JoeK

You needing to ask why the morons choosing this type of dog? The moron wants ezy aggression not dogs that need training is why they choose this dogs. Plenty morons owning other breeds also for tough dogs, but the other breeds from the morons not getting on the media for biting as much as these Bull breedings, so there is patten happening see? Joe

What people not understanding is plenty of the irrisponsible dog owners with all differnt breeds of dog who leave open the gate, dont do the training or socialise, and dont do much on the dog but feeding him, is plenty of these people and all this dogs they have got teeth. I agree on the dog attack is the owners fault is true but you ask the question of yourself, why is most of the attacks from these irrisponsible people happen with the bull breeding when they owning every other breed as well. Being irrisponsible owner doesnt make dog attack, the attack is in the dog and the irrisponsible bring the attack to the victim faster. Joe

K9: No I am not ignoring this at all, and as you can clearly see it is just not my argument. Do you think prong collars should be banned? K9: Although I note your English has improved greatly in this post since the last one ;) maybe you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it. K9: sorry if I missed it but, who other than you is talking about protection dogs or agitation training? K9: Oh so your saying the that trainer that put the prong on the dog in MJs story put the prong collar on the wrong dog? I am pretty sure I said that, lots of times. K9: I didnt say that a prong collar wont raise aggression in some dogs, I said I am not having that reaction commonly, my clients are not having that reaction commonly, I put this down to the assessment I carry out on the dog and the method in which I use the collar and teach others to. So that said means the problem is not common to the tool if the tool is chosen based on the dogs temperament, the problem at hand and the skill of the handler. Air blocking collars are designed to take drive out of a dog, so they have their place of course, like every other tool, but if you air block a fearful dog, it too can redirect aggression as the dog panics, correct? K9: Read what I wrote, I didnt say it CANT happen. I can avoid this problem of occurring in most if not all situations by assessing the dog and choosing the right tool for the dog. When that is done correctly, you will not get aggression increase. If people choose to listen to what I say, its backed by the results they have seen. K9: Why would I do that Joe? I know the what the outcome would produce. K9: now your making shit up and I dont mean your user name! Where did I ever say such a thing? lol Hey whilst your reading this, there was a black shepherd that you linked us to a while ago, is that the sort of working dog that you wont use a prong collar on? Mr K9 is not about how you can handle dogs on the prong becuase you only one litte fish in the big pond and you cant be speaking for the experience of everybody who can buy and use the prong if is legal across the board. Because you dont be having trouble on the prong is good, so we all here give you a clap for the good work, but it goes further than your little pond in legalisation of the prong yes?.

Which brings me back to my original statement that they shouldn't come with a no harm done status. As should other pieces of equipment, like many others I'm not a fan of head collars for potential of misuse and harm to the dog but they are not the tool this thread is about. Dear MJ You are right no matter what Mr K9 saying the prong can start off handler aggression in the wrong dogs it happens often and I thank you on your posting for readers on the board to know this fact. Joe

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong. K9: well of course your welcome to your opinion. K9: well I guess that you use the collar much differently to me, I dont fight the dogs. K9: So Joe, you have been able to tell us here that if for instance I had a dog in front of me that has a good level of social aggression,I shouldn't use prong collar. So if I did and got bit, would it be my fault or the prongs fault? I also noted that you edited your post, I don't think the breeders you mentioned would be too happy if you were promoting the dogs they breed as handler aggressive... Mr K9, my point is you ignoring the view of MJ to suit your prong collar argument, what MJ says is true and can happen is what I say. There is big difference between prong and flat collar to raise aggression on agitataion training, prong and ecollar is good tool for taking the dog to the fight and can happen with pet dog if someone with little experience just slap a prong on the wrong dog. What you say argue with MJ says to the readers here the prong wont be lifting aggression the same can happen on a harness, I tell you now, if a dog go the handler on a harness he will go the handler harder on a prong which in my opinion is wrong tooling for handler aggression, is better on the Eds DD collar to taking the drive off the dog not ramping up with the prong yes? MJ say he/she know of dog when fitting the prong caused handler aggression, yes this can happen and I seen many times this too same on ecollars and plenty people could be having pet dog like this is what MJ saying and in your position MR K9 where everyone stand by your word, you needing to acknowleging what MJ say not saying as I reading from you it wont happen, it can. If you know what you talking about in protection training, you swap flat agitation collar for the prong next time to lifting aggression to generate fighting drive in a good dog and tell me I am wrong please? As I saying before, if the prong or ecollar shutting down the dog on the bite, you training the wrong dogs in protection, a good dog needing elevation in the fight otherwise he run away when you need him the most you see? Joe

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong. The dog is reacting on the handler because the handler try to fight the dog applying pain on the collar. Many working dogs wont be taking collar correction challenge lightly, you try a nice working Shepherd, a Malinois or Dutchie on the prong in fighting drive and see what is happening or try on a dominant dog with good level of social aggression you dont be using prong collars or ecollars on dogs like this unless you want getting bitten. The prong is good tool, but MJ giving good advice on the wrong dog it can be elevating aggression or causing handler aggression, many good working dogs wont be taking prong and ecollar corrections without a fight, you should know that Mr K9 is too late to blame handler error after the dog attacks the handler. Joe

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment. In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted". In the second I guess it should remain undocumented as you don't know the case history of the dog. I had a dog here on Thursday that when I gave him prolonged eye contact (5 seconds or up),he would attack you. He was wearing a harness, he displayed this behavior regardless of what tool he was wearing, and in spite of the tool. The trigger was eye contact, ban eyes? lol The examples you give are good support for people seeking help, not whether a prong collar can cause harm, as I pointed out the above was a handler / trainer error, the handler / trainer just used the prong collar to make the error. Mr K9, is very common for good trait in the protection dog to elevate aggression from pain, is what you want from a good dog get more nasty from the pain if someone fight him, if you training dogs that closing off in the prong collar for protection, you train the wrong dogs for the job. Is common for aggression elevating on the prong in some dogs is the reason we use often the prong for agitation work on the decoy, what MJ say is true, Many handler and trainer have been bit from the dog with prong and ecollar correction. Joe

On the linebreeding, the closer the linebreeding the more chance of locking in the traits good and bad. It doesnt mean close on the linebreeding causing more chance of bad traits, is more chance of any traits to come out so may be good or bad see?. 3-3 on the linebreed is good balance for making good puppys for traits of other dogs anything over 4th generation not much use and almost outcross. Joe

Thoroughly agree with you Joek.Other dogs should be of no consequence to your dog.He shouldnt be interested in dogs or people.He will accept them but not be distracted by them.We get quite a few people who are upset because we dont let our dogs "play"with each other in class or for that matter anywhere.Two puppies playing involves the same interactions as two dogs with one exerting their dominance.As puppies people think its fun ..when they are a bit older well ...... Yes, this is my belief, I remember writing on this before, thank you for finding my writing. The worse dogs I ever seeing on poor behavior with no owner control is the socialised dog who learn from the doggy free for all which is what some people thinking the socialisation is, like letting the dog go in the dog park and play. Some on this system with good owner is ok, but most is terrible on the behavior and most learn the dog is high value or low value for the submissive dog who can be scared and flee or become aggressive from bad experience with other dogs. My wife Labrador is only pet, but we raise him same as working Shepherd on the neutral and hes never played with other dog and has no value on them. I can walk him in the dog park through 20 dogs and he look to me and doesnt care and he work the same on focus if is just him and me on the field or the back yard with nobody around. The truth of the matter for my opinion is taking particular type of dog and handler for ability to have control over playing dogs and takes much work to do this and most cant be achieving this easily, so if you wanting good control on the dog and good behavior and the dog do as he told for good reliable companion, is much more easy to achieve on the neutral socialse dog. Same for the strangers, dog seeing value in strange people is no good either and much of the socialisation you seeing from the dog clubs and the puppy school is only teaching foundation for bad behavior on the adult dog and once the bad behavior is locked on the dog, is making good behavior harder to train and sometimes nearly impossible for average owner to fix the bad behavior when he has higher value for things than the owner give him. Joe

If they having insighting to complain on backyard breeder, why not they having insighting not to buy from these people in the first place and buy from proper breeder. Should be education on the people if you buying from people who breed with the flees, you catching flees is what happens and ruling on the court doesnt stop the backyard breeder, is saying is ok if you check them with the vet is not fixing much problem for my opinion?

People get misguided by the trainers who havnt achieve anything for hanging up their hat on so they sell themself on something like not being cruel on the dog becuase it sounding good for promotion becuase they dont having anything else to sell the service on. Good trainer dont needing the selling point when the achievement speaking for itself, yes? So instead of saying I am dog trainer for 20 year and winning 6 Schutzhund championship and having 4 agility title and training protection dog, they say I don't use the prong collar becuase I am nice trainer and dont training on cruel method. Doesnt matter if trainer is a donkey and could train properly a dog walking without a head collar. All that matter to selling service is humane aspect to telling how bad is trainers using the prong and the Ecollar and how they damaging the dog to keep way from the trainer using this aversive tools is how they sell themself otherwise, they never get a training job you see? This working both ways for my opinion, if a trainer knocking methods of others to making themself looking better on the public eye, is probably donkey trainer in my feelings misguiding people and best avoiding trainers like this if getting the dog trained properly is what we looking for. Joe

Greeting to everyone, This is on my opinion people should be understanding the head collar is very rare using him will be teaching the dog to walk properly. Is may be good tool for better walking when is on the dog, but my opinion is train him on the head collar, you always needing the head collar for nice walking, taking off the head collar the dog is no good you see?. You can train a dog to walking nicely on your side without a collar at all is possible too, so when people saying to me Joe, I thinking to use a head collar, I tell to them NO, is better ways of training good walking behavior. on the long term of the dog, yes! Joe

You have no experience like most people in this country Kateshep on the VA rating Kkl1 SchH3 show dog working ability becuase there is very few high line dogs here. They also dont working them here becuase they costing lot of money and very valuable animal to the breeding of the show dogs. In Germany you buying 5 Malinios for cost of high line show dog and as I say before is not as good as excellent working line dog but they are better than average working line dog is my point. Becuase dog is from working lines, doesnt meaning dog is any good what they do here on the backyard on the breeding bitch, she chase a ball, she bite a sleeve and she stranger aggressive from unstable nerve some thinking makes good dog for breeding and is good enough test of character and drive of ther dog. If chasing the ball, biting the sleeve and bark at strangers is better test than earning Kkl1 VA German rating, you welcome to your opnion. Joe

What you said doesn't make any sense at all. Can you provide some factual information to back up this statement ? Is old story Kateshep the showline dog is bad worker of course this true in Australia and the USA when generations of dogs produced without work testing and most breeder wouldnt having a clue which traits are needed to produce balanced working Shepherd Dog becuase they not working the dog properly to ever learn, yes. You taking now proper showline breeding where every dog in the ancestor is work tested bred on all V rated Kkl1 dogs is different animal becuase the downfalling you see in the Autsralia show dogs with no drive, weak nerve, no courage and poor health cant pass these tests with average ratio is 1 in 300 of show dogs bred without work testing ancestor is any good for working promise is what happens. Ivan Balabanov do this test on the WUSV world title in 2008 with showline dog Apache do Amper he come middle of field with this dog and scoring 88 87 80 with G rating is not bad for world level. Australian working dog Nordenstamm Chiller in 2007 do the WUSV world title score 84 80 75 with U rating finsih 82nd. So you taking average working line dog from Australian breeding that couldnt lick Chillers boots and work it against Kkl rating SchH3 showline dog, you will see how poor the average working line breeding is and what hes lacking by the comparison is my point here. Of course top showline dog is not better worker than top working line dog but my point is not to underestimating working ability of proper bred showline dog or underestimating temperament and drive balance in these dogs and comparing them with Australian show dogs is not valid on the comparison when the poor traits from substantial testing weeding out what Australia and the USA keep reproducing you see? VA rated German show dog dont get work title at the midnight trial, they have to do the job and pass TWICE! for Kkl1 rating. Not many Kkl1 rated SchH3 show dogs have been imported here and worked and most exports the Germans do are usually borderline dogs they not wanting for keeps. Many imports are SchH1 and not passed on the Kkl or failed the second testing so they sell them to export. So we not seeing this level of show dog in Australia for proper comparison of the working ability, we only seeing crap show dogs working here to say show dogs is no good is unfair rating. So what I saying here, for good opportunity to get proper SV breeding with correct drives and temperamnent balance in the German Shepherd dog, the add I show on my opinion has the best promise of getting nice pup with correct breed traits. The kennel selling these SV pups advertise they suited for anything, pet to protection which is what a proper bred Shepherd dog is supposed to being. They saying the dogs have beautiful temperament, they have to for passing the working tests, fear biters, weak nerved dogs with unbalaced drives cant pass these tests is true. Joe

Tell me more, have you seen these lines working in Qld, Joe? Any dogs in particular I should be looking out for? I think these are the parents of the litter noted above. So these are top German working lines or show lines? http://www.dogspot.in/puppies/volkersonkennels9-german-shepherd-dog-alsatian/ Yes the litter parents are both VA Kkl1 SchH3 from Germany is highest testing results on the Shepherd Dog and this testing stopping the incorrect traits on the dog from breeding and only the best dogs are good enough to pass on this level. This dogs are West German showline but will have beautiful drive and balance in the temperament and the good health, strength and conformation. Showline dog of this level is better worker than average working line dog. Joe

VOM VOLKERSON Contact : Janine Wallace Location : Auckland QLD Ph : +6421555858 This one up here has a proper SV litter is best you can get in the German Shepherd Dog. Both parents German import VA rating Kkl SchH3 beautiful pups bred by the book. This is the type of showline dogs you making half of the working line dogs bred here look stupid! Joe

None of this selling dogs on the contract and limited register is the breeders fault becuase the breeders will do what ever con jobs the public will accepting and only the public can be fixing this problem for my opinion. If the public saying no we not interested in the crooked dealing that only favor the breeder, the breeder then have to decide if they want to sell their pups or keep them? The co ownership is ok if the breeder playing the game is should be half ownership you buying half a dog and should be half price. Then the upkeeping on the dog on the cost should be paid half by the breeder. When the dog is bred, the owner pay half the costs for breeding and stud dog and get half the profit from puppy sales is fair on the co ownership and if not, breeder is doing a con job for their own benefit. Then buyer needing to decide if they get sucked into con job from the breeder or walking away to find breeder who is not ripping the people off and restricting rights to own pure breed dog with the pedigree paper. Would you buying a new car with the contract saying you cant driving car on the weekend becuase it reduce the pollution on the world, and you cant drive the car if is dirty becuase it take away beautiful look of the shiny car and is bad for the dealer image and you cant drive the car on the gravel road becuase it get dirty and maybe no place to clean it before someone see car dirty car and is says on the contract no dogs allowed in the car to help stop the puppy farming, so asking yourself, you buy this car on the contract? Of course not, so why buying pup on one same thing yes? Joe

That's right, and fall-out from correct application is also the handler's fault. Yes, now you're getting it! It's exactly like training with an e-collar, you take the vicious dog to the park, sic it onto another dog then zap the hell out of it. See, we're all experts on the interwebz. Falling off doesnt happening if correction is done properly or maybe dog is alredy fallen off by the scruff his mother give him on the puppy, the bitch doesnt give him a treat, she growl and mouth him with complusion for bad behavior, so what happens on the fall off here? If you using Ecollar, better making sure is not type of dog is ramping up the aggression on the stimulation and turn him into the serial killer.

My opinion for this is if the breeders is not trusting of the buyer to do the right thing with the breeding, hows the breeder trusting the buyer to feed the dog and look after it properly? If the buyer is not trustworthy, breeder shouldnt be selling to that buyer. Joe

The trouble with fallout - is that it suppresses the good behaviour. Ie it's what you didn't intend to train, by the dog associating the wrong behaviour with the correction. And given the potentially traumatic nature of correction - it maybe more difficult to fix the wrong association made using punishers, that it is to fix a wrong association made using rewards. If you're using adversives to stop a bad behaviour and that works - then it isn't "fallout". It's a semantics/word definition thing. Egs of fallout (ie what dog learns is not what owner intended): Scolding the dog for barking. Dog thinks owner is joining in and barks more. Scolding and hitting a dog for growling at another dog. Dog learns to stop growling, but will attack directly instead. Ie teaches the dog to attack with no warning. Scolding and rubbing a dogs nose in it for toiletting inside the house. Dog learns to hide when it goes to the toilet. So owner doesn't find it. And dog may just learn to hide from owner. Alpha rolling a dog. Dog learns to fear handler and may opt for the direct attack without warning especially if alpha rolled for growling. Scolding and jerking by the neck, a dog that barks at something unusual in the park. Dog learns to associate pain with the something unusual. And may attempt to attack the something in order chase it off to avoid the pain. Yes,this can happening when the handler is not knowing properly when to apply correction is same as smaking the dog when he come to you after bad behavior is not how is done, but the falling out from incorrect application is handlers fault not the method. Is like extinction method on the purely positive they doing at the dog park and what happens is you ignore the bad behavior and rewarding the good, so when the dog attacking other dogs in the park you ignore when he attack and reward him when he doesnt is good method that one yes? So I taking big nasty mongrel to the dog park for practice the extinction training and when he nail everyone elses dog and they yell to me to get the mongrel out from park, I tell them no, we do extinction training from the purely positive book and ignore the bad behavior to prevent the falling out then everyone should be accepting my training method yes? Joe

This is good example of fallout on reality the dog owners getting from the treat trainers scare everyone talking bull. Soft dog is good becuase on soft dog it only taking small punishment for consequence to happen for the chasing behavior, is hard dog that needing big correction and harsh punishment for consequencing so is stupid advice in the training to saying soft dog is no good for the punishment, soft dog works best on the punishment becuase you only needing soft correction for the soft dog, yes. Is ok for using redirect exercise to manage the chasing but without consequence will never fix the behavior on the reliable becuase redirecting never teaching the dog chasing is bad and when he think chasing is better than looking for treat, he shoot off and chase, so better he never off leash. Redirect can work on dog with little bit of chase in the gene, but big chase in the gene of the dog on high driving is not fixed without the consequence is not happening.

What is happening most of the time is people make the booking for trainer when the dog hes out of control which is good becuase the owner realise something needing to be done for the dog, so is good beginning. The problem with the purely positive training when the dog behavior out of control is often not the best method to get rid of bad behavior fast enough and the dog still practice the bad behavior which is no good for some dogs and not fixing him properly. So you needing best a trainer with full box of tools and knowledge of many training method not just couple of the tool and one method is not rocket science for understanding that the more tool and more knowledge of training method the better of course. So when you getting trainer for problem dog that only do one method then the method he do maybe not best method for fixing particular dog. Sometimes the fallout is good to suppressing bad behavior, doesnt matter if he fell out if the behavior is getting fixed like if dog is scared of correction and stop aggressive lunging is good result on the pet dog. Joe

Adelaide must be a very enlightened city Compulsion (with praise, which is rarely reinforcement without compulsion) was the status quo for a very long time, and it has taken a long time for that to change. When I started clicker training (which was a "method" at that time) it was a very small population of people who were willing to challenge that status quo, experiment, make mistakes and see if the zoo and marine mammal techniques could be applied to dogs and how far we could go with them. We had all previously been traditional trainers, I didn't know anyone that wasn't. It was not uncommon for clubs to insist on correction collars, and when clickers started to become popular many clubs banned them. Positive training was never simply to obtain higher obedience scores, I am confident that you have been mislead on that point. It was an application of the science that marine, military and exotic species trainers had been using successfully since the 1950s. One time was greatest obedience trainer is William Koehler and used to trial the Bull Terrier and who knock him off in big trial was lady called Winifred Strickland who trial German Shepherd Dog. I remebering this storys becuase we having the Shepherd dog and is happy for major winning on our breed. She train with the food motivation with the choker in combination and getting drive from the dog and she beating Koehler becuase her Shepherd has happy feet and Koehler dog he slink around and not enjoy the trial like the Shepherd Dog and they awarding her more points on the routine. Is long before the Dolphin training on the whistle was used for the dog. So this is where is started with the drive training against Koehler methods on the trial dogs. People probably doing other things but Koehler was the big name he training on the televsion dogs and he win everything in major obedience trial and was bigger than the Cesar Milan on his time. Winifred Strickland developing the drive training but obedience was still for her compulsion like Koehler for the consequence is nothing to do with the humane training is for spring in the dogs stepping. When the rewards training starting to taking off with no complusion, these dogs didnt win the trials most were no good at high level then which began the humane pushing for some trainers saying they having dog coming 3rd place with no corrections and complusion but it wasnt about better accurate on the obedience it was almost good accurate without the suffering on the dog from harsh treatments you see? They never say is better for obedience accurate with the motivational becuase they didnt win the big trials and was all about the method to save the dog is whats happening then. But we needing to be remebering that good sporting dog doesnt always meaning good obedience for the pet dog becuase sometimes a bad behavior on the sporting is good for sporting and bad for pet so agility trainer, Schutzhund trainer and pet dog trainer have different requirements on the dog to do the job so not all methods for training for different jobs will be same and not all dogs are the same. Joe

There is no theory without results. That's how theories are made, by repeatedly getting results that either support or do not support a hypothesis based on the theory. Yes, I understand what you are saying. Again, this is an example where the dog is getting reinforcement for doing something other than the behaviour that you cued. You must prevent, correct or train beyond that or the dog will just learn to chase cats. Choice is something we study a lot, it's very useful to understand how animals make choices. Choice comes down to reinforcer strength and reinforcement history. This applies to positive or negative reinforcement. A weak reinforcer (to use your example, food) can cause choice over a stronger reinforcer (to use your example, cat) if the reinforcement history is strong enough. By applying the correction you reinforce the recall, it's a strong reinforcer than the cat. Alternatively, you can build a better reinforcement history with the food. Or you can find a better positive reinforcer. Or you can reduce the value of the cat. Training in drive seeks to get the best of both worlds, strong reinforcer + strong reinforcement history. If there is a problem in training with +R that I see more than anything, it is poor reinforcement histories. To some extent, yes. I've found my high-drive GSD quite difficult to train not to chase wallabies though. My retriever was much easier, although, over time (he's nearly 11) he developed a reinforcement history for chasing wallabies too. His recall is still outstanding, but it is no longer "purely positive". I remembering you have nice DDR line Girl Aidan, she probably higher in defence drive than prey drive is how they breeding DDR for the border patrol and were usually more tendency for animal aggression chasing live prey and she would be rewarding for her chasing wallabie yes. What they used to do for the live prey chasing was tie out on long line and when the dog reaching the end on the line wasnt nice sighting but it stop the animal chasing from extreme aversive. Now we use Ecollar for this with shock on the dog instead of nearly rip is head off of the long line but that how the old school training teaching consequence on the dog. I am not liking this extreme aversive on the dog and the positve training has a point on the nasty stuff I see years ago, but correction is ok for the right behavior is long as we having bit of balance in the training and we understanding on the dog when to apply correction and when to use motivation and we dont going all one end of the methods for the wrong reasoning on my opinion., Is mainly older dog with bad habits needing corrections training from the pup properly is rarely needing to much correction if the pup has good drive. Joe

This fallout is sales talking for the positive trainers to give reason why their methods is better. Originally the motivational training getting popular because the dog has more spark in the trial and getting better points from the judge is how it starting then anti correctioning mob got hold of it and sell it for no corrections kind and gentle training. It had nothing to do with no corrections and kind and gentle to begin, its for scoring higher points in obedience routine on the trial. Joe