all creatures

See below first perhaps...did a forum boo-boo - hijacking a topic - oops The most awful thing my lovely BC did to me was at an off-leash dog beach in Perth. Hubby and I were in the waves keeping a close on the boy too - when he started sniffing at another dog owners bag - and promptly layed a big turd in it.... Hubby and I (out too deep to do anything) watched the scene unfold from the anonominity of the waves, whilst this horrified bag-owner woman came back and saw "the deed". The worst thing was that the people on the next towels pointed straight at our dog!! ...... it was fairly cringe-worthy when we finally plucked up enough courage to get out of the water adn acknowledge our dog...... What do u do??? (at least he never, ever humped anyone's leg....) (Edit - oops just read the rest of the thread.....sorry - my story inappropriate....but hope you got a smile anyway....) Is inviting dogs out to dinner a bit "humanising" at all? That's the home territory for the host families dog - unfair advantage. I don't know - personally I don't do it except only with family members... we are comfortable enough with each other to say when our dogs are pissing each other off....?

I am surprised the other male didn't react? I had an entire male - the major hassle I had on the beach was other males attacking him!? It was weird.....he never started a fight as far as I could see? Well done for having your own dog under such good control.

Thanks Corvus - I get the gist I think - more of a training aid, than a band aid perhaps, in my situation...... Phew - some of those dogs on U-tube would drive me nuts? I wonder how some of them get like that in the first place....some are borderline neurotic (no offence to anyone here - I was looking at some american stuff) but it's good to see folk who care enough to do something about it. But GSD's4 ever - your lovely dog Spirit looks like she needs to "see" - I am amazed she doesn't jump onto the roof of the kennel to do that? Love the vid with the cat - what a study! Cats are too cool for school aren't they Thanks again Corvus - your posts on arousal levels are really interesting - not something I had considered b4. Horses can be very similar in this respect too...

I am just beginning to learn that lesson LizT!! Thanks for the hint! She does take herself very seriously indeed. She is a great match for my daughter in that respect - peas in a pod.... A really strange thing happened today in that Midge tried to get to her under the chair - the chair tipped onto Midge, knocked a few things over and Midge took off up the stairs (a rare event as they are open ones) and Midge is really wary of the pup now.... She likely thinks Daisy has superpowers now!

My BC had lovely table manners until we buillt our house when he was 5yrs - then I found that the tradesmen were sneaking him their left over lunches etc.....so that was the end of that..... He never knew the significance of the sound of a rustling chip packet - then it became music to his ears.....??

What a fascinating thread! Some of b4 and after videos on U Tube blew me away. I too would love to know how this is affecting them... Corvus - I was wondering if one of TS's could help with the over-arousal (and strong prey drive) problem with my SBT Midge (when playing with Daisy the Schipp)? They are both inside lately due to the hot weather - and the gate between them is making them both whinge for other!! Must be love How is it going for Erik so far?

Yup - "the thing you worry about the most is the thing that is most likely to happen/go wrong" - I agree there dandybrush - but I am not surprised either. We may be humans - but we too are 'animals - but with an innate, intelligent, remarkable and superior knowledge of other animals also (usually because they were our prey...oops) it's no coincidence though - and if only we validated that knowledge for what it is worth perhaps. The "horse whisperer" and such - it's no real secret - it's just connecting with what we all carry inside of us, already. Some folk don't even think/believe they know how to raise a veg garden these days - let alone a dog. What is happenning to us? I find it fascinating, in my example here, as to what people suggest. It's all good - but it's also disparate and I have seen this on other topics also. Bit like raising a child these days - so much information overload.....who and what do u believe..? Many people like to hog knowledge also - giving out little bits as crumbs - it gives them a sense of power and superiority. I know this very well - as a scientist. Always listen to the people who not only give advice but back it up also. People who are genuinely interested in seeing anything improve don't hog knowledge. As for my "pedigree breeder" comment - obviously some folk were 'defensive' themselves perhaps..? Sure as hell I wasn't. But really - many things we do with our pets these days are quite "artificial" - in my humble opinion. The show ring, the groomer, the "uber-deluxe" kennels and all the other "stuff"....??? C'mon - some must admit this is partly true? Even our breeding programmes can be "artificially" selected for.... Good Breeders do their best and I truly applaud (and support) their efforts....Schipps were almost extinct not so long ago....it is through the efforts of committed people that my girl is here today....for me - this breed was worth saving. Afghan hound devotees likely feel the same about their breed. One of the things I appreciate with my Vet is that his judgement is not coloured by favouristism for any particular breed. Behind every good breeder is a good Vet I would guess? Is there anyone else out there that feels this way maybe??? Some folk are very experienced and talented with dogs and/or much bigger and smaller animals also - just because they choose not to breed, show..etc - doesn't mean they don't have a story worth listening to also - or are ignorant. This is how we learn. I get tired of "being told" by some - like their opinion is Law? I am all alone here? I will call a spade a spade here (with no fear) - some posts are a tad over the top......my dream is too see all folk who are interested in the welfare of our animal brothers and sisters - to work together to make their world a better place. That's why I am here.... I just don't get into the one-up-manship that sometimes occurs in many forums, unfortunately. Will likely get fried for that comment - but at least it's the truth and I really don't care. I am here for my animal buddies - not my ego. Well - there is my rant and my 2 cents worth

Thanks for more tips, I am actually appreciating the topic also (funny about that!) For the sake of not boring everyone to death - I spared you the "big picture" - but maybe it's worth recording it for others down the track. Big mistake No.1: Never thought it would happen to me - but we have a mismatched breed and home. Whilst I have always taken painstaking measures to choose a breed suited to me and now my child - my OH chose a STB. As much as I understand this choice and don't like to be critical - it was a perhaps selfish choice and one that I resisted for some time. It is not in my nature to not love and care for Midge - but I also have to make the best of a less than ideal situation. Sure I make mistakes - but I am trying my best by both her and my family (BTW - 7yr old will not interact with Midge because she is so rough) Of interest: I am not convinced, yet, that this is a good companion combination. If it were my BC and Schipp - we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He was of oustanding temperament and very level headed. Ditto for the STB/BC combo - it went brilliantly. Poodlefan crystallised my doubts by looking to the future and also understood the outside/inside thing. So, armed with video footage of the girls at play, we 3 are off to my Vet on Monday to chew the fat. He is a behaviourist, fortunately. I will be sure to post his feedback as follow up. Unfortunatley: Due to circumstances beyond both Midge's and my own control - she has not been socialised extensively enough for me to be confident of her limits and reactions in different situations. Sadly: These two girls are a part of our family and I expect them to be here, together, for a long time. They can't be separated indefintitely. If they do turn out to be a problem combo - then either my hubby or my 7yr old may to have to give their dog up..... Lastly: This is my daughters very first pup that she has wished and prayed for every B'day and Xmas - for a number of years now. She dotes on Daisy and vice versa. My great fear is that Midge will somehow damage Daisy, or much worse. I have no desire to see my childs heart broken like that - and I wouldn't blame her if she never liked Midge again. That wouldn't make for a happy family. Hence - I am trusting my instincts on this one - and want to get on top of this sooner rather than later. I very much hope that I can post here in times to come and say it all worked out fine. It's also the reason I am a bit frustrated with the tying-up issue. The forrest can be bigger than the trees sometimes - and I believe in my heart I did the right thing and still do. If I am to be pinged for it - then ping me for tying her up to the BBQ - which was the silly thing in hindsight - she may well have been strong enough to pull down it on top of herself - she wouldn't choke a puppy to death in a split second, and never in a million years would I leave them like that on their own. So - is that an interesting behavioural science lesson? :D Comments, advice and suggestions always welcome - opinions ...maybe not so much...

Oh, they are not dumb, but they are exuberant and sometimes don't have stellar self-control. Most dogs can learn well enough if they are calm enough to think. Look up Dee Ganley's "Chill Out" game, which is here. Although I found by the time I had my puppy well enough trained to play this game I no longer really needed it as the pup had grown out of the worst of it. Perhaps it is a good thing to have in the wings, though. I am a great believer in free play. Evidence suggests it is more important in developing creativity and coping skills than we ever imagined. But when play gets too intense it can turn nasty, and the last thing you want is your little Schipp getting in trouble if she ever tries to express a desire for the play to stop and the SBT doesn't take kindly to it - something I've seen SBTs do and it frightens me. I don't have any SBTs (and never will, thanks!), but my approach to arousal in general is if I think it is too high I need to do something to make sure this doesn't become a habit. Enter self-control exercises and the chill out game. Rough play is proportional to arousal, so I would monitor and not just stop them or split them up when it gets too rough, but take steps to calm them down a bit. Food in exchange for calm behaviours like downs can work well. If you do it every single time for a while, you might be able to condition the SBT to regulate her arousal to some extent during play. Don't hold me to that, though. I've never tried it! At the least you should be able to teach them a "chill out" cue so you don't have to actually get up from your cuppa and intervene physically. Thanks Corvus - I will certainly check that link out. Yes - STB's punch well above their size/weight ratio in strength and those jaw and neck muscles are intimidating for me too - even our german shephard didn't make me feel that way. For this reason Midge and I have developed completely non-contact play together and she is very good with the rules of the game. No - not dumb - just "pretends" she is Can be exasperating at times....especially given my breed preferences At this stage I am right there with them (in free play) and call them to me when I think it's overheated - I give them equal attention at that point and we have a bit of a scratch etc....but some specific methods would be good. Many thanks! ps - the arousal point you made is very interesting - the Schipp definitely heightens Midges far more than the BC ever did.....maybe that's the key here....

Showdog is not only a breeder and exhibitor, she also runs a boarding kennel and is a professional groomer, she will have had far more experience with Staffords than you have. Personally I don't allow any rough play between puppies and older dogs, it's just too dangerous especially when the older dog is a breed known for being boisterous and full on. Older dogs can be taught how to play with puppies and smaller breeds and allowing your two dogs to play as they are at the moment is just asking for trouble, the puppy may well be having fun, but it is your job to ensure its safety. I also agree with those who say that you shouldn't be tying up the older dog. You have posted on a public forum and will receive plenty of opinions that you don't agree with or don't want to hear, if you're not prepared for that, perhaps it's better not to post in the first place. Hi - I don't want to start a war of words here - so maybe we should drop the whole "tying up" part of the discussion, please At the end of the day - they are my dogs and I know them better than anyone - especially at home and in their "normal" environment. With that, and the situation in mind - I disagree with Showdog and will say so - so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree I genuinely appreciate the advice - certainly in that the pup could get tangled - but I not totally hapless. Comments such "not posting" are not very constructive to intelligent debate and certainly put me off seeking further information - much of which has been excellent. I care enough about my dogs well being to be posting here in the first place - surely that is a good thing and to be encouraged

Free play is great when dogs are similarly matched in size and play styles. My canine sports massage friend says there is no better exercise for a dog. Play between littermates is probably about the best you can get. Mismatched you can end up with permanent physical damage (know of an OCD case) and aggressive responses triggered by being outgunned and unable to stop the other dog. If the Stafford is an outside dog, every time that Skip comes out its going to be on. I think both dogs would benefit from being put in situations where they can chill out together. Side by side crates inside would be one such method. As both dogs are female? I'd be watching the Staffords reaction to a maturing pup carefully also. She may come to the point where she won't allow the liberties she does now. Thanks Poodlefan - that is wise advice. They are both bitches and that may well be my next problem The advice I have got from breeders and my own research would suggest that the Schipp could very well take on more than she bargains for. We can achieve quiet time inside more easily. I will try it today - first taking the 'edge' of them both with separate play/excercise time..? But I will watch closely with your comments in mind - and I am actually expecting that one will need to be spayed. It's hard to explain - but having had so many dogs and different combinations of pups, adults etc - this developing relationship bothers me for some reason. I usually trust my instincts and have raised many happy, healthy pets from cats, dogs, horses, parrots, chooks, guinea pigs, rabbits, calves, lambs, goats, pigs etc etc....(hence the tag all creatures...) my gut feeling here (after only a week even) is that there is going to be trouble at some stage. I hope not - as they could become very good mates if it turns out well. My Vet is mobile also - so I might have a chat with him about coming here for next Vacc's and to observe them interact also.

Hi 3Woofs - are Amstaff's like SBT's when it comes to play also?

Crikey - I would never even lightly smack my pets/dogs - ever - and what the hell is a pronged collar? It sounds like something out of the Dark Ages I agree with the comments here - cruelty is not the answer - nor ever - it's just "ruling through fear". And are these things actually allowed by the RSPCA and/or legal??? I'll bet if it became common public knowledge the outcry would soon fix that.

Yes I agree - but the point of taking the puppy outside is so that she can "be" outside - not in a pen..? The house paddock is 5acres - there are no dividing fences. So I guess I can put Midge inside - while the puppy gets to play outside. So that should fix that problem...and I get my cuppa in peace!? :D But the point I was trying to get to was how much time is enough for the two to be together......I agree - "how" they are playing is important - but I have two breeds that are a weird combo here - a Schipp is described as a "big dog in a small dogs body" - and I whole heartedly agree with that - so they "egg each other on" basically. The rougher the pup gets - the more fun Midge thinks the game is - and she responds by upping the ante - she's not a terrier for nothing (more like terrorist!). As someone mentioned - "body-slamming" - that's a very staffy thing to do also..... Thanks for the time to reply - I will have a chat to my Vet also - he's been around for a long time and is great for advice too, as he knows my dogs well - from young one's.

Hmmmm not quite sure what you mean by that last comment? If you don't want advice don't ask, Showdog is just being helpful and if you think just because someone breeds dog thier advice isn't valid or is snobby maybe this forum is not the right place for you. A person like showdog who breeds a small breed and also owns very large active breeds as well as owning a boarding kennel is going to have helpful advice. Maybe try listening instead of getting defensive. :D Best of luck with the new pup and always if in doubt go to the pups breeder :D True - but maybe people shouldn't jump to conclusions without checking the info first. I didn't ask for advice on whether I should be tying Midge up or not and the underlying tone (to me) was that I was being rather horrible and/or 'clueless' perhaps. Personally I found Showdogs last post rather sarcastic and unnecessary. Does Showdog own a SBT? Not all breeds of dog are the same - nor each individual within a breed - and even my Vet will state that Staffies are not the sharpest tool in the shed. To own a Staffy is to know a goof-ball with no idea of it's own strength. So no - not being defensive - just a little annoyed, in truth. But I guess that happens with typed messages - hence the use of emoticons...no harm done on this side

He he ... husband chose the staffy - not me (and lucky him gets to work FIFO). I would never have picked that breed in my life, for myself....no need to get all "pedigree breeder" on me there Showdog...

Hey - thanks heaps everyone - that's all good info (sorry about your dogs injuries though - but that's exactly what I am trying to fathom/avoid. I felt really guilty about holding Midge back - as she is missing Loki very badly - and is way too thrilled to have a new dog around. Poor love - she means well but she is very much like a spring loaded wrecking ball... I have grown up with sheep dogs, working farm dogs, gun dogs. So a Staffy (my husbands dog, in truth) is a whole new experience for me - and she is a whole lot of dog! A desperate question I know - but I don't suppose there is anyway I can train a Staffy to play more gently...??? It's a shame that other family members have to exclude their dogs - as they love coming up here to run amok on the block and it means I can't dog-sit for them anymore when they go on holidays.

Thanks corvus - Midge (SBT) and Loki (BC) were fine and raised together straight off - but they were a different personality combo....and their bodies more evenly matched in strength and endurance - if that makes sense....Midge was a tough little brick straight off. When she matured and became stronger than the 10yr BC - he just flopped on his bed and ignored her when he had enough. Daisy the Schipp is different again - she is no physical match for the staffy nor ever will be. We have to keep my Mum's Sheltie away from Midge now - simply because Midge is too rough and the Sheltie ends up going home limping - not good. Prevention better than cure seems sensible in this example..

And that is just what people are doing- suggesting you have a pen where pup can be confined to rest its body (and also to learn that it can be on its own happily) The puppy is very much a baby ..and I'm sure when your 7 yr old was a toddler she got put down for naps, etc during the day ? She was not just left to crawl around/run /be handled by older kids? Oh.. and if you have a dog tied up- AND a baby puppy free to still interact , please be aware that accidents can happen with rope/chain and baby puppy necks/legs. I have seen a puppy turn blue because it was playing with a tethered dog and got tangled. Umm - she flops down inside quite happily and sleeps whenever she wants. We respect her nap time. When she gets to carried away she gets ignored until she settles down. My only concern here is the interaction between the two dogs. Is 3 x 10 mins a day too much? Possibly. The dogs are fully supervised by me when they are together - so an accident not likely when I am 2 feet away. Daisy only goes outside for about 10 mins 3x a day for toileting and exploration. We have a 30 acre block which is a lot of space for a puppy to get lost in. We have lots of snakes also. We also have very large raptors - which could easily take her down. It's also extremely hot here for a pup relocated from cooler climate, that is black and double coated. I am quite happy with what we are doing. We only have one child who is a very gentle and mature girl - she is trustworthy around animals. I am happy with DeltaCharlies experience with this problem - so thanks for all the comments and advice (ps - here they are right now..... even a puppy can't compete with a DS sometimes!! )

Thanks DeltaCharlie - that's what I suspected and the info I was after. My best mate was a BC too - just lost him a month ago @ 12yrs One thing his breeder stressed to me was that puppies must always be able to rest whenever the need to - otherwise they can damage their growing joints. Midge was a pup with Loki and he was 10yrs and the boss - so there were no dramas (Midge also built like a tank) Trouble is - I have never had a Schipp before and she just doesn't seem to know when to quit (maybe a breed trait..?)- so I will have to intervene by the sounds of it!

Midge very rarely tied up - only intermittently when the play gets out of hand, and only for 10 mins or so - so I can have my morning cuppa in peace. Daisy (pup) lives inside - and is my 7yr olds dog - Midge is an outside dog and always has been. I do not intend on have a puppy pen here. No offence - but I am really after information on the well being of the pup's body - not a behavioural science lesson

Hello All, We have recently welcomed a female Schipperke puppy (now 9 weeks) into our home. We have a Staffy (SBT) bitch who is about 2yrs. They are both young and full of energy! Whilst I am happy that they are playing together - the staffy is a very strong and powerful girl who doesn't really know her own strength - and the Schipp just doesn't know when to stop - and is fearless! They are both wagging their tails and having a ball together and Daisy is not yelping in pain or anything (growling most of the time actually) My only problem is that I am a little concerned that Midge (staffy) may inadvertantly damage Daisies little growing body....and I might end up with a pup with bad hips or such. So my question is: How much rough play is enough for a puppy? I tie up Midge at present - so that little Daisy can take time out as she needs - but she keeps going back for more. Any thoughts advice most appreciated.

This is interesting- so if you have children-you cannot effectively discipline them if you love them dearly? I figure if you love a dog/child a LOT ,then you will take a step backwards if needed, to be able to teach and discipline them as they grow. Loving translates into preparing them to behave in a socially acceptable manner- to learn consequences of behaviour,and to enjoy praise earned :D ..Just my take on it. 'LOVE' should be the window of light- letting you see what's needed,and a source of strength to carry it out :D I like this post - it is thoughtful and wise. Interestingly the word "discipline" is derived from the word disciple - which means "to teach" It's a shame it seems to have become a bad word.

My border collie male (entire) challenged ME for the first time ever when he was 5yrs old (I was growling at him, verbally, for peeing on the patio pot plants..) It was such a shock for me. We also had our first child (3 weeks old) when it happened and I was concerned about this. I took him to the Vet straight away and discussed this - he recommended having him de-sexed - especially as we now had a child, and he was a fully mature male feeling his oats. We did this and never had a problem for the next 7yrs of his life. However, he was never allowed in the babies room. Never was he allowed to have physical contact with Grace until she was walking - and he was a very well trained dog. It was just commonsense to me at the time - I am no expert. Supervision is all very well - but will you be able to react fast enough to prevent a bite? It can all happen in a split second. But if there were to be ongoing problems - he would have been re-homed, even though I adored him. You can always have another dog..... It's not worth the risk and you would never forgive yourself if the child ended up scarred for life. Dogs are an animal at the end of the day. I don't think anyone can predict them 100% of the time? As someone mentioned...your child is "beneath" your dog in the pack order, especially as the dog came first also...don't ever forget that. I hope it works out for you and your family.

They are awesome little dogs I know for a fact i wouldnt be able to handle a rotti, dob or akita i know they are a very strong breed and thanks for your advice. He he - yea - she is a pretty special little pup - super smart and very plucky! (but won't grow big) My dog-of-my-life was my Border Collie, that we lost recently. I can agree with Nekhbet - they are a fantastic first dog (at your age now) and great for a young person with lots of energy. They are such a rewarding dog to do extensive training with also (And they do need to be trained well - lest you end up with a car chaser...) I also had little problems renting, with him - a well accepted breed on that score. He wasn't very tough looking though ('beautiful' more like it..) Keep doing your homework (and it's a great thing that you are) - you will find the right breed for you and have a good mate for years. You can always learn marshall arts to protect yourself hey???