from beginning and her focus is born in the dog. Is not about the playing with other dogs causing this, she have the focus value already born in her genes, so saying your dog working the way she is doing because of the soclialise is wrong. She working like that becuase she is a good dog naturally and adpating easy for what you need her doing. Joe Joe

Neutralising a dog is NOT about putting it in a kennel and never socialising it or exposing it to anything new. It's about socialising the dog extensively like you should but socialising it to things and assigning those things with a neutral or low positive value. Like I said above - IMO neutralising a dog is not about not socialising it. It's all about the value you attach to new experiences when you do. I don't understand the desire to have dogs that find playing with other dogs highly rewarding. Daisy is naturally a dog that has low interest in other dogs, she rarely wants to play with them, and when she does she never sees play with other dogs as more valuable or fun than what I can offer. I don't see how that is sad, she's "allowed" to be a dog, she gets to do far more exciting and fun things than the average dog, she's certainly not unhappy. The average pet owner may want something different from their dog but I don't understand why it's so important that your dog plays with other dogs day in day out. We have far more fun and exciting things to do The dog attaching the value to things from the genes is not from the handler. If the dog not liking the tug of war game or chasing the ball for the retrieve is in the dog from birth. The handler in training can improve or lessening value a little bit but most of value is natural for the dog. Some dog dont having much value for other dogs and some dogs have big value for other dogs as natural instinct, so is depends alot on the dog genes is born with. Many of the high level sporting dog for the handler goal for winning world title are not socialised at all is true. The dog is raised on work training for the handler to being the world of the dog. Many of this dogs no one but the handler has ever touched or feeding the dog is how they are raised and most of this raising is in the dogs that win for raising a dog of high level ability. The dog is isolotated and neutralised to everythng but the handler and the game handler play with dog in the training and the dog value in training for nothing but the equipment for play like the bite sleeve and to fight the decoy who try to stop him having reward of the sleeve is how the raising is done. The neutral raising on the sporting dog which is also pet dog too is socialising for exposure to everything possible, but restricting interacting from people and other dogs. You dont wanting people to focus on your dog, you wanting people to walking around near the dog, brushing legs on your dog but ignoring your dog and your dog ignoring them. Is when people stop and focus on your dog and want to pat him or feed him or play with him, the neutral socialise is going wrong and the dog learning people have a value, same with with other dogs. Is why some people using training vest to stop people trying to interact with your dog in the training of neutral value. Joe

The collar high on the neck has less muscle to absorbing the correction and controlling dog with less force. Joe

Someone must be thinking is an advantage for the collar to be mentioned by the judge? They banned the flat collar in Schutzhund and have use the fursaver locked becuase people were sewing 2 flat collar together with the prongs in the middle with a bit of fluff around the neck you couldnt seeing illegal collar. Joe

What I found after raising and training many of the German Shepherd Dog all socialised in the neutral it depends on the dog how he behaving. I had some dogs were beautiful in the neutral dogs could run at them and bark, nothing, the dog completely ignor and keep going. I have had other dogs trained in the neutral the same way and they reactive to other dogs near their face and want to kill them? Some may say this happens becuase the dog had no socialise at the puppy, but my other boy didnt either but he not reactive so we having anomoly here yes? The reason why one of my dog reactive on the dog in his face, is becuase he is a sharper and more civil dog in his genes than my non reacting dog I know this myself but is not the socialise causing this its in the dog already in the genes. If I socialise my reactive dog from the puppy, I would see the reactivity earlier but still I would have to address training the reactivity out, is not automatic fixing becuase of the socialise or neither would the socialise have stopped a reactive episoding on this temperament of the dog. A lady once come to me she say Joe they kick me out from the dog club becuase my Shepherd Dog attack another dog and they tell me she says he wasnt socialised properly causing his reactions. She tells me Joe, I did the puppy schooling right up to the adolecsent schooling and is everything right in the socialise but suddenly my dog is not liking other dogs and he want to bite them? I look onto this lady dog and sure enough hes sharpness and civil drive surface and we have to retraining him to behave. Is nothing to do with the lady socialise, she did it right by the book of club, the reactivity is in the dogs genes is how the dog is and 13 months old this dog was when the drive to reacting surface. she probably didnt see it coming in the body language, but he was ok with the dogs and the next week he attacking one is what happens on this temperament in the dog. Many people blaming themselves for the reactive dog, they didnt socialise properly, they didnt doing this or that right, but often the reactivity is in the dog in his genes and doesnt matter what you done one day is surfacing and you have to retrain the dog to fix if it happening. Much of the good behavior and trainability in the dog comes from his genes is not all about how you socialise him and what you do right or wrong, some dogs are better than others for adapting to a pet environment with a better temperment than others in the genes. Joe

I understanding if say 10 people get togther in the park with their dogs with some good trainers to do the socialise and teaching both the dogs and handlers the skills in that inviroment and they do this once a week. Of course the skills is developed and in the meeting of those people and the dogs all taught the same way everthing working well and is good. But on the street meeting with the other dogs, these other dogs and the handlers dont have skills which changes the game from the socialisation and training in the park on the controlled invironemnt. So learning the skill to greet a nice dog doesnt help much when the nasty dog rush from the gate for greeting your dog with a big set of choppers to bite him. Same goes for the general dog park if reactive dog is on the loose, he line up your dog from 20 meters away to have a chomp so the social skill of your dog doesnt matter when that happens. So becuase the social skills dont helping much on the street becuse the rules changing with every dog encountered that doesnt have any social skill or handler control, whats the point of the skill for the general pet ownership? The skill only working amoungst the like minded people with the controlled dog and those people dont create the problems for us on the street walking? Joe

I agree, because in my mind socialising a dog is just giving it a new experience and assigning that experience a value. However, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make with their dogs is socialising them to have too high a value for other dogs. I see this in the majority of people who bring their dogs to the obedience club I instruct at. My preference is that my dogs have a low positive to neutral value of other dogs because I don't see the point in having a dog that has a high value for other dogs and I socialise them with that as a goal. Socialising the dog present a risk on the working folk for the value on other dogs is why most of high level sporting dogs are trained and kenneled to prevent the possibility and causing to train around the problem. It dedends on the dog, some have no problems with the socialise and maintaining focus on the handler, some dogs once they find value on another dog is very hard to brakeing the pleasure. Is true the way the socialising is done for the dog to have high value for other dogs like let them having a free for all in the dog park is what causing the high value is not foundation to train handler focus. Joe

What you telling us here in your environment sound very good I agree and is very good to teach the dog how to handle the inviroment you providing, but all it taking is one of these dogs learning here to be attacked on the street by nasty off leash dog and all training can fly out the window? If the dog has social nature in the genes and good nerve, the dog will be fine with minimal socialise. If you putting a dog in this procedure high in social aggression in the genes, he will not be leaving this school flying like a social butterfly, if he does from the training in this enviroment is possible, down the road in different envirnment where no body to him belong, his gene kick back to social aggression is what happens. I am not saying is not good concept, is very good concept, but what I saying is that putting every dog into the concept will not automatically produce excellent social dog in the result on all dogs unless the dog has the genes to supporting of this. Joe

Ahhhh, this is what happening, someone picking better collar in the rules and people whinging to the judge so the judge make is own rule to shut the whingers up. The judge should say on the whingers, piss off and read the book of rules, yes? Joe

People often forgetting that it depends on the dogs personality how he reacts with other dogs more than the socialisation. Many reactive dogs were caused by socialisation dislike of domimant dogs in their face can causing aggression to happen. If the same dog never experience dominant dogs in the face, he never become aggressive. Same for timid dog scared buy boisteros dog can cause timid dog to be aggressive. If unsocialised dog is aggressive on a other dogs is because of his genetics, not becuase he is not socialised. Is more chance of creating dog aggression from bad memory of socialisation than creating aggression from not socialising at all in my opinion. Joe

Any interaction with other dog can causing either positive or negative value neutral value is zero. In the socialise for neutral you expose to the sight of other dogs but no interation is how its done. Joe

Problem is in my seeing, there are too many personality in other dogs to the densitising of all because different dogs have different personality and behavior when greeting dogs. Your dog has to be desenitised to quite dog, happy dog, jumpy dog, timid dog, aggressive dog and dominant dog is a lot of work to achieving this so the dog is fine for people to ignoring the rules of off leash dogs to run around hwere is not allowed. Unless we are liking the dog park, for me to train my dog to handle untrained off leash dogs is not my problem to fix. Sometimes if the off leash dogs getting a bite from the leash dogs it maybe making the handler realising his dog should be leashed and not running around being nusance to others? The problem on the dog park, is even if your dog is desensitise to dogs and is good, you cant trusting what other dogs personality is like is always place for mishappening unless the dogs at the park are known in behavior and trusting that people not taking reactive or dominant dogs to the park for run? In the correction training, you must correcting for disobey the command the dog is knowing and the dog must know the correction comes from the handler for disobeying command. The reasoning why the negative association happens in correction training is they dont do the training properly so if you saying nothing and give the dog a yanking because he run off to see other dog, he can feeling negative from seeing a dog this is true. The negative association he must learn is the correction come from disobey is the biggest mistake I seeing in the corrrection training done wrong. I always teaching the stop command on my dogs so when he know the commanding stop and he start to run and ignor the stop command I give him a correction for disobey is how is wroking. Joe

but I love the expression "loose his banana" . Thanks JoeK. ETA: I'm not so sure about how confident I'd feel being in front of a protection dog knowing that the only thing between the dog's instinctual defence drive and my body being ripped was a "click" and a food treat. So I do think I see what you're saying, JoeK (I think) and tend to agree. But don't you think that protection training requires and has a different balance of drives than what we might generally see in a dog who is aggressing towards other dogs when out and about? I do think that the careful use of a click and treat goes a way to training a dog who is known to be aggro to other dogs, that aggression is not intrinsic to his/her survival and that there is a behavioural response that is more advantageous. I think this is a place to start. I think every case is different but I do think that 'pack' approval AND disapproval goes a long way to helping rehabilitation, at least once the dog knows a behaviour that is more favourable. Thank you Erny, some definitely loosing the banana I am understanding very much on the reactive dog becuase often in the working dog for protection training the dog is actually fear biter they callling sharpness and civil drive. I prefer not to train this type of dog becuase they are not ideal in their head space and difficult to control, but they make a good guarding dog is why people use them of this temperament, so this dogs before the training is very reactive on the leash naturally like some of the pet dogs who do this. We have to training this dog not only to behave and not react, we also have to training him to react when we need him to work and switch him on and off and control his banana so he loosing it an the right time for protecting against genuine threat. So we have to have perfection in the leash control on this type of dog and he must learning what no is meaning becuase he saying in his head, can I rect, can I react and looking for the handler to tell him when and when he cant do this. Joe

If the collar is "slip" it means is allowed to slip is not fixed so it has varying in the tightness on the dog and fitting only the dogs neck meaning you dont having the dog collard by the tail or around his belly, collar fitting on the dogs neck is where the collar must be fitting not on his front leg this means. A neck collar is not attaching to his head and the only time is questionable if the collar is pulled up too high at the ears and under his chin to pull his head around, If the collar remaining on the dogs neck providing is not a prong is comlying to the rule. Joe

I tell them to read the rules typical on the judge making up their own rules pffffff!. Is says a slip collar is acceptable if doesnt say which one the choice is free. Head restraining under the FCI rule means head collars like the Haltis so they needing to understand the rules they enforcing. Joe

Is very good question for considering. I have had many Shepherd Dogs who wont accepting strange dog in is face and jumping but a lot depending on the personality of the dog what he accepts. The dog I believing is like us and he derserve his right for other dogs not to interfere with him in his personal space, so as is handler, I try to stop interferring dog and shew him away, piss off is good wording for this I am finding? I am also not wanting to trigger reactivity or dominance in the dog from bad experience of the jumpy dog so is a battle for contending on the street walking with the unleashed dog running around is annoying. For the effort it takes to slowly desensitising dog to accept the jumpy in the face dog for me wasting valubale training time, so if the dogs personality is getting cranky with jumpy dog, I avoid those situation and try for it not happening. I dont liking to correct my dog either for minding his business and jumpy dog run at him is not his fault this is happening, so is fine line in managing the situation to projecting the right message to your dog. This bloody unleashed dog running making me very angry and the people allowing their dog to do this outside the dog park is responsible for many training problems for the people who abide on the ruling and manage their dogs responsible. I have hung up a Shepherd Dog a few times with little aggressive dog challenge him and I hang the Shepherd to stop him killing the little nasty dog, but is very bad situation for the dog and the handler and unfair on the dog for this to happen. Even with beautiful obedience trained on the dog, is reaction from attack from other dog is time when great dog can loose is head for some reason and different sensings on the dog kicking in. Even Schutzund 3 trained dog will out in the fighting perfect but if he defending on another dog, he dont listen to command like is head in different zone I dont knowing the answer to this? Joe

If that's the case, I'd not be calling them neutral. You can a train a dog to accepting jumpy dog in the face, but is difficult exercise but what for? Is up to us to stopping jumpy dog interfere with our dogs space. Neutral dog meaning he has no interest to interact with other dogs for self reward. Joe

Chille powder is good to sprinke on the poop or the Tabasco sauce, that stop them eating it Joe

There is one back drawing on the neutral dog I be honest. Is they not good approached by the jumpy dog and can be aggressive with other dog in their face. Is suiting me because I dont go to the dog park and if off lead dog run up I shew him off and if my dog bite him bad luck he should be on lead if it coming to that, but really depending on what you wanting for dog. If you want to train easy and have dog that dont go stupid for other dogs, neutral is best. If you wanting the dog park and play happy and freindly dog is best who learn how to react with other dogs. My wifes Labrador is neutral dog, hes never played with a dog after litter mates and no one has ever pat him and hes not caring about anyone. People and other dogs he react like nobody there. Hes socilaised as far as aware but not interacting and in the crowded place hes like a guide dog on the blind people just walking along no interest. If dog gets in his face and is tail come up in defence, I call here and he come to me on the frontal sit in focus and just leave the dog no worries. Neutral dog is good for me, but not for everyone I respecting that. Joe

Yes, this common practice for the sporting and working dogs raising a dog for a function because its making training have less obstical to working around. Is hard enough to train for function and when the dog is not focused and acting stupid because he sees another dog, is making training harder. So neutral dog is far better and less time wasting on stupid behavior and more time for the proper training. Joe Joe

I am not liking this puppy classes and my opinion is in the real world is achieving more problem than fixing. Is fun maybe for puppy owner with the cute pups around but what I see on the puppy class is exctracting of trait in the dominant pup to causing submission in the less dominant and causing foundation for fear reaction or conditioning dominant pup to act in social aggression towards other dogs as he growing up. Is also causing dogs to having value for other dogs is what makes training more difficult along the pathway for handler focus in the distraction of other dogs. In the neutral socialise, what happens is dog has no value for dogs or other people, so seeing a dog or other person on the walking, the dog doesnt care is not interested and the dog or persons is as exciting on the dog as a passive object. When the trained in neutralising, you can take him through crowd of people, expose him to plenty dogs, his focusing on the handler is the same as if he in the backyard with no one around, doesnt matter what is around, the dog primary for the handler and surroundings dont matter. Joe

I would get a male and dont worrying about the birds and the bees. I disagreeing that the male and female is best getting on, my experiences 2 males is better, they learn whos boss and they learn the respect. The male is good on the female, but the female is the one you cant trust on the male if she is dominant bitch she fight the male no worries and 2 female is worse. Is just my opinion but any day I having 2 male not hesitating for that. Joe