JoeK

I talk on the concept for email training comparing with the hands on is my thinking doesnt matter if is the Steve, Jimmy or Mary to me is not the point of who offer this is the concept of email training compare hands on, yes? Where the Steve come in the discussion is about his offering of email training is what the post is about on the topic we talk on I give opninion and what I say if somebody needs a trainer with option to do email training with Steve or hands on with another good trainer my advice for them would be take the good trainer hands on for best results before email training becuase is not about if Steve is good enough to give right advice, is about if the handler is good enough to tell the right story and show the right video for the Steve to know the full situation on the dog is what worry me on the email only training compared with training assessing the dog for real. Joe

Dearest Skye I have seen you postings on the dog and behavior you telling us is high drive is not. High drive is not going after other dogs is nonesense, your dog behavior for the email training is fear biter scared of other dogs is why she react. Stable dogs of high drive dont care about other dogs they not threat to them unless the other dog try to attack. Is what the Schutzhund BH test is for, if you cant tie the dog to the fence post and walk away without dog reacting on dogs walking past, the dog is faulty temperament in the mother country for the Shepherd Dog for Germany, reactive dog is struck off the stud book is useless animal, not high drive protection dog. Is only fools who cant train protection dog properly who be thinking reactive dog is good thing, stable temperament is what we needing in good dog for protection training, not a dog who want to bite everybody for no reason or chase after other dogs on aggression is wrong temperament for the good Shepherd Dog. If you having head strong Shepherd Dog, domiminat with trait of social aggression you only get with male dog 99.9% on the time and you correct hard on a prong is good chance he come back at the handler for fight becuase he see this correction like alpha roll is very danger advice on dogs like this for email training, the Steve knowing female show dog would be one in a million to have social aggression and is safe to recommend the prong and how to use on email training, but my point as I say on other posting the concept for email training for my opinion should not be priority more than hands on trainer for real is what I say, is compromise, may work, maybe not but is needed care for this type of training becuase many things can go wrong that trainer on the job would be seeing properly and avoiding. I hear many time a lady Kathy her name is best in WA for reactive dog, you ring her for advice first Skye, maybe she even better on the result training in person than the Steve email training is what I think of? Joe Joe

Now where have I heard this before... The point I make here is said a thousand time before on this board too is true that you cant assess a dog properly on the email chat, there would not be a competence trainer in the world who say you can, ok you can help on the chat sure, but the chat is compromise for on the job trainer and I explain why. Firstly the email trainer has to get right information from the handler, is impossible to get all the vital information from the handler becuase the handler doesnt knowing what is vital to tell and what is not or able to be determining for themselves the difference. I have experience people discribe a dog and show the video then buy the dog and get him home the dog is useless, nothing like what seen on video or describe, unless you see the dog yourself to assessing behavior and trait many errors can be occurring in the process from email chat. Is when you get it wrong causing the problem and email and the video has the biggest liklyhood for the error happening compared with trainer on the job for real. Is sad to be thinking the local trainers are that bad to be teaching loose leash walking which is basic training, pfffff, any trainer half decent should be able to do this otherwise should not call themselve dog trainer and for better success happening from email training for me this is joke of the indusrty, but what I say here for my opinion for dog training is not better to do email training than the real thing is compromise, not the ultimate choice for best results. If the Steve think is email training is better than trainer of his standard on the job for real hes pulling your leg, of course his email training is better than useless trainer on the job, but my point is on my opnion if asking what is best email training or training in person I say training in person is always best decisoin and email training is comnpromise. Joe

Hi GoldenGirl85 - the program is tailored to each dog's personality/behaviour and does require you to complete a questionnaire specifically designed to give Steve this feedback so the program I have for Skye would not neccessarily fit others. It is all about learning the triggers for your dog's behaviour and practising within their comfort zone before taking it "on the road". Skye was neither food nor toy driven in a reactive state so consequently I had a dog that I could not take in to a training class let alone walk past other dogs on the street without a reaction - she had no ears and her only purpose in life was to either play (as a puppy) or aggressively react to other dogs in the near vicinity. Skye is also not fear/aggressive so consequently it has all been about embracing the drive she has and finding her passion which is a tug toy. Due to the training I have done with Steve's guidance (we live in WA so all our communication is by email) Skye is now seeing me as more valuable than other dogs and she is coming along in leaps and bounds. I honestly cannot praise this program enough - Skye is my 5th GSD and my most challenging so even with the experience I have had with my previous dogs, I was at a loss as to how and make it work for Skye and me. Thankfully we have found the answers. Is very good you is having improvment, but you saying is better for the email training that hire trainer in person yes? Surely I thinking must be trainer in WA to help on this problem? Joe I don't see anywhere where Skye has said that it is better to hire an 'email trainer' then some one closer. I am certain she looked at her options before deciding that K9 Pro was the right choice for her. Although Steve does seem to have a lot of successful clients who have done his DLPs so he must be doing something right in his email communications ;) Of course the Steve having plenty of the email training clients, is nice little earning for him cutting out local trainer for the job. No trainer in the world having ability to properly work out behavior on the dog from email chatting but if it fixes the dog and Steve fall off his wallet is good. Joe

Hi GoldenGirl85 - the program is tailored to each dog's personality/behaviour and does require you to complete a questionnaire specifically designed to give Steve this feedback so the program I have for Skye would not neccessarily fit others. It is all about learning the triggers for your dog's behaviour and practising within their comfort zone before taking it "on the road". Skye was neither food nor toy driven in a reactive state so consequently I had a dog that I could not take in to a training class let alone walk past other dogs on the street without a reaction - she had no ears and her only purpose in life was to either play (as a puppy) or aggressively react to other dogs in the near vicinity. Skye is also not fear/aggressive so consequently it has all been about embracing the drive she has and finding her passion which is a tug toy. Due to the training I have done with Steve's guidance (we live in WA so all our communication is by email) Skye is now seeing me as more valuable than other dogs and she is coming along in leaps and bounds. I honestly cannot praise this program enough - Skye is my 5th GSD and my most challenging so even with the experience I have had with my previous dogs, I was at a loss as to how and make it work for Skye and me. Thankfully we have found the answers. Is very good you is having improvment, but you saying is better for the email training that hire trainer in person yes? Surely I thinking must be trainer in WA to help on this problem? Joe

If is rule on the club, the ruling should be in the constitute or the bylaw where minutes of the meeting show this rule was passed and the member should have the right to be shown the rule if not then cant be enforcing rule thats not a proper rule becuase making up the rule as they go along is not proper process for the clubs. If was me and they dont show the rule, I ignore them and keep training, what they going to do, call the police becuase you dont leave the field? Joe

What I thinking is very stupid for abuse on the dog for people buying the prong and the ecollar are buying this tools for abuse, and thinking banning this tools fixes the abuse problems on the dog becuase my experience I see on then abuse is not done with collars is done with sticks and things nothing to with dog training tools. Banning the prong doesnt stopping broken ribs from owner booting the dog with the foot instead? Someone comes to a club with a prong ok, the trainers should be teaching the person to use the prong properly not turn him away on the blind eye to stuff it up on his own without proper help. Is not responsible club to say piss off with you prong and claiming to being responsible club for the dogs best interests on my opinion. People intend on abusing dogs dont join obedience clubs and buy training tools they use lump of wood in the back yard and these clubs needing to encourage anyone who trying to train their dogs for the best of the dog and owner. Joe

If the Schutzhund clubs had the sense to help the sport growing, they would encourage owners of all the Schutzhund breeds offering wide range of activities to help people, but many dont unless you dedicated on the sport is why the clubs here having 10 members instead of 100. I speak to couple of people who the club tell there dog is no good for the sport to join obedience club is happening, is no wonder the Schutzhund is not growing here? Joe

No, I tell you the same as I telling mr Jeff is the Schutzhund club is not behavior clinic and is not automatic the place to go to use the prong becuase many the Schutzhund club will be wanting no prongs on the pup also same as the obedience club the poster talk about. Dont be thinking becuase is common to see prongs on the working dogs the Schutzhund clubs all use prongs, they dont is my point here. The poster say he has protection trained Malinois and do the KNPV already so why he at obedience club for the pets to argue the prong rules is making no sense to me? Joe

It is hard enough to find a good Schutzhund club, but by you're standard the clubs which Bernhard Flinks and Ivan Balbanov train at are no good. Mr Jeff again you talking rubbish why you do this? Ivan and the Bernard would be last people to recomending prong collar on the 6 month old pup and the last persons to be taking into the club for training the sport with reactive or fearful pup. The Schutzhund club is for training the sport, is not behavior clinic. People say in the posts here to go to the Schutzhund club to use the prong collar, what I say is wrong concept. The Schutzhund club may be allowing the prong but most clubs wont be encouraging of this without valid reason. Most of the clubs using fur saver on the locking, most of the clubs dont allow correction collars at all for training the sport so my point is, dont be thinking automatic the Schutzhund club is accepting on the prong becuase they may telling you to take off the prong also. Joe

I say this in respect please not take to this the wrong way, but Mr David I am hoping you not consider to train theis Mali girl in protection shes a fear biter in the making up sounds to me wrong dog yes?. This socialise and bad start in life is bull, yes you can improve behavior with the socialise and lesser the reactiveness from a scared dog, but if the dog is scared of things she dont know and react is poor temperament on the dog, good working dog dont care without good reasoning to react from past learning, good working pup should be not reacting or running away from new experience should be solid as a rock and if the react or run away they no good and need the neuter yes? You needing for good working dog not a dog who submitting on the aversion of the prong, you needing dog who elevating aggression from aversion and make him fight harder, you not using prong or ecollar for behavior you using it to agitate aggression then stop the prong action to switch the dog off, you wanting a dog for protection that fights when offender kick him in the head, not run away from pain yes? and using the prong or ecollar to get control and the obedience is good for dogs of poor character, not for control of potential protection dogs. No good Schutzhund club should be allowing the prong or ecollar for training cannot be using this tools Schutzhund trial and if the dog needing this tools for behavior, dog should be rejected for training is wrong temperament for the job. Joe

Temperament: Behaviour and character. Being good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, he is very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behaviour self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness. I post up here the Rottweiler so why we want him banned, sounds like beautiful breed to me? What needs to be doing for my opninion if they find Rottwieler thinking is a bad dog and not matched to the standard, they need to find out where the dog come from, who bred him if is mongrel breeding. If the back yard farming put out the mongrel Rottweiler, ban the farming of crap dogs, if is registered breeder putting out poor temperament and fear biters they be banned from breeding dogs. Unless these working dogs trained to fight, a good breeding on these dogs are not dangerous dogs is bloody nonesense on my opnion. Joe

Ok, what you do is little tug in the yard with the leash on the dog. Then take him out the front and try a little tug then walk down the street and try a little tug and keep trying little tug every 10 minutes as you walking along. If the dog wont tug, put it away and enjoy happy walk then the next day do the same thing. The dog will be learning the tug game away from the yard and in the end he should tug most of time. If you be pressuring him to tug or show him stress from you becuase he wont tug will make it worse and ,my opinion is little bit of tug and let him win it, let it go and let him have it then lots of praising when he win. Joe

Who saying your young girl has weak nerve, if the dog she train easy with good focus is doubtful she has weak nerve for the real? Many people cant indentify the nerve anyway and many times I have been seeing fear biters called tough dogs and real tough stable dogs called weak nerved, so it depends who make the diagnosing on the dogs nerve if they know what nerve is? Joe

Using drive (such as tug which everyone in sports tries to utilise) is a more complicated process than I originally thought it would be. I thought - cool, get a dog with good drive, start tugging when a puppy, and I should have a nice tugging dog! Right? Unfortunately for some people no. It turns out getting them to engage in tug (or other game) in all environments and distractions is not as easy as them simply having a lot of drive. A lot has to do with how you approach it, how you play the game with them, and how you can get them to do it in the face of other distractions including other rewards (either other rewards you carry such as food or other toys, and external or environmental rewards). This is where I am having problems. My dog has plenty of drive, and likes to tug in the comfortable environment of the yard. But outside the yard, he won't tug. He prefers other rewards I carry at that time, and sometimes (like at trials at the moment ) is also seeking out external environmental rewards rather than work with me. Kavik please, I copy above what you say, yes? You say getting them to engage in tug (or other game) in all environments and distractions is not as easy as them simply having a lot of drive. What you say is correct I am agreeing happens with dogs of weak nerve. Good nerve is not easy to find becuase unless the breeders work on the nerve structuring in their lines for the best, majority people dont get the good nerve in their dog. What my point is, train a dog with good proper nerve and see the difference. The dogs of good nerve makes no difference where they be training and they engaging in games the same in the backyard as in the main street of the town. You dont have to be changing training tecknics for different environmnet with the good nerve. What you say above Kavik I answer what you experience wont happen if the dog you training has good nerve. The reason the dog doesnt play the same in distraction and strange enviroments is becuase the dog is stressed, is not becuase you train the dog wrong when hes not stressed an works properly. Joe

Weak nerve on the dog not only display nervous behavior and is a trap some fall onto with the protection dog, he looking tough and confident to fight the world but is really fear biter with poor nerve who think he must fight for his life from experience he fears to reduce his own stress,see?. A weak nerve you see at the vet, the dog he put on the brakes at the door and the owner try to pull him in by the collar. The dog maybe good on the obedience commands beautiful but the dog in the vet doorway has no focus to the handler and is try to running away. Even if the dog has bad experience at the vet from the past, the hard nerve dog recover, maybe he cautions going in, but he will still respond to handler command where the weak nerve dog wont be is the difference. We can be saying the dog jam on the brakes at the door becuase he had bad experience from the vet last time is true, but the nerve of the dog is what make him either get over the past experience or freak out at the door in terror. When training for sport or work is same thing we say something easy like walking over strange surfacing. The nerve level for my opnion is best is dog that realise the surfacing is different and maybe stop to have a look, then you call come and he walk over, still has handler focus even when he unsure. The weak nerve dog will be loosing handler focus and has eyes only for the strange flooring so the dog become foggy in the head and wont listen to the handler. You can fix this dog on the strange surfacing with training yes, but this things like this on this dog will come up through the training again so you have all this little quirky thing to work through in the training. Ok, can you be making this dog work in the end result, probably you can but was very hard work comparing with a dog of good nerve that has no quirkys to deal with is the difference. Same as pet, do you want dog to slam the brakes on at the vet door and cause a scene and distress, or do you be wanting dog to walk in an obey commands like he does at home?. For me, good nerve is equal important on the pet as the working and sporting dog, yes? Joe Huski, too hard on nerve can make the dog sluggy and they dont be going into drive easy is the problem which can happen. We talking dog that going into drive well at home but not on strange environmnt. My experience on well focus dogs on the handler in distractions are always dogs of good nerve which come out later down the training track. Dogs that loose handler focus easy in distractions is never in my experience symptom of good nerve and in the puppy dog in early training the puppy who looses focus more easy than others is the ones you watching for maybe wrong dog for the job. Never have I seen washout on puppy with natural focus is how the best dogs start out. Joe

I don't think that Joe is suggesting that the OP get herself a new dog, but rather that some of the problems she is experiencing may be due to the dogs genetics and not her training. Nothing wrong with working around it, but you cannot create good nerve or high drive if it was never there to start with. Yes I thanking you Secretkei is what I am meaning. Many times people working a routine in the backyard very good and go on the club field and the dog is not working properly and they asking what I doing wrong in the training, yes?. What is doing wrong on the training is not compensation for weak nerve of the dog. If the training in the backyard was done on good nerve dog, he work the same on the club field no difference. The genetics on the dog makes big difference on the training result. Joe

Well, it's just so easy, isn't it, to blame a problem on 'weak nerve'? This attitude peeves me no end. There are a myriad of reasons why a dog might not tug in different environments. For starters, try making sure your dog is actually 100% comfortable in the environment in the first place, and that includes being 100% comfortable with you! Claiming that a failure to achieve this is the dog's fault for having weak nerve is an advertisement of ignorance and poor training methods. Of course you can achieve it with a dog that has 'weak nerve'. People are doing it all over the world. By all means, if you need a dog with 'strong nerves' then one that tugs in all environments with no work is an excellent bet. Surprise surprise, though, not every dog in the world is born bold and obsessed with a piece of rag held by a human, and there is a damn good reason for that. In some breeds, this is GOOD BREEDING STOCK. OMG, what am I saying?? Not every breed is exactly the same as a GSD, bred for the same purposes, with the same heritability of traits??? It's okay, Joe, I have some smelling salts handy! These working line-centric views have no place in this conversation, as has already been pointed out. Yet you persist with trying to apply them to every dog situation that comes up, regardless of the breed and without knowing much at all about the dog's learning history or their relationship with the handler. And you tell me that I need practical experience! Corvus please, you needing to understand what the nerve is in the first place, if you ever having a trained dog with good nerve, you would not be arguing this point. If a dog works in one environment and not the other, this happens becuase of insecurity in the dog and the nerve of the dog determining level of insecurity. Why you see a dog standing on the corner of the busy road tail tucked between his legs with terror on his face? What makes one dog do this and the next one stand there and doesnt care on the traffic? Nerve strength is the difference on the two behavior.The weak nerve is overwhelming from the all the traffic, the strong nerve dog he dont care about the traffic and keeps the same handler focus anywhere. What makes a dog fall off the A board and taking 3 weeks to get him back up for another go is weak nerve poor recovery. Hard nerve dog fall from the A board and get straight back on the horse, you understanding my point now? Is nothing to do with breed, every breed has example of good and poor nerve and good nerve on sporting dogs is half the job done. Joe

Ahhh yesss, thats what the breeders of the weak nerved Shepherd Dogs tell us, have a look at this dog on the Schutzhund video what can be achieving on the weak nerve beautiful. What they dont be telling us is the dog can only work one field and one decoy for good score so the dog is bred and the weak nerve passed on you see?. Then somebody gets a pup from this dog and say is nerve problem in the pup and the breeder saying no, you train him wrong and show the video again see?. What I answering on this post was question why my dog wont be tugging on different enviroments and I say is nerve problem on the dog is why. Some may think is good to learn training around the nerve problems that ok, my opnion is better for breeders to learn how to breed strong nerve then we dont have to worry about training around thoes problems and we get a better quality dogs for the future. Joe

Dunno, ness - perhaps we should just relegate our unsuitable dogs to the backyard And just because a dog won't tug doesn't mean they're "weak nerved". It's just that my Dalmatian would rather have been pi$$ing on a tree :D When the dog wont be tugging outside the backyard with loss on drive is weak nerve or low on prey drive. If you try on a dog with high prey and good nerve, makes no difference where you tugging, the focus and drive is the same. Dogs who have the drive and focus problem in the environment change is what causes police dog and guide dog etc to wash out and give away as pets. My point here is many people thinking is a training problem for the dog to change drives on the environment but is not training problem, is in the dog genetics is what I am saying, yes?. So to the people finding this happening on their dog is not time for beating yourself up and say I doing this wrong and make mistakes on the training, the problem is in the dog and the training needs different approach to work around it. Once you experiencing the training of the good nerve dog no matter what the dog is or what you train for, you never want weak nerve dog again, is huge difference. Joe

Thats how the nerve is lost in the breed, disguise weak nerve in the training then breed the dog and make some more weak nerve so before long the bloodline is no good is what happens on the Shepherd Dogs,the Rottweiler and Dobermann. If you wanting to waste valuable training time getting the wrong dogs over problems the good dogs dont be suffering with is ok if you are liking to do that, but getting the right dog from proven lines makes training much more fun is my opninion. Joe

This is common problem for dogs weak on the nerve not to be tugging in new invironment becuase they feeling uneasy not relaxed. Is not the training problem for doing things wrong, is the wrong dog for the job,yes!!. Dog has to have drive and nerve and when you get the right combination of this the dog will tug the same on the backyard as he does in the main street of town, makes no difference where he is. Joe

yes it is about consistency and sticking to the way you want to train. and yes 'tooling' is to help train, and that is why i needed to find the harness/whatever that allowed me to handle her in a way that i could teach her. not all dogs are easily trained with just a bit of rope. you need to find what works best for yourself and your dog. in this case it is a harness for myself and my dog. its no use if she is pulling so hard. also i dont want her to be in a heel position, i am aiming for loose lead, i dont care if she is right by my side or not. thankyou for your opinion but i was asking where there might be halti training - not why my dog is pulling. You are better off hiring a trainer who will use a prong collar, anybody training Shepherd Dogs on the halti is telling you to find somebody who nose what they are doing, just my opinion if you want good walking behavior on the dog there is better way than finding halti club to help you. Joe

On the bad training session, good trainer blame himself, bad trainer blame the dog ;) Joe

The reason the dog is pulling on the leash is not becuase he has wrong tooling on his neck, is becuase hes not being teached how to walk properly. Tooling is to help training procedure, is not for making the dog walk nice on the automatic. People thinking the dog pulls becuase they using the wrong tooling is bull, the dog pulls becuase hes not being teached to walking nicely, see!. Firstly you needing procedeure for the training how you going to teach the dog, then you choose the tooling, maybe piece of rope is good, tooling is 10% of the importance, 90% of the importance is in the training procedure, yes!. The idea for the dog walking is to enjoy being with the handler for the best fun so you play the game for changing direction as soon as the dog he loose focus on you, change direction and the tooling corrects the dog on the collar. When the dog follows the handler in the heel positioning, you praise the dog give him a treat maybe is good. The dog he learn this very qick is best to stay with the handler on the loose leash. You not needing special collar for this work, just something to restrain the dog and give him bit of a jerk thats it! Is no good buying different toolings to manage wrong behavior becuase the dog wont be learning, is all about teaching the dog a system how you want him to behaving on the walking. People thinking "ahhh" my dog is not behaving on the leash I needing new tooling, NO, you needing new training procedure is whats wrong on my opnion. Joe