all creatures

maybe you could have a look in other forums like the training one, you might find what you want there Thanks for the tip. Hasn't been mentioned b4. I didn't think PDrift was a training issue as such - but will be sure to have a read. Please forgive my ignorance - I am still on my "L" plates and subject to bitch-drive maybe....must remember to stick my tail between my legs when I make a break for it....like now..I actually have lots of other animals n stuff to care for right now. Thanks for bashing my confidence around. Well done. Anyway - come join a gardening forum any time you like.....very civilised.....and welcoming of new people. We don't actually have "post tallies" - why? I think they are dreadful myself. But there u go. A post of 5,000 doesn't make an expert - could be just someone who had too much time on their hands at the computer..it's a not necessarily a mark of validity/superiority IMHO.

And you know what - that's just plain nasty. I have just as much right to be here as you. What a horrible attitude. I can't even be bothered to "report this" - best of luck with your report mate.

quoting you so you can't delete your woe is me post Jesus - you are a worry. Why would I want to delete it? It's from my heart - I am not embarrassed? Should I be? Are you? A whole 60 or whatever posts? Is this something I should be ashamed of? How do earn my stars n stripes here? How sad - and this merely serves to illustrate my point - in-experienced folk need to be here -but folk like you - scare them all away. Who do u think pays the price at the end of the day......the dog...duhh? Love dogs? then help - don't criticise. And you are the exact example of my comment above : Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling I rest my case and now - I would like to get back to the topic (and I am sure the same applies for others?) And don't call me a twit ever again - don't be so arrogant to presume you know me. Thank you.

How do you know why people didn't post here? Lots of people read topics and don't reply, and they don't reply for lots of reasons. Why are you taking it so personally? Frankly with this last post of yours I wonder why I am bothering to reply to you at all. Ummm....because some of these folk are definitely ones who would very likely have even just a tiny bit of info to add here....? (Alot, in fact) But maybe some folk have been bashed around so much on this forum - they feel a need to keep a low profile perhaps?

How do you know why people didn't post here? Lots of people read topics and don't reply, and they don't reply for lots of reasons. Why are you taking it so personally? Frankly with this last post of yours I wonder why I am bothering to reply to you at all. Sigh... enter the Troll....

Greytmate - thank you for your time to respond so comprehensively (and diplomatically also) - such an interesting post. It will take me some time to digest all the info there - but I have so many questions bubbling away already! ... But many won't see the light of day here perhaps.... Suffice to say - in our incident - my Mum and Baby (in the pram) and me - witnessed Mr BC be a very quick dog on his feet. He did not back down.....submitting was simply not an option for him - poor bugger - he knew damn well that he was fighting for his life, and he was no fighter. I believe that was significant - in the scenario also perhaps. Thank god for his mane - I think that, and his speed/agility, were the only things that saved his life....and in those very fast seconds - I believe I 'saw' what was going through his mind - shock, confusion, fear, bravery......I will never forget it - like a slow motion film....I felt every second of it too. It was all could do not to not to get in there myself with my ball thrower and beat that bloody dog on the head.....feral feelings on my part there too... Anyway - I am guessing you test prey drives for a good reason Greytmate. Your comments come the full circle perhaps....eg: have a HPD dog that is a known finisher? take repsonsible measures....have a small dog? maybe don't let it run amok with the big HPD dogs?

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic. Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment. Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....) Maybe we should drop our ego's at the log in and just 'talk' about the big picture sometimes..? Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling - and I don't even see it this bad on forums without a moderator......? Yup - behaviour begets behaviour and I find that I have responded, in like, and yes I am ashamed......lost my sense of humour also... (and I am no hyprocrite here - I have lost my PM rights - like the naughty child I was...) but I am not going to get sucked in anymore. Ever heard of "trolling"? Lots of it going on in this site..... and Maybe it's no surprise, after all, the whole dog ownership thing and all..... is such a mess - such a lack of consensus and/or mature communication between the experts, intelligent dog folk, breeders and the rest.......how do you think that you will ever be able to change anything for the better this way.....? Sometimes we truly dont' see the forrest for the trees, it seems. My first ever dog forum - for my first ever problems. It might be my last....but - I need to be here right now - and I need all of you, too. Don't let us possibly less experienced folk down here please. I am here for my dogs....and I will quite happily lay my soul bare for them, here in public. My mistakes, my successes, ignorance....whatever it takes to get it right. Edit: You can say what u like here (I have thick skin!) but the whole prey drive and PDrift - whilst it was a sort of shock for me initially - it ended up being no real mystery once I looked deeper, actually ....and I don't know if that's just me - because I am a nerdy scientist-type that analyses things to death - or not. It was like a whole "cascade" of 43yrs around dogs just "locked into place", for me, personally. I just don't think it's a very complicated thing to understand, for me (IMHO)....?

Just a quickie: "The principles of expecting 'reasoning powers beyond that which they are capable' refers as much to adults dealing with young children, as it does to dogs." I love this comment, myself. So true.. and significant.

Greytmate I have read many of your posts (and nekhbets) on this topic - and I have found them really interesting Can you describe what prey drive looks like at all please? or maybe even a video? (but that one may be a big ask, I realise..) I 'think' I have witnessed PDrift first hand - but not sure - maybe just an aggressive dog. Maybe you might like to comment? This is what I witnessed: My entire male BC in an empty lot playing fetch with me - so very active (duhh..!?) Big dog barking along an adjoining fence line for maybe 5 mins - didn't think anything of it - me or my boy. A totally unexpected attack from the same dog - a very large pedigree GSD - that escaped this backyard. The dog hurtled across the 20m at a speed that was mind blowing. The dog had his tail fully erect, hackles up. His eyes were entirely focussed on my dog and his stare did not waver for one millisecond - (even though I was yelling my head off, waving my arms etc) His run was low and focussed, not bounding etc... He went straight for the neck hold on my BC and would not stop. The owner was home (thank god..) and raced out but could not call his dog off verbally. He was forced to physically intervene. Owner was very, very shaken. Also - does the "drift" part mean a drift in their target-prey? (ie from rabbits to small dogs for eg)

Phew!! I am glad my gardening forums are not this full on!? Veggies much more Zen... For what it's worth: here is my in-experienced impression of the important stuff (IMHO): One of the important points of Predatory Drift is that it is *not common* (as far as I can tell) so not a reason to panic - just another tool in our kit, in understanding and educating people about their dogs, and specific breeds of dogs maybe? (just in case casual readers are getting freaked out by the topic here...) The second point is that it seems to be a *size issue*? - a dog that only has high prey drive for little critters is not the same thing as another dog taking on something it's own size or larger (unless perhaps that dog has been specifically trained to take down larger animals maybe?....not sure there) My SBT likes rabbits - doesn't mean she will attack and kill the neighbours fully grown goats......or another dog her same size or larger, for eg. (Maybe that falls into "aggression" territory?) and no - she doesn't. She is totally submissive to other dogs - even other bitches, in fact. But maybe that's why small dogs and children are often the unwitting 'accidents' also.... there seems to be a pattern there...? It is more likely to occur, more often, with certain breeds. For eg: how often do read about a BC killing another dog, child etc? It seems that the book/DVD in the OP may address some of these issues. If you are hunting pigs - would you use a BC, for example....if the suit fits, wear it..? It's not rocket science perhaps? There can be other factors at play too though - like 2, or more, dogs working in concert, an ill or injured dog around etc, also. Eg 2 'medium' dogs may attack one small child - but one dog on it's own less likely....? Just guessing there tho' - in the absence of our more expert forumites..... If you google dog attacks - you will find some really interesting patterns. HPDrive - I have been here with my own SBT - and have had only recent cause to doubt her. I was one of those ignorant HPDrive dog owners, and I am not embarrassed to say this. I say it because I can see, now, how sad accidents can happen with HPDrive dogs. I have been shocked by my own ignorance. Grown up with dogs all my life - but not HPDrive breeds. How many other people are out there like me? Or worse - this is their first dog ever....? Fortunately for us - it's going to work out because now we are informed (and we had a set of very fortunate factors at play here, including her breeder). I am going to go out (very far) on a limb here and highlight a personal observation for us - for my dog in a family situation (as promoted) - YES - without a shadow of doubt. On a rural property where tempatation is ever-present (but rarely accessible)....maybe it's not fair to expect her to be an angel when it comes to 'little critters'.....forewarned is forearmed. She is "primed" now and that's all there is to it. I don't find PDrift scary - what I do find scary is that we don't always talk honestly about these things. And we should because it's possible your favourite breed could get banned ... and that's sad. Anyway I have to end on a high note here because in researching dog attacks etc I came across some horrific stuff that really upset me Here is a link to a big and small dog at 'healthy play' (owned by some dog expert..) - and I think it's just lovely.. (ps corvus - i got the joke...)

I usually bring my dogs inside to the aircon when the temp hits around 35/36oC on a windy day, and a bit less than that on a humid/calm day (and any time that they look uncomfortable of course) - our climate is extremely dry though. Is this the sort of threshhold others find too?

Agree - call your vet for advice - don't wait. After collapse comes coma - which if you are lucky enough and your dog survives - there is a risk of brain damage. Our dog died of a heart attack at the vets straight after being resus'd (so it pays to act fast if you get to the collapse stage - transpost them with wet towels and ice packs around their tummy etc) (not that you are at that stage of course OP - but it helps to know all you can just in case it ever happens - it's one of the most common events Vets see with dogs in summer..)

why ? if one of my family went out and purchased a blue pup, they'd certainly be subject to what I thought. followed by not to bother to come to me when poo hits the fan, because they have been warned. I would do the same. How are people ever going to learn if we all keep our mouths shut? Diplomacy, tact and good family relations. There are times when keeping ones mouth shut is a sign of maturity and this is one of those times. The pup's already bought and paid for and no doubt being shown off proudly. What earthly good is criticising the purchase going to do now? That's not educating anyone, that's just making yourself look like a mean-spirited know-all. Wise words and I agree. The pup is still an unknown quantity too I would think? Although I do wonder if people who are prepared to pay that much for a SBT maybe because of it's colour - really know much about the breed? After my own experiences I know now that there is much more, that is different, to owning a SBT than owning a sheepdog for eg. OP - maybe the best thing you can do is help them raise a SBT with behaviour etc, to be proud of...

What great reading. I must admit that my own dogs don't sleep on the bed - but my daughters pup does. When I was old enough my Mum let 'her' dog and the cat sleep on my bed and I loved her for it - as I was scared of the dark. I allow it for my daughter too - but I am a grown up and in control of the pups training etc - there is no roost ruling with my child, let alone our pets.... Anyway - one thing that has been proven is that asthma, dermatitis, eczema - are practically unheard of in 3rd world countries - and it's believe it is because we are too hygenic....pet contact is a good thing for kids and helps build immunity also. I talk to my dogs all the time (but don't expect an answer!) It's better than talking to myself..... :D I always find a dogs reaction to any of us crying really interesting....? My BC would always come and gently put his head in my lap and just look up at me and stay there....it 'felt' like there was empathy (so I guess that is humanising of me..) - but maybe he was just smart enough to understand the 'sounds' and the body language - dogs would have to the experts in reading body language wouldn't they?

You are right BB - the tide is turning and Midge seems to be losing interest rather rapidly in Daisy - in fact Daisy bit her (SBT) on the leg this morning (in play) and made her yelp - and Midge has run off around the back and hidden.....(she is a real sooky our SBT) (edit: and yes - I do love her - she is a real sweetie.. ) So that just leaves me back with CC's and other Schipp owners very wise comments - the Schipp can fend for herself and it's a puppy age thing. I feel much better about it all and can now get on with the tasks at hand that are so enjoyable - training a new (and very clever) pup! Hooray!!

That's a really interesting comment!- as we do play the stalking/chasey game with SBT. Is perhaps not an ideal game to play if you want to not increase drive? I found it really interesting to watch some of the U-tube movies of different dogs (breeds and sizes) at play (they have some silly titles like labrador/doberman attack and such..) If I can find them again I might post the links as there was some interesting stuff going on in them (to me anyway..) It would be great to see what the professionals like Steve and Greytmate see/think might be going on in these clips perhaps?

Ha. If your friend could be held accountable than the registered breeder that bred my mother's dog that is riddled with health problems and doesn't even approach the breed standard could be held accountable for his permanent and ongoing reduction in quality of life. I wish. (Just a quick slide off topic...sorry) Sorry, my mistake OH says they are registered in fact. My friend is not the type of person to do deliberate wrong by anyone in anyway - and maybe there is more to the Dam's issues than I am aware of (as I know nothing about breeding..) I should say that - as my friend may ending up reading this one day! ;) But yes - there are some real issues aren't there. Bit of a mess really. I, for one, am so grateful that I have had the reaped the benefits of good breeding, with my own dogs over the years.

Coincidence - have just been discussing an inexperienced (but registered) person I know breeding blue SBT's in the predatory drift thread....the stud bitch has known agression issues with other dogs (not to scare you there OP - there may be more to her issues that I don't know about) Anway - The pups are $1500 each.

I find it really interesting too - two of the links discuss breeds and their motor patterns - and their connection with predatory drift and potentially higher risks. I have a SBT and after much recent reading, observing, referring to her breeder etc etc - I am much more comfortable/confident in my HPDrive girl (just to keep it short and sweet there). But just to take a huge leap here, if it's Ok - someone I know has recently started pedigree Blue SBT's (with no prior dog breeding experience, showing etc etc) and although I dont' agree with it myself (as it's about profit also) - after all my research here - I can see how easily a breed can get such a unfairly tarnished reputation and possibly preventable accidents can happen (many here probably know this story all to well already...) But - his stud female has known aggression towards other dogs. I don't breed but I can appreciate this might not be a good thing in his stud bitch? I am thinking that he would be very wise to discuss his dam's traits (in light of HPD) with his potential clients? In an ideal world his clients would have done their homework well enough to ask the "right" questions etc. But does he also have an ethical/moral responsibilty towards his clients - in order that they can make informed choices for themselves, family, lifestyle etc? Anyway - apart from his ethical responsibilties etc - I now wonder how accountable he could be held in his duty of care and skill - if one of his offspring pups is involved in a bad incident and he has not disclosed the information about his stud girl? (another big leap in the topic there I guess...) I have no idea about legislation, etc etc - but we do live a litigous society. Many variables with PD as Corvus mentioned and I am not wanting to imply anything or upset anyone - as it can be an emotive topic for many also. (I will have a chat and find out more, with my friend also I owe that much to our lovely canine buddies) I am just wondering if it might be food for thought for the wrong kind of breeders of HPD breeds? Maybe it could help make positive changes...(but that's another huge leap perhaps.... ???

Oh. I haven't found it mentioned/discussed in the forum b4? Is it a controversial topic - or maybe inappropriate/too sepcialised for this Forum? If so - should it be removed maybe?

While I was looking around for more info to help me understand my dogs with a strong prey drive - I came across this article which I found disturbing (just my feeling though..) I have never heard of this before either: http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2...predatory-drift It made me feel despair that this person stated there there was no control over Predatory Drift. I found it alarmist. Then I found the source material (the book above) and it 'seems' a bit more rational, in it's introduction (but haven't seen the rest). I have asked around (even my SBT's breeder) and no one seems to have heard of it - so I am now wondering if it's either too new - or it's not an accepted theory on dog behaviour? I have also had a terrible predatory dog experience and from researching prey drives on this forum - I can see others have too (not saying mine was due to this and I don't know all the facts behind the dog involved either) There is a very interesting thread on another forum about it: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t13898-11/ I have been thinking about it alot (and I am trying not to botch the topic here guys... ) and wondering if it's more a set of circumstances all coming togther with tragic consequences? EG: the Owner of a high prey drive dog (HPDD) that doesn't understand it + Opportunity (ie the small dog in the unleashed dog park) + a HPDD/breed that is a known 'finisher" (kills rather than releases) + just plain scary Owners who actually encorouge their dogs prey drive maybe + a dog with previous aggression etc There will be others with more experienced and/or qualifcations that could add to this. Please don't shoot me down in flames :D - I am not saying I agree with this theory or not - just curious/interested. There is perhaps no cure for human stupidity in some sad accidents I agree....but some accidents are genuine. And maybe accidents could be looked at as opportunities to learn and change also? For example - as first time SBT (and also a HPDD) owners - the breeder didn't discuss the possibility of high prey drive - I am not blaming the breeder or breed for anything here - we should have done our homework better also. So the blame is really ours and I accept that. Would I have made a different breed choice - possibly. Would it help if a breeder discussed an issue like this with us, with a known first timer - I think so. (Eg: my BC breeder discussed many possible problem traits with him and it was because of this I was alert and proactive in preventing car cashing etc...) Just interested

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dtb888 Has anyone used this book /dvd at all and did you find it useful? Thanks

I guess it's something like this that I am wondering about (a cut and paste from another web site): Predatory Drift happens when the larger dog's instinct to hunt are triggered. These instincts can be triggered when play escalates or gets too much like the real thing (an out of control chase game). It can happen when a small dog gets scared or injured and squeals or wriggles in a way that makes them look like prey (dinner), Predatory Drift can happen just because thesize difference says, "You are comparatively bite-sized, or move like something that is bite-sized, and I am a canine predator." The most alarming fact about Predatory Drift is that it can happen even with well-behaved, well-socialized, playful dogs who play well and often with no aggression, and no fights. Dogs who are triggered into predatory drift, may or may not have ever been in a dog fight, and may or may not be generally well-behaved and obedient. There is NO protection against predatory drift. It is not a good dog/bad dog problem. Predatory Drift is not about how brave, strong, feisty, or fearless the small dog acts. Predatory Drift is not about how well your medium or large, or extra large dog plays, listens to you, or how many times they have met, played with or been around a small dog. Predatory Drift can even happen between two dogs that know each other well and have lived, played, and or known each other for years. In the right situation, a sudden shift happens and the predatory sequence (like dominoes falling) is triggered and completed with lightening fast speed. While it is not a problem seen every day, all it takes is the slightest trigger -an injury, a fight, a response to something startling or scary. Predatory Drift is a SIZE MATTER! It usually involves a grab and shake, which instantly breaks the small dog's neck. There is no time to react. This in not a fight, it does not escalate. There is a trigger and then it is over. Just looking to when schipp is older, I guess. Has anyone seen/experienced this before?

zackly! Maybe it's because we have the capacity to feel love? Guilty as charged (but shhh it's a secret ...don't tell my dogs... ) How hard is it to resist that "look" they give you sometimes....

There is a fancy name for it...anthro-something-or-rather... Anyway - has this topic been done b4 and if not - why not and would be intersting to discuss perhaps?