PAX

I think a good Mal will give supreme drive for training. This a a Mal puppy I had boarding for 6 weeks, maybe 8..she was amazing. Made me think my dogs were a bit dim but I wouldn't want to live with her, she was like a Kelpie on speed...lol.

I thought it was a Mal.

Drive is not really important unless we can harness for good and not evil.

You must be kidding If I had to do that I would buy a guinnea pig. Maybe instead of being so defensive of +R training, you could do some research so your next dog doesn't have to experience this 'training', if you can call it that. Poor frigging dogs.

If she is so excited by the vest, use it as a training distraction. Put the vest on the ground and work her around it, reward her for attention on you and ignoring the vest. Make it easy for her to have sucsess!!!!! (so you remeber this part) She needs to work through this and know that the rewards come from you and not the magic vest.

Steve is passionate about handlers making heeling and Obedience trialling fun for our dogs. Steve runs a great seminar and is very personable, if you're interested in motivational training you will get heaps out of it, as well as having a great time at Camp Tailwaggers. Ptolomy, thanks for posting our link.

Susan Garrett = Say Yes dog training, Linda is one of her staff. Susan is the guru of agility training so you won't go wrong.

I would love to watch one of his best obedience rounds and then compare it to one of todays top +R rounds.

Well that's great but they way we would train it is, she would be busting to get it, you would not need to NRM for not getting it, you would be fighting her to be steady getting it...lol. Horses for courses.

Huski, you have a hard breed to train and I give you heaps of credit for acheiving what you have with Daisy. I'm sure the NRM works for you, I bet Daisy is indifferent, but whatever, you are both happy training and that's what counts. I sometimes use a NRM for a known exercise, I say 'what happened?' or 'oops' but the only difference to my dogs is they don't get the reward. I think the NRM is for my benefit and not theirs. Often (when I can keep my mouth shut) I don't use it and the training results are the same if not better. Maybe you could give it a go and let Daisy be the judge.

I guess it's really semantics, I always worry what the general DOL readers think is a fair punishment for a dog, most people reading this don't have the experience with dogs that those of us argueing do. I have never met a dog that wants to be wrong and in trouble... ever!

Well here goes... Even the way you say removal of reward eerks me, my dogs never know when they will be rewarded and they are never bribed, I never lie to them. If they do as I want they get what they want. Is a NRM good for you? Or good for the dog? Have you tried reward training without it, and noticed a difference in learning speed? I believe dogs are so tuned into body langauge that I struggle to fake that I'm happy, not prove that I'm displeased? I totally get that this is all in the print and we would most likely agree in person... maybe. The way I use punishment and yes I do use it, I wont open the gate until you sit, if you don't sit that is totally ok, the gate just doesn't open (of course I know the dog knows sit), I am consistant, the rules are the same every day, and I offer lots of great things for complience. I board a few dogs and I never have a problem with rudeness after a day, the rules are black and white. I just worry with all the talk of punishment because I see how most people interpret it, and that's smack the dog, which the dog learns nothing except that people are mental. For example, I have a dog here boarding that the owners adore, but they scream at him to sit or whatever, I have never had to do this. If he doesn't obey the gates don't open, he is so obedient here with me. I am always amazed at how much dogs learn in a world of ignorant dog owners. We are the supposedly superior race but we expect our dogs to understand English.

That's true, but it is hardly a punisher in my dogs eyes = never been punished in training so if they don't get the reward they just try again even harder, hardly an adversive the way we train. I would never reprimand my dog for trying???, that makes no sense to me. This stuff is hard to express for me in text, much easier in person. If they make the wrong choice then clearly I haven't trained it, so bad me.

Well if it's inconsistency the handler should be punished. If it is training to stay off the lounge, wouldn't it be easier to reward the dog for being in the right place, I am obviosly thinking about this too much. I just don't ever want to correct something that I haven't trained and I think that is the most important point. If I have trained it correctly, the dog wont get it wrong.

I agree, but if Daisy finds the removal of the reward unpleasant, why would you bother with a harsh verbal reprimand as a NRM, why not just let her figure it out if she is truly is working for the reward?

Point six is weird, if punishment has to happen every time, then clearly the punishment hasn't worked. I would be looking for a better training system, dogs never chose to be in trouble.

PM MrsD, they camp and stay at Mylestrom (sp?) south of Coffs Harbour, it supposed to be great for dogs.

Corvus, I just think you need to meet more dogs.

In the catalogue it says 80 to 90 ??? ;)

You can use one or the other, but not both.

You can also try covering the crate with a sheet or blanket, the minute she's quiet, remove the cover, if she starts to play up cover again. I'm sure you know but consistency is the key, she needs to learn that barking doesn't get her the things she wants. This link should help heaps. http://www.clickerdogs.com/crate_games.php

Thankyou.

Nice work Pax How old is your dog and do you train with Steve Davies?? Yes and she's three. Forgot to say I always enjoy watching your dogs.

I just puppy sat a working line Mal pup for six weeks, she was like a Kelpie on speed....no thanks. She was devine in every way but way to full on for me and my multi dog family, my dogs hated her. If I could have her as an only dog I would fo begged the owner to leave her here, but too much for the Pax pack.

DD, you might like this. This is Jo Hill training a yong Mal pup in outer heel work. http://www.youtube.com/user/kooldobe#p/f/13/EDdgzLXQv2o