JoeK

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space. That's not what I am thinking of Corvus? My point is that I do know particluar dogs for some reason set off a more aggressive retaliation from a growling episode than others, have you not experienced that before? Sure, but my point is it shouldn't matter what kind of growl it was, because chasing the dog down and delivering multiple uninhibited bites is still a far cry from a 'normal' aggressive response. I can't believe there is so much discussion. Why does it matter why the staffy attacked or what it perceived? How could multiple uninhibited bites to a fleeing dog be considered anything other than wildly inappropriate and downright dangerous? There really are no excuses. I've seen a dog do something silly and threaten a dog that always takes threats seriously and deals with them very aggressively. Still, no one got hurt. It's not usual IME for dogs to get hurt no matter what kind of growl it was. Corvus, is surprising to me that you not wanting to learn about the aggression response for your behavior specialising, yes? Normal aggressive response depends on the drive the aggressive in, there is no normal across the floor boards for all drive that cause the aggression. The Husky react on bumping in either defense drive warning Bully to piss off or reacting in sharpness from startle is only two options here. The Bully dog attack from defence drive fearing what the Husky may do next or he attack in active dog aggression. I am doubting active dog aggression because they are pure aggressive always with other dogs and attack straight away with no provocate, so my opinion he attack in defence drive. In the defence drive can have also fighting drive and social aggression once the fighting begin and if the genetics on the dog has some social aggression in the trait is what causing the dog chomping up bad on the Husky. In the fight the drive can shift around, but it must be in the dog to come out. On the bottom line of the situation here, the Bully dog has wrong trait for the dog park and should not be going there because he is danger on the other dogs, this we agree yes?, what he did when the Husky growl is not abnormal aggression for a dog who carry those traits and hopefully now this Bully dog owner see what he done and keep him on a leash next time now see him do a mongrel on another dog hopefully yes. Joe

JoeK you need to get your facts right if you think that a dog who growls and tells off another dog who gets into its face is fear aggressive. The husky's reaction was perfectly normal. Bitches growl and tell off their puppies all the times. Most dogs don't see it as aggression. Most dogs would understand that the other dog is telling them off and walk away. Is perfectly normal behavior for dogs with weak nerve I agree on this point, but get a dog with strong nerve and playing bump they do nothing, they dont caring is not an issue for them to accept a bumping is what I am meaning on my posting. Plenty people here would have dog who can take a bump without growling and posturing, this is best type of dogs for the pet for my opinion. Telling off on the growl and posture is excuse for weak nerve, but if you thinking that is normal for good nerve dog is ok for me if you believing that no worries. Joe

Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not that he 'sorted out the problem' but that he sorted it out with what sounds like uninhibited bites. Erik's 'sorted out' a few problems himself, or tried to, and the dog he sorted out didn't have a mark on them. Both Erik and Kivi have been told off, and the moment they backed off the aggression ceased. They got 'sorted', too, and no one got hurt. So what? I hope they don't get taken to dog parks. In the dog fight, my point is the dog get into different zoning in the head and what I say is even perfect obedience on the dog to sporting standards in the training will not always making dog release or recall or anything the dog is trained for. I have seen this many times and people with good recall on the dog thinking if he get into a fight they call him back to break it up and the dog doesnt listen is what happens. Dont thinking because of good recall training the dog will come away from a dog fight on command becuase most dont is what I am saying. Some dogs will sort out the problem until confident the other dog is done. If this Bully dog was true dog aggressive, he would have done a nailing on the Husky straight up, not give him a bump, his propellor winding up to attack the Husky Dog from 50 metres away is true dog aggression with intention to causing injury. Joe

Why is a dog that growls in response to being collided with by a strange dog "fear aggressive"? Sounds like a perfectly normal reaction to me. Being collided with by a Stafford X wouldn't tickle. And since when does every growl result in a follow through.. its a warning, not a threat in most cases. Two thing cause the growling on the bump, weak nerve or dominance. Good nature on the dog can take a bump no worries like the kid step on dogs tail, poor nerve the dog react, good nerve the dog walk away or do nothing, dominance the dog warning growl. This Husky is not dominant otherwise he fight not lay on the ground in the squeal and in nervy dog on my opinion most likely. Many weak nerve dogs around for the pets and because they rect on the telling off supposed, people thinking this is normal behavior, but is not, get a dog with hard nerve and see what happens, they dont react at all and taking a lot of bump and tackle before slightest reacting. Joe

Chasing a dog down and delivering multiple presumably uninhibited bites is not what I call "defending". As aussielover suggested, the response of the staffy mix was over the top for a social animal. I don't think such dogs should be in dog parks because they pose a threat to the safety of other dogs. I think that anyone who has a dog that injures another dog no matter what the circumstances should offer to pay the vet bills or at least stick around to see if the other dog is okay. I can maybe understand the owners just wanted to get their dog out of the park as quickly as possible before something else happened. I certainly would if my dog did something like that. I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt. For all we know they have been trying to track down the husky's owners now that they have had a chance to collect their wits. Is fair to having your opinion Corvus I am respective for that, but maybe should not have fear aggressive dog in the park too that snarls and growls on the bump? The problem happens in the dog world, one growl and posture the other get in first and finish the job before the growling dog can attack the other. The Bully dog he don't know what the Husky going to do so he sort out the problem. I seeing a few beautiful Schutzhund 3 dogs have a fight at the training, perfect obedience and they wont out or do nothing in the dog fight not listen to the handler and they hang them up on the wheelbarra from back legs the buggers. Is very hard stopping dog fight even with the obedience dog when natural instincts kicking in for fighting other dog and they on the tunnel of vision. Joe

My wife having field bred Labrador is high drive dog. I take for 2 hour workout on Sunday, we run, do the jumps chasing the ball do some obedience and I getting home for rest in the chair and straight away when I sitting down, he want to play ball again and barking for me to throw the ball. Maybe I am too old to make high energy dog sleepy anymore? Joe

Experienced breeders have difficult time predicting how pups turning out on bloodlines they knowing well, cross breedings is impossible to predicting what trait will come to the table. I maybe take a cross breed pup if I like him a lot, but never would I pay money for cross breeding, they are worthless animal from money perspective for my opinion. Joe

Firstly leashed dog on the law will get the priority over unleashed dog for the responsibility so the dog park both running free for my opinion makes a difference and needing to be taking into account. The Husky start the aggression and Bully dog finish it. Bully dog owner could say the Husky threaten him with the growling and he defend himself is often what starting fights so the Bully owner should be exempt from the responsibility maybe if the Husky didnt growl and posture to the Bully dog, he having no reason to defend himself and fight not happening. Joe

I completely agree with you oakway on the 'expect the unexpected' - the thing I don't agree with you about was that going to a dog park is eventually going to lead to seeing dogs fight... as some of us have said on here - some of us have NEVER seen a dog fight that has been serious, as in leading to blood shed (not that other dog fights AREN'T serious). And I think everyone who goes to a dog park would be stupid to think that all dogs want to play nicely. Again, we are just saying from experience that dog fights aren't as common as people think. And I think people have every right to come on here and talk about a fight they've seen - plus, the OP was actually asking for advice on whether or not she should report the owners etc, not just to bitch about the dog fight. I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have already said "I" was not referring to the the OP. I said stop complaining, not stop reporting. Most of us are just plain sick and tired of these reports (I know I am) of what happens at Dog Parks. What we are saying is, that if you frequent Dog Parks these incidents MAY happen and be aware of it. What some of us are trying to tell people reading this out there that dog fights happen and they appear to be more frequent at Dog Parks. NOBODY said that they were the norm. This what Oakway saying is common sense is like saying I am not wearing seat belt becuase I never had accident in the car. Maybe you dont having accident in the car or see dog fights at the park, but doesnt mean is safe to drive with no seatbelt or go to the dog park and you needing to remember that accidents can happen and there is ways to minimize the risk with things you cant controlling. You cant control idiot drive through the red light and hit you and you cant control idiot taking nasty dog into the park, but you can control some aspects to prevent these happenings or reducing the effects if it happens. Driving with no seat belt is same as dogs with no leash for my opinion? Joe

Yes, I am agreeing on this point here and it doesnt matter whos at fault when you carry dog home in a box to plant him under the tree. No dog is garantee to being effective on control without a leash and my opinion is you go to the dog park at owners risk. When you doing the right thing walking to dog on leash and an off leash dog attack is different and having a law to use for the blaming, but off leash dog park for the prosecuting success pfffff best wishes I am saying. Joe Actually Joe K you will find that all dog parks have signs that tell you that to use the park your dog must not be dangerous and must be under effective voice control at all times. This makes anyone who goes into a park liable if their dog causes harm to another dog. If my dog was attacked and injured in a dog park I can absolutely guarantee you those people would be paying for my dogs vet fees and recovery. They would also be reported to council and their dog declared dangerous, I would make sure it happened to protect other people and their dogs. I have to agree with Corvus. In the 4 years I have been going to dog parks etc on a regular occasion I am yet to see a dog fight that has been more than noise. No serious injuries, no injuries at all actually. I think the other thing about being a responsible owner is being able to read body language your own dogs and other dogs and know when to move away from a potentially dangerous dog, I can and I do, I avoided several unstable dogs at the park on Saturday afternoon and Phi and I had a great time (until I lost my keys that is haha, but that's another story). We needing to be realistic on this point of blame regardless of what sign say when dogs are off the leash together. I mentioning before in another posting this happening with attack and what seemed a lovely lady she apologising, she offering to pay for the vet invoice and what she done is giving other lady of the injured dog false name and address and the bogus details and she disappear. So to begin with for prosecution, you needing to know properly who people are in the first place. Reporting on black dog that get into white car after attacking is good as useless on the reporting,yes? Is human nature for many people if thinking the trouble coming on to avoidance of it and not everyone is honest people. Joe

I disagree with this. I have seen plenty of dogs on lead who have been attacked. And done damage to the other dog but have not had any damage done to them. It has even happened to my own dog who was off lead in a sit stay and got jumped on by another dog. He grabbed the dog and released it resulting in some puncture wounds. I was able to grab him and put his lead on straight away, while the other dog took another 5 minutes to catch (and kept running back at my poor dog- I had to just keep kicking it away) because it thought it was all a game and the owner had no recall. I really cant see how it was my fault that the other dog got injured!! Since then I have had to be careful with him because dogs rushing up to him scares the shit out of him- so no PHYSICAL damage done but perhaps damage done to him none the less. I seeing once a Bully type dog rush a Belgian Malinois Bitch an the bitch she give this Bully dog what the calling here "bloody good hiding" and she biting chunk from the back of is neck. She was on the leash and the Bully come up for some trouble and try attack on her and she give him a nasty one and the Bully owner saying they must pay for the vet because she causing damage and the vet invoice for paying? But is not her fault the Belgian Bitch is just the Bully biting off more than hes chewing and he cop one? So because one getting injury doesnt mean other dogs fault not always. Joe

Yes, I am agreeing on this point here and it doesnt matter whos at fault when you carry dog home in a box to plant him under the tree. No dog is garantee to being effective on control without a leash and my opinion is you go to the dog park at owners risk. When you doing the right thing walking to dog on leash and an off leash dog attack is different and having a law to use for the blaming, but off leash dog park for the prosecuting success pfffff best wishes I am saying. Joe

Perhaps hearsay to those who don't have the experience of them. So, what, it's okay to just make up facts if you have experience in the matter? Are those with experience exempt from providing sound reasoning that holds up to critical scrutiny? That is exactly how hearsay comes about. If I had a dollar for every time someone said something that is erroneous about dogs that they had heard from someone more experienced with dogs than they are, then I could fund my own research. You don't need experience in something to recognise hearsay. You just need the ability to type something into Google and start nosing around. Results speak, Corvus. Whether you and your solid reliance on scientific proof like it or not, results speak. Results are not hearsay. And I said nothing about making up facts so I don't know why you brought that pearl into your post . There is an awful lot of hearsay in dog training, just saying I think it was a general comment, people with experience can and do say stuff that later proves to be incorrect. History is full of these examples, it happens in science too. Yes - it may well have been a general comment. But Corvus almost consistently discounts anything other than what can be written with scientific figures to back it. To deny experience and results and write it off as hearsay is IMO the wrong thing to do. I keep a picture in my head of the Corvus coming on the field with book trolly like the solicitor have in the city. Corvus, the dog running away hes done the bolt and Corvus looking up book for scientific reason why he run away? I am not having nasty picture just little bit of humor, Corvus having many talent for the theory is good work to appreciate, but sometimes I thiking the leash speaking louder than the book for training the dog. Joe

She loves to meet knew dogs because somebody let her getting high value for dogs is why they misbehaving. We talk before on the neutral socialise which is what I liking best and they thinking my head is full of wood with no brains becuase they saying dogs they need to play is good. Probalby is my head full of wood, but I dont getting splinters in my hand scratching my head of wood to work out to fixing bad behaving on the dogs who value other dogs too much? But never minding that, is problem here for the poster is needs fixing and apology for off my topic introduction please. Firstly on the checking chain, is not for using to correct becuase she lunging foward on the other dog, the checking chain to use properly is first when seeing the dog coming before she react is to commanding "sit". When she sit you say good girl just calmy and you watching her carefully as the dog approach. The moment her bum lift off the ground to lunge and she breaking the sit command you say NO and pull the leash back sharp before she reach the end is how a chain correction is done. At the same time, you turn around and walking briskly in the other direction away from the other dog. She needing to learn 2 thing here. 1 is when she break the sit command she cop a correction on the chain for disobedience and 2 becuase she did the disobedience, she blow her chance to greet the other dog so she stuff up the whole processing for what she wanting to do. You do this probably 3 or 4 times depending on the dog and when she sitting nice and the other dog passing buy without breaking on the sit command, then you give her the praise and the treat perhaps for good obedience. So that is the old schooling way on the checking chain and if my friend Aidan2 come on here, he tell us how we fixing on the new schooling with the clicker so there will be 2 ways on addressing problem on the training method from the old to new. Joe

Finally I have something to agree with you about! The problem is that many people - and I see this advertised on some rescues a bit - think the quiet, more shy dog is the best choice for a family and think they're more gentle. I have one happy, go-lucky dog and a shy, very nervous dog who was abused. People are always trying to pat and interact with the basket case! I think the level of paranoia is an issue these days, but also the temp of dogs today is an issue. When I was a kid, dogs that didn't have solid nerves went to heaven. Full stop. Even on this forum, when a DOLer was at a cross-roads about PTS a dog with aggression issues that she had tried to sort out for years(DA, but impacting her family life significantly) there were still people saying how bad it would be to PTS the dog. My sister has a chi that has bitten and attacked many people. She has sought help and the problem is still bad. Yet various family members and friends are horrified that she'd consider PTS, even though this dog bites while supervised and has bitten her toddler on the face! We also need to remember that not that long ago, we didn't have the interwebs so if a kid was mauled the town over, we might never hear of it. When my daughter is little girl, my wife she have retired service dog hes 9 year old Shepherd Dog beautiful temperament and the hard nerve. We talking attack trained dog playing with the little girl and hes temperament is so hard in the nerve he dont care about anything. My daughter she could ride in his back, pull is ears and his tail put her hand in his mouth, use him for pillow and the worse he done is lick her all over. Is my point here even dog with attack training biting and fighting many people in his job is not danger on the kid because of his solid nerve and is not scared of anything for need to defend. He know the little girl is no threat to him and he having high pain thresholding so this type of temperament on the dog making the greatest of the pet with kids. This dog Bozzi his name, my wife use him for therapy dog for old people home is the best temperament dog we had ever, but they not making as good as him much these days. Joe

Dogs to be good around the kids needing solid nerve is most important and is the weak nerve and resource guarding trait causing most danger for the kids. I having much more confidence with hard nerve German Shepherd Dog or Rottwieler playing with family kids than resource guarding Golden Retriever or any dog with weak nerve that can get snappy if you tread on his tail or touch him if he sleeping. Hard nerve dog with the family for my opinion is always best choice, maybe not good with strange kids, but with is own kids hard dog is usually beautiful. Joe

Of course is breeders calling which registration they using is not the problem, the problem for my opinion is the breeder giving people perception that rules of the ANKC is for pet dog goes on limited registration and perception unless for breeding and the showing main registration is not accepted. People have telled me this ruling they hear from the breeder which is a load of bull and is wrong for my opinion for the puppy buyer to believe this because is not the rule for registration is the rule on that breeders head only and they needing to be honest and tell the puppy buyer is how they do it, is not what is requiring by ANKC rulings so that people can making choice if they accept conditions of the sale or go to another breeder who telling less bull. Some breeders not even explain about the registration and the limited registration turning up from the postman and then finding out about the main and limited registration is different when is too late on the purchasing dealings to negotiation. Joe

Sorry OT.....but this really broke my heart. What hope Is there when the law protects criminals, even though this one paid with his life but he also destroyed another family In the process Mine too Sounds like they were the perfect dogs - and who in their right mind jumps off the fence into a yard with 3 dobermans?? I would not want to come up against that person because they would have had to of been a complete lunatic and probably on drugs. Bit OT, but, what is the law in these instances? I ask because recently we have had people sneaking around our house at night - they seem to watch for when we take the dog out, and then they try and steal our gas hot water thing (3 times in 4 months - police have been useless and we joke that we need a 2nd dog that we don't love that we just leave at home to guard, since they seem to be so scared of them). Anyway, point is sometimes we hear noises, the dog barks and we take the dog with us to investigate. It's always dark and they always disappear (it's true we don't live in a great environment but this seems to be your lot if you want to rent with a dog...) I'm not sure what he'd do if he saw someone, but if there was someone there, and the dog attacked them, would our dog be in trouble? A pet dog is allowed to attack somebody who come over the back fence or break into the house is no worries, but restricted breed dog or protection trained dog and the dogs working to hunt having to be licenced at the council as dangerous dogs and have the sign on the gate and proper enclosure. Is working out in the rules on some council if you have trained protection dog and is licenced as protection dog is difficult to use him to fight offender off and the circumstance is very small if he bite somebody you dont get holding the liability. Joe

Plenty of nice German Shepherd show dogs bit flat on the drive with good nerve making excellent choice for my opinion. I being careful on the Bull breeding for dog aggression, better with Shepherd Dog or black Labrador my wife has one of them is surprising to me has more deterrent for guarding than I expected, much more deterrent effecting than the yellow Labrador? Shepherd is better on the deterrent of course and no one ever knowing the training in protection Shepherd Dog may having. Joe

Most breeder does this to themselves anyway only one can win and the rest are loosers in the reality of things. There are plenty of breeder who exhibiting that never get better result than half way down the winner list and some hang on reputation of winning 20 year ago and done nothing since, so is hardly going to change perception if someone put a dog of theirs to the show and not score well when the breeder doesnt score well anyway. Joe

But this happening for breeders thinking they have the beez neez on their stock for me is concern too and trusting some breeders to maintain the proper trait in the breed is not happening. A lady I am knowing ask me Joe, whats you thinking on my Shepherd bitch for sire and no question the bitch needing working line dog on the mating to improve the drive of the bitch which is faulty. The lady tell the breeder she looking to mate with working line Shepherd Dog to bring back some drive the Shepherd Dog is should be having in the gene and the breeder throwing fit saying she not changing to main registration to breed on working lines? So the breeder concentrate on winning the show is ok, but the trait of the breed is flying out the window, the dogs have no drive, the dogs have no courage, the dogs have weak nerve is only thing about true Shepherd Dog is looking like one nothing else, my opnion is wrong, so when someone wanting to put the trait back into the breed to try and breed proper Shepherd Dog, the breeder blocking this on the limited registration is no good. Joe

So you are expecting a breeder to use their name and prefix to get you a litter? I think the majority of pet owners think their dogs are fabulous, and therefore are breed worthy, but loving your dog does not make it breed worthy. If you and your friends want a pup, maybe a repeat mating from the same parents is more likely to reproduce what you want. ETA: The breeder also has their own reputation to think about. If I let you breed a nice-ish dog from one of my litters, you sell a pup on mains to your mate, who breeds his ok-ish dog etc etc, before long there are some not so great examples of the breed walking around with your prefix in their pedigree. Just a thought. ;) Yes,this is happening too. The concern for the pup on the main registration is bull, the breeder thinking everyone is stupid? The limited registration doesnt fixing poor life for the pup and bad treatment day to day and breeding is not only way pup can be abused, so to say the breeder thinking of the pup for limited registration is bull otherwise is the people so untrusting to have the puppy and doing right thing for the pup, these people not good enough to own the pup in the first place. If the breeder cant trusting new owner with the main registration, they are not trustful enough to sell pup to them is my feeling? So is more about greed and ego they worried of bad pup in their lines and also worry about better pup knocking their lines of the poduim too, this happening badly on sporting dogs I seen before. My opinion for this is the pup comply on the breeding standards should be main registration. If the puppy is a dud, should be truthfull and tell new owners puppy is low on the quality and is limited registration, none of this is beatiful example on the limited registration and should be either beautiful on the main or dud on the limited in my opinion. Also my opinion if you cant trusting enough the new owner to having main registration is fair enough but what I asking if trust is problem, how you trusting the new owner will feed the dog is dinner or doesnt feeding the dog properly matter? Joe

Yes, is nice posting much better than I can explain thank you. Joe

So you're saying that a registered breeder should have no control over what happens with their dogs. Just let anyone breed from them or show a dog that is not a good representation. The dog may be healthy but not ideal for breeding or showing, You can call them control freaks but these people are trying to protect the quality of purebred dogs, to the benefit of pet owners and breeders/showies alike. When they sell the dog, is no longer their dog to make the decisions what happens. When you sell the house, you cant telling new owner what color the front door must be is same thing with the dog and if wanting control of something dont sell it is my thinking? There is good breeders and the ones not having much clue so having the kennel registration and putting two dogs together doesnt meaning they know whats best to call this shot always. I have seen few times in the working dogs very nice male who should be breeding but breeder wont change registration on the dog to main, so this power on the breeder doesnt helping the future of the breed either. Joe Maybe the breeder knows something you don't? Maybe the litter brothers all had an undescended testicle or the hip averages of the rest of litter were way too high ect. Yes that is possible, and I seen them do this to prevent others competing with their own dogs for stud fee which happens too is called greed and the ego? Joe

If the dog is on the main registration and has the bad hips and temperament fault, who in the reality is going to want this dog over their bitch, is not sensible anyone would doing this for a registered breeding, if they did their kennel name not lasting long for credibity so it doesnt matter if poor dog is on main registration becuase who wants it in the gene pooling or puppy from it anyway? This situation on my opinion is over inflated that main registration is meaning everyone breeding from them when they are not good quality. If I taking my stud dog to the Schutzhund field and offer him with bad hips floppy ears, no drive and two teeth for biting the sleeve, they tell me piss off Joe, you idiot we not wanting stud on your dog so it doesnt matter if he main registration becuase everyone know hes crook dog, yes. Joe