BlackJaq

So it's not ok to raise zoo animals for meat because some zoos might not have enough space? They obviously had enough space for this animal. I know the zoo in Dubbo has tons of space out the back and they do keep some animals out there and off display. Why do animals intended for meat need to be kept out of exhibits? The zoo in Munich raises heaps of rabbits and guinea pigs and I can imagine where they go... Nobody ever seemed to have an issue with that so far but I guess they don't do it publically. Then again, I have been to plenty of zoos where carnivore feeding time is actually a huge, well advertised spectacle, lots of kids attend and love it. Is this more ok because it doesn't come in one piece or because the kids don't know the name of the meat? I fail to see the differences, really

Part of the reason I dislike zoos is actually the fact that many species are unable to express their natural behavior, such as hunting, forming natural packs and breeding. Obviously we cannot give live animals to zoo critters to entertain them for ethical reasons, however if you look at the life of a carnivore in captivity (or even an animal that would travel long distances each day in the wild) then it doesn't have much in common with how they were "meant" to live anymore. I see no problem in letting zoo animals raise offspring and slaughtering surplus unless we are going to stop raising other animals for meat in worse conditions than this. I actually find that option better than supporting things like indoor piggeries or broiler chickens raised indoors.

Here is some info on why many people are against specifically breeding white tigers: http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/the-truth-about-white-tigers/ And in my opinion, if zoos can do a more humane job at breeding food for their carnivores then I am all for that rather than patronizing the factory farming system that seems to currently supply a lot of beef etc. Why should they not raise surplus animals to feed other animals in their care if the surplus animals have a good life and a humane death? Again I have to ask if a giraffe's life is worth more than any of the meat animals we slaughter each day. Is it too exotic to be raised for meat while sheep and goats are too boring to worry about? I think all animals deserve equal respect and humane treatment.

I agree that turning an animal's death into a "spectator sport" is a slippery slope. Was the public actually present when the animal was killed or was only the dissection afterward open to the public? I think it is hardly a "sport" if the animal is killed cleanly and quickly. I saw no mention of somebody chasing the giraffe around an arena with a bunch of lassos or spears like some kind of tripping or bull fighting event.

I really can't see how it matters to the animal if it was killed and dissected in a tasteful manner or not. Animals are killed and dissected all the time and if it is done in front of a crowd then it is public. I think all possible use was made of this animal, and that includes a public dissection. As somebody else said, frogs and parts of other animals are routinely dissected in school, what's the difference? Simply the fact that this animal had a name and was on display in a zoo before it died? I think it is up to the owner of an animal whether they decide to breed it and what to do with the offspring, so long as everything is done humanely. I bet plenty of you guys aren't happy when people try to tell you what to do with your animals, including slaughtering them, docking their tails, etc I think the only reason there is an outcry is because somehow a giraffe is more exotic and perhaps "more important" than a cow or a pig in some people's minds.

Our dogs all like to have a private place to go, especially when we have visitors or when there is a lot of activity in the house for some reason. Some dogs can get quite distressed if they have no spot that they feel is "safe" and "their" spot. Nobody is allowed to interact with a dog at our house who is in his safe spot. If the dog wants to talk to you he will come to you (obviously Oh or I are allowed to approach a dog if necessary but we avoid this and prefer to call the dogs to us if we want them for any reason)

I am not a big fan of zoos either but the way this giraffe was killed and the way your average beef animal is killed is like... two totally different worlds. From what I gather this animal was killed at the zoo with minimal if any transportation. A beef animal will generally be rounded up/mustered into yards. This can take hours and often the animals are kept in the yards over night (usually with water but not always) and then are herded on a truck in the morning. Sometimes they go on a truck right away. They are then crammed into a stock trailer, usually they will never have been on any sort of vehicle before so the experience can be pretty scary. Some may have been transported before. Usually stock trailers are open and I often see them driving down the highway in the middle of the day in 30-40 degrees. Yes they get some wind through the cracks but have you driven down the highway in a convertible with the top down on a hot summer day before? Still pretty warm... There is no food or water on the trailer. Some need to be transported pretty long distances, sometimes even days. They are supposed to be unloaded and watered + fed every so often, not everybody does this but some people do. Then they go back on the truck and travel however long it takes to get to the abattoirs. Once again they are unloaded and kept in yards, usually with water. What happens next varies a lot, sometimes it will be their turn right away and so they are taken into the building an onto the kill floor, all totally new experiences for them. Most of the time workers are well trained, sometimes they are not. Most of the time the bolt gets off well and hits the right spot. Sometimes animals need to wait their turn or arrive after hours and will have to wait in the yards until it is their turn. There is usually a lot of manure and no feed in the yards. There is no way to completely contain the smells of killing hundreds, sometimes thousands of animals a day in one location, so the animals waiting would have a pretty good whiff of what is about to happen to them. I think a quick death at home in a familiar environment is a pretty different way to go than being transported to slaughter on a truck with a bunch of other animals. Sometimes animals go down on a truck. Sometimes their feet slip out of the slats on the side. Sometimes a braking maneuver means an animal is crushed on a trailer that is not quite full enough. I don't think it makes a difference to the animal who does or doesn't eat its meat after it dies.

I would probably look into an adult dog if your friend is after low energy and low destruction potential as an adult dog will have an already known size and temp and if it comes from a good source a lot of the training will have been taken care of already as well

Not talking to any "you" in particular here, just "you" as in people in general who object.

Well as long as the animal was killed quickly and humanely I think a pig is a sheep is a goat is a giraffe or a horse. It makes no difference to the animal whether there are 50 people standing around watching it being killed and cut up as long as it is used to that situation and comfortable. An animal in a zoo is being ogled all day long, surely you can only object to it being killed in public if you think having people watch it is inhumane in the first place.

Every farmer I have ever spoken to laments that city people are so far removed from the country that they think meat grows on trees and if they had to kill their own meat most would never be able to have meat again... And here somebody is trying to educate the public and show them what happens when an animal is killed and butchered for meat and suddenly it is in bad taste... Do you all feed your kids meat and tell them it grows on trees when they ask where it comes from? Why do children, or the public in general need to be sheltered from this? Perhaps there would be less cruelty and inhumane treatment involved in the animal processing process if the public had more access rights and were able to watch their meat killed and butchered and complain when they see unfair, inhumane or plain poor treatment of animals? I really don't get the problem but I see why there are so many issues with raising animals for food humanely when everybody would prefer things are done out of sight so they don't know what is going on. Why should zoo animals not be allowed to raise offspring that is then killed for meat? Cows, pigs, sheep, chickens are all raised for meat, many of them don't actually get to raise their own young and most (or nearly all) of them are not killed at home where they are comfortable, instead they spend hours or even days on trucks going to their final destination. Is there a genuine reason somebody can give why this is not ok but raising pigs for meat is? Or is everybody in this thread a vegan and uses no animals products at all?

I thought Miniature Bull Terrier, too, though perhaps they might be destructive as puppies. But then again, most dogs will be. Other than that, perhaps a Whippet?

I think it is a great idea to meet a few dogs of each breed you are interested in as the actual real life dog will usually be pretty different to the picture you may have in your head from reading about them. I also find that GRs are more gentle and relaxed and perhaps a tiny bit more likely to at least swerve rather than bowl over a young child. I have also found the ones I have met a bit more intelligent than the labs I have met so far. You really don't want to get 12 or 24 months into puppy's life only to realize that you would have liked a gentler dog, or a dog that sheds less, etc. It really pays to do your research and meet some dogs in real life before making such a huge commitment. Think how disappointed the kids might be after having a puppy for a while only to have to give it up again if it is a terrible fit for the family or too sick to keep going.

I think if you feel you would like to back out then you should do so with minimal fanfare. Yes it would be good for the breeder to know why but you don't sound like the confrontational type lol I think a simple call or email (depending on how you have communicated so far) saying you have changed your mind should work fine. I don't know what you agreed on re. the deposit (non refundable or what) so I cannot tell you what to do about but I would gladly loose $100 and find a reputable breeder than feel like I have to go through with it even though I didn't want to.

Similar issue with gallops in several rural NSW towns, I have seen the jockeys complain on fb but unless the stewards call it they have to ride or be in the shit. There needs to be an outsider in charge of calling it off once they hit a certain temperature.. I also wonder if you could call the RSPCA about this?

I see now we are talking a GR here. I imagine you could buy a health tested, well raised pup with papers for $900. There are plenty of poorly bred and raised pups out there and they are all cute. But do you really want to deal with the effects of their breeding and upbringing for the next 15 + years just because you felt bad for them? Would you not rather give your money to a responsible breeder and encourage them to keep raising great pups by supporting them instead of a shady breeder? Remember you will have to live with this dog and pay its vet bills, not the breeder.

Hi There, as everyone else has already mentioned, $900 for a BYB pup is a ridiculous amount. I can think of a few select breeds who would be much dearer than this with a reg breeder but there is a reason for this and I dare say skimping on the purchase price will quickly seem like a crap idea once vet bills due to lack of health screening start arriving on your door step. I can also tell you a bit about my experience with an under age pup: Oh took home his puppy at 4 weeks. This was several years ago now, the dog is 6 now. OH did not know better at the time. We still have the dog but he is kennelled separately, not allowed off leash with other dogs as he is socially inept and somewhat dangerous to them. He will play ok for a little while (most of the time) but when he feels a dog or pup has somehow transgressed on his rights he will give a correction that is way over the top and quite dangerous to the other dog. He is very difficult to introduce to other dogs. He is quite a strong dog (mixed mutt btw) and any resistance by other dogs basically causes him to steamroll that dog. OH refused to neuter but I doubt his behavior would be much different minus nads. He can be unpredictable inside the house and I do not feel safe with him loose in the house so he sleeps outside in his kennel. He weighs half as much as me so I refuse to handle him outside a fenced in area as I cannot hold him if he really wants to go. He is well trained but he has moments where you cannot rely on his training to stop the shit from hitting the fan. We don't have neighbors and we are extremely careful with this dog as we feel he could be dangerous to others. He is never off leash away from home and he only ever travels to the vet or to OHs work (which is fenced). His life is very restricted due to being unable to go off leash in town or playing with other dogs and he is a pain in the butt to manage because he cannot be loose with the other dogs without having somebody right there making sure he is taken away before he gets too excited. I cannot tell you how much of this is bad breeding and how much is bad raising but the dog has been with OH ever since we started dating and I made sure he was trained, saw a vet and was looked after. He has never been abused. I would never take an under age pup again after this experience and this dog will never be rehomed. PTS is his only option if we could not keep him for any reason.

I am still missing a dog who was chipped and disappeared from the pound several years ago. Every so often I still wonder about him, I would love him to turn up again one day but I doubt he will :/

Hi guys, I have received the fax a couple of days ago but have been a bit busy with work. So the result sheet is VERY self explanatory, listing exactly what each number means.... Not sure if the vet nurse just didn't read it all or what... The test was sent to Idexx Laboratories but performed by Colorado State University in the USA..... Distemper levels are 1:128. It says "Titres of 1:32 and higher indicate probable protective immunity; higher levels indicate better protection" so she is plenty covered for distemper. Parvo levels are 1:4096. It says "Titres of 1:64 and higher indicate probable protective immunity; higher levels indicate better protection" so parvo is plenty covered as well. Not sure how you get "not covered at all" from that................ I will certainly not be re-vaccinating next year. The other dogs just got their shots this time because I couldn't afford to shell out $250 for each of them but if I can get them done for $60 a piece then obviously I will. My only concern is for Bear because we only got him at 12 months and this is when he had his first ever vaccination. I would definitely like to get him tested next year to make sure he is covered as he had no puppy shots at all with previous owner...

So perhaps instead of addressing the politicians we should address the public with TV ads that show in a simple and concise manner why these recommendations are better than what the government proposes? I'm thinking something along the lines of a view through the eyes of a dog, running through common scenarios with a go pro attached under the dog's chin or similar to make it hard to tell what breed the dog is. Perhaps it could then be explained in idiot proof terms what approach would be successful in preventing this situation and how the owner is being irresponsible and should be targeted. Perhaps we could have a friendly dog rush people in an excited manner, who then react fearfully. Bogan owner could be in the background yelling that "he is friendly and just wants to play". Perhaps we can emphasize that the owner is at fault, not the dog, by explaining some training and a simple leash could have prevented this incident and that existing leash laws simply need to be enforced to deal with these kind of incidents. I duno, something along these lines. I think the message needs to be on the same level as the current media campaigns, simple and easy to understand, preferably with lots of pictures. As soon as people have to think about it the message is lost because most people either don't want to or are simply unable to think it through.... I'm sure people can probably come up with a better story line for the ad, too, I am just offering a general outline of what my thoughts are here...

Do you think it would help if plenty of people forward the Team Dog alternative to the relevant people in power? Perhaps if they were sent it enough they would actually read it and give it some thought?

Yes I agree LMS. A lot of the anti BSL crowd use very poor arguments which discredit the whole thing I think. Slogans like "it's all in how you raise them" and similar just are not 100% true and it numbs people to the valid and true arguments. By this point though I find it hard to deny that BSL drives the affected breeds under ground and the quality of their breeding goes right down the sewer once the responsible, registered breeders are out of the picture. Some people will not be convinced that it is their problem until they are attacked by a dog like the one in the Ayen Chol case, who had most likely been kept chained in a garage, presumably on concrete since no bedding was found,and who had never been socialized or walked or cared for in any manner that a pet is generally cared for. Perhaps we also need to start demanding that councils go ahead and enforce reasonable laws that are already in existence now, like leash and containment laws. Perhaps they will realize how much manpower and money it takes to actually police these laws and they will be less keen to have more laws heaped on them. ETA: Thank You mel, that is very interesting!

So is there a place where you can access accurate dog related statistics? I find it incredibly difficult to find reliable information to share with people who would like to learn more.

Yes I think you are right. It would be hard for anybody to argue with this on any basis other than emotion (i.e. fear of certain dogs).

No, no new breeds have been mentioned yet but there has been some speculation in this thread, based on bite stats, current popular breed labeling in the press etc.... No way to know for sure until they come out with a list... As for what can be done, perhaps some targeted media campaigns to educate Joe Public would be the best way to tackle public opinion, since most of the information the Average Joe has comes from the media in the first place. I am not sure if the legislators are being a victim of misinformation due to the media or if they simply respond to the hysteria they are being faced with by the public based on what the media tells them... Either way, until people know why it affects them (and many of the points raised here previously have been excellent and easy to understand for most dog owners who are not intimate with the ins and outs of the issue) they will probably not act, other than to scream loudly for "something" to be done each time there is an incident.