Braithwaites

Gretymate isnt a breeder. What on earth are you on about? More insulting crap from you. You might want to read the forum rules before you continue Are you serious?!?

Did you not read all my posts in this thread? Or do you just choose to ignore what I have said, dismiss it as rubbish, and keep harping on about how you feel? This isn't an opinion, it is science. Bones need a certain amount of stress while they are growing to develop to their full strength and potential. If that irritates you, that is your own problem, and not the fault of dog breeders. I've also read research from the U.S about growth plates maturation. not taking varying breeds into account, but only the one's I own, you shouldn't work a kelpie or a border hard in the first 18 months of their life. Recommended are collared walks in parks and on beaches. You know, the kind of things you can offer from an apartment. So my argument is only strengthened by your need to 'harp on'. well done, and thank you To protect a pup's growth plates, the recommendation is that pups should get free exercise rather than being walked on lead. This is exactly why large breed pups should be raised in homes with yards, and not be raised in apartments. The dogs need to exercise and rest at their own natural intervals, and not be put in a sitauition where there joints get pounded by the repetitive nature of lead walking on a lead alongside a person. Good on you for reading some research from the US, too bad you don't really understand what you have read. Lead walking a giant breed pup instead of letting it free run for exercise is a sure way of it developing arthritis as an adult. Do you have any studies on this? I would be interested to have a read I'm looking online right now. It was an online journal/ pdf. When I find it, I'll post it.

Exhibit A. The exact attitude that sucks from breeders. More holier than thou rubbish. Go back and read my original post. It was working dog specific advice! I wouldn't bother reading any advice for large breed dogs because they interest me little and I'd never own one. The research was completed in march of last year at the uni of wisconsin (or washington?) ... And it suggested that previous advice on working breeds is now outdated and should be replaced with: collared walking is to replace letting dogs run their own race. working breeds will overdo it and must be held back for longevity. About 10 years ago in the U.S they banned agility for working dogs under 18 months for this reason, and in Australia they still in places allow any dog of any age to run. You know what, I'd be really surprised if I responded to another post you type. I know all I need to about you

Not in this house! I don't know where people get these couch potato Staffords from. Both mine have been very high energy and always on the go. Maybe try owning one at a time? Urmmm...Clyde owns one Two staffy's are guaranteed to be wheels off. So's a staffy that hasn't been fixed until its about 3 years old.

Not in this house! I don't know where people get these couch potato Staffords from. Both mine have been very high energy and always on the go. Maybe try owning one at a time?

Maybe your experience with rottweilers is normal for that breed? I wouldn't have a rottweiler around my kids or desire to own one, so I guess in this example I have the closed mind. I volunteered at the coomabah shelter from 2006-2008 while doing my degree. Being an rspca shelter and the gold coast dog pound all breeds were accepted. Given the gold coast has one of the largest apartment per population numbers in australia, the apartment dogs there certainly weren't exceptional. You have a great day too.

That's interesting considering working farm dogs need to prove their worth tand to be able to work all day by 18 months to two years or quite often they are removed from the working dog life. If they were not sound enough to be worked they would have been long gone by 18 months. I know. Imagine if breeders stopped selling kelpies or borders to working farmers? Maybe they should if the dog's welfare is taken into account. Growth plates aren't set until 18 months old, running them hard before this is shaving years off their life without the complication of dyslplasia & arthritis. I will never tire of hearing breeders say this. Sometimes it may not be the most conventional solution, which is the greatest one.

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders. I would wager anyone prepared to pay twice the amount for their dog, go on a waiting list for sometimes 3 years for the dog they want, sometimes need ... I am willing to go on record to say they won't go through all of that to neglect their dogs or be bad owners. I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh? Braithwaits, please do yourself a favour... go visit the RSPCA or breed rescue near your home and ask them questions as to where this dog is from and the circumstances of why it is here. Then come back here and tell us you are prepared to go on record with that statement. I have worked with both on a volunteer basis and that's probably why I have such a strong opinion on this matter which perhaps should be titled "suitable forever puppy homes" for whichever breed in question. I worked with the animal shelter on the gold coast during my uni degree as the photographer. So I'm not ignorant to the matter. Are you suggesting most dogs in a pound/ shelter have come from people who bought from breeders? I could count the pedigree dogs I saw at the shelter on one hand and not use any fingers. ZERO! I'm really not sure as to what your point is. Most of the dogs at the shelter were because of aggressiveness toward children, or damaging/ annoying behaviour (due to the dog being bored breathless). I'm not even sure how many dogs were there because of living in apartments, but it definitely wasn't a reoccurring issue that left everyone butting their head against a wall.

That's a whole other thread right there. I would not know where to begin with educating people/ potential dog owners and creating awareness about breeders. Like I said earlier ... In some of the dog circles I've found myself in, there are people who are turned off breeders because they have been offended by attitudes in the past. And I know these same people would and do make some of the best dog owners I've ever had conversations with. It seems a shame they will only ever buy from BYB's (really good, honest well intentioned BYB's, but still) because that's where their best experiences lie.

Yes but, Braithwaites. (I sound like the girl from Little Britain! ). My point also was that a patient or a puppy-buyer may not agree with the judgement call of a breeder who says 'No'. That doesn't make that call either right or wrong. Just a call the breeder has to make. And some breeders may have assessed that their preference is strong for 'No' to apartment life, for their particular breed. There may be squirreled away out there, another breeder who has a policy 'Yes, if a lot of criteria is ticked.' So checking with other breeders is perfectly OK. Medical doctors will also be the same. One may make a call for a strong preference for one form of treatment (to avoid risk). Another may have a preference to look at emerging treatments (with not such a long track record). Like so much in life, we just have to juggle often conflicting information & choices. That's why I originally posted I have no criticism for breeders who elect to go either way. A routine 'no', or a 'yes, if criteria ticked.' Even the Metro Dogs author, who supports dogs in apartments, points out that it takes a lot of thought to make it work for individual dogs, owners & community. We are in agreement here over the same fundamental argument. Blanket answers will in some cases - and I agree its the minority - deny really eligible people from owning their dream dog from their dream breeder. Dog experts all over the world would back my reasoning that apartment dogs, in the right circumstances, will thrive and live a happy life to a grand old age and be denied very little in regards to a dog living on a ranch.

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders. I would wager anyone prepared to pay twice the amount for their dog, go on a waiting list for sometimes 3 years for the dog they want, sometimes need ... I am willing to go on record to say they won't go through all of that to neglect their dogs or be bad owners. I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh?

who said they were the original poster in the thread in the breeders forum, made an informed choice, for what was best for their pup, end of story Agreed. That particular instance was the probably the right call. The discussion then turned into some breeders offering blanket no's to anyone with small yards/ apartments. Hence the debate, or you wouldn't be here

I agree. It's not discrimination for a breeder to say 'no'. It's actually the same for when they say 'yes'. It's a judgement call. Every time a person goes to their doctor, that doctor has to make a judgement call about diagnosis & treatment. Even human medicine isn't an exact science. That's why it's perfectly acceptable for people to go get 2nd or 3rd opinions from other doctors. A judgement call is based on someone's knowledge & experience in looking at all the factors involved & giving a preference. Many times that preference will be strong. If it's good enough for doctors to make judgement calls (& they have to), it's good enough for dog breeders (who also have to). And it's also good enough for dog buyers to go seek other opinions from other dog breeders. If they can deal with the personality issue of feeling 'rejected' (& all of us can feel that way). Seems to me (& it's only an opinion) that's the elephant in the room. Feelings of being humiliated because someone said 'No', Turned-away owners feeling they were being told, 'YOU are not suitable.' Instead of, 'The CIRCUMSTANCES you offer, are not suitable, in my judgement call.' I wholeheartedly agree with you. Because a judgment call is not a blanket no. A judgment call necessitates that you have all the information at your finger tips and you make an educated decision based on a per case scenario. Will there be homes unsuitable for various reasons? Sure there will. Should you sell your pup to them? HELL NO. But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

you ain't seen a greyhound in action then lol. actually I have. That is why i said in an earlier post that Greyhounds would be a breed that is a definite exception to my argument. Remember? And you replied it's only the adolescent grey's that need this. yes but adult greys make excellent apartment dwellers, I would have no issuses letting an adult go to an apartment dweller who ticked all the boxes, one of which would be to provide a safe area for off lead (legal, no dog parks) exercise a couple of times a week. Otherwise they may find a racetrack in their apartment. This is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. You have your pup's welfare at heart, but you're not giving people blanket options. You have a legit reason for wanting to not give your pups a home with little or no yard, but should that pup mature, you wouldn't discriminate on selling a dog to person with a "less than ideal yard - in some breeder's mind". This is the kind of thing we need more of.

Did you not read all my posts in this thread? Or do you just choose to ignore what I have said, dismiss it as rubbish, and keep harping on about how you feel? This isn't an opinion, it is science. Bones need a certain amount of stress while they are growing to develop to their full strength and potential. If that irritates you, that is your own problem, and not the fault of dog breeders. I've also read research from the U.S about growth plates maturation. not taking varying breeds into account, but only the one's I own, you shouldn't work a kelpie or a border hard in the first 18 months of their life. Recommended are collared walks in parks and on beaches. You know, the kind of things you can offer from an apartment. So my argument is only strengthened by your need to 'harp on'. well done, and thank you you are becoming very rude to forum members...you are starting to look foolish I get it. Someone can say I'm harping on, but heaven forbid the new guy return serve. Way to fly the flag for forum board cliques. I find it interesting how you're the only poster going off topic. Keep it on topic or go on ignore. I guess.

That wasn't an insult. By the time I reply to people in this thread raz is the only person who has found time to respond 2 or 3 times. And judging by her responses she's not reading my replies. At least others here are taking the time and care I am taking to give this topic the thought it probably deserves. I don't have a problem finding somewhere else to type my thoughts. ;)

Did you not read all my posts in this thread? Or do you just choose to ignore what I have said, dismiss it as rubbish, and keep harping on about how you feel? This isn't an opinion, it is science. Bones need a certain amount of stress while they are growing to develop to their full strength and potential. If that irritates you, that is your own problem, and not the fault of dog breeders. I've also read research from the U.S about growth plates maturation. not taking varying breeds into account, but only the one's I own, you shouldn't work a kelpie or a border hard in the first 18 months of their life. Recommended are collared walks in parks and on beaches. You know, the kind of things you can offer from an apartment. So my argument is only strengthened by your need to 'harp on'. well done, and thank you

you ain't seen a greyhound in action then lol. actually I have. That is why i said in an earlier post that Greyhounds would be a breed that is a definite exception to my argument. Remember? And you replied it's only the adolescent grey's that need this.

Ofcourse I care that breeders care who they sell to. Why wouldnt I? Poor breeders get bashed regardless of what they do. Make sure a home is suitable - get bashed. Sell to any Tom Dick or Harry - get bashed. They cant win, can they. Thanks for confirming why I'll never become a breeder. You might need some air. You have an opinion about everything and anything, as your 37 000 posts seem to attest to. No one, especially not me is saying breeders need to abandon their want to find good homes for their pups. Having a small yard does not equate to being a bad dog owner, and placing your much loved, well bred dog into a bad circumstance. The logic is flawed, I've stated why. You seem too quick to type and reply and less vigilant to read & think about what I'm saying. Have a good xmas, and put the keyboard down for a day. ;)

Crazy. Based on yard size? Breeders know no more about me and my ability to raise a dog than what my butcher does. but they know their dogs and their breed and i have no problem with them saying no to the dog living in an apartment. i just think it can be done with committed owners.....and they don't know the puppy buyers in the end is up to the breeder and i am with raz i would never buy from a BYB or a puppy farm or a pet shop. i really would have another think if the breed was for me, especially if more than one breeder was telling me the puppy/dog wouldn't be suitable for my current situation I've read in this thread alone that one breeder would say no, while another would say yes to the exact same circumstance and reaping a really positive, bright outcome. It shows open minded breeders exist. There needs to be more of it.

Interesting generalisation. I live on a 3/4 acre block in a coastal/ rural nsw town. Proceed with your blanket stereotypes close mindedness. You're a real credit to the dog breeding world. Thanks for your vote of confidence, however I never said you lived in an appartment or anything else specifically about you so your quote of Blanket steriotypes & closed minds is once again come about because of your lack of understanding that this issue is about the dog and his/her needs, not the potential news owners "wants". Have a lovely Xmas You generalised that I must live in an apartment. My whole point is you can still meet and exceed a dog's needs while living in a small house and yard, apartment/ courtyard if you are committed to the dog's well being. I've seen better dog owners come from the flats at the end of my (long) street, than I have from my fellow neighbours on acreage around me. In my opinion, it easier to forget about a dog's needs in a large backyard than right under your nose inside. The responses from breeders to this in my mind raises a flawed logic. And also, between my wife and I, we owned staffys, kelpies and borders, as well as been part of the guide dog raising program. I am yet to see a dog exercise itself in one my large backyards. I'm still waiting for the day my kelpie will take it self for a jog around the perimeter.

And no one is saying it's all about yard size. Why do you care anyway - unless I'm reading it wrong, you didnt even buy from a registered breeder so it really shouldnt matter to you who breeders sell to. And I could ask ... If you're not a breeder why do you care? My working kelpie was a noonbarra. The finest dog from the greatest breeder in Australia, imo. And yes. it is about yard size. *Some* Breeders give a blanket no to someone in an apartment with only a courtyard or small yard. it's the blanket no, and the reasoning behind which irritates me.

Not at all. Do I need an agenda to talk about this? Do I need a personal experience to comment? The dog breeding world has people within it with a elitist attitudes who think they are some how qualified to pass narrow minded opinions. Does any breeder actually think that someone living with a small yard would go to the expense and trouble of being on waiting lists and paying premium dollars just to neglect their dogs? In my experience 99.9% of negligent dog owners are purchasing their dogs from pet shops, BYB's and collecting them from pounds. Because I've been with my wife at shows with her dogs and seen this sort of snooty behaviour first hand, I've been subjected to it at tracking carnivals and agility trials it is my humble opinion that these environments would be made so much more enriching with more everyday people there, treating people without the patronising nature ... It's a free world, I have an opinion based on my observations. And because I can't be caught under the generalised blanket that *some* breeders like to cast, I'm fighting the good fight I'm sure you understand.

Interesting generalisation. I live on a 3/4 acre block in a coastal/ rural nsw town. Proceed with your blanket stereotypes close mindedness. You're a real credit to the dog breeding world.

Crazy. Based on yard size? Breeders know no more about me and my ability to raise a dog than what my butcher does. That's why breeders ask questions of potential puppy buyers. Wouldnt you rather a breeder care where one of their pups end up? Again. Crazy. No one is saying breeders shouldn't care about their dogs and where they go. You keep avoiding the real question. Where does yard size correlate to being a negligent dog owner?