minyvlz

Dude. This is the quote I was referring to: You are saying that since bones is not fibre and grains and vegetables are, and that without feeding these grains and vegetables, you will end up with a constipated dog. I'm just saying that this is not the case for my dogs, or most dogs on a proper PMR diet. Why not you find the papers to back up your words?

it is fibre in the carnivore sense, not in the human sense. it helps move stool out of the body. also, i'm not saying anything about popularity, just that what you said about dogs having no vegetables in their diet will suffer from constipation is wrong. Nutrition 101 - an excess of fibre leads to flatulence and loose stools, not constipation. Why? Because its largely indigestible and also stimulates the gut. Based on your own observation, you've just disproven your assertion that bones are fibre. Some of the diets fed by people around the world defy basic nutritional concepts - and popularity is no test of a good diet for any species.

Exactly, too much bone will lead to constipation hence never ever feed more than 10-15%, and certainly not bones with meat at every meal. Too many bones lead to constipation and too few lead to soft stools because it acts said fibre. Bone is pooped out too, you can actually see them under a microscope. Given the number of vets that actually support raw I am not inclined to listen to any of them for feeding advice. Haredown: you should ask my dogs and the vast number of dogs in the world that are on a prey model diet if they have constipation. I have been feeding my dogs pmr for more than a year and they get regular bowel movements :) my itchy westie has also stopped scratching since eliminating the veggies. Which is why VAN for instance contains whole cereal. Not for the nutritional value, but for the cleanout value. I wish I had a dollar for every dog I've seen that has gorged itself on bones and ended up crapping out absolutely rock solid white rabbit pellets...that is of course IF they are able to crap anything out at all!!!!!

green tripe isn't really green though :) more brownish? yep it is the stomach lining. bone acts as "fibre", and so does connective tissue like gristle and sinew. it is the fibre that provides some impetus to move poops out of the dog and helps to express anal glands. ETA: wild wolves and canines often starve to death and do not receive the same health care that domestic dogs do. nonetheless, humans have not adjusted or evolved the dog's digestive tract or teeth structure in any way. addition of vegetable matter will mean the dog gets its vitamins from vegetables, instead of from highly-bioavailable animal parts. not to mention that a lot of carbs (pumpkin, potato) and vegetables humans add can be inflammatory and fattening when they're of no use to a carnivore.

Funny though, how so many dogs and cats love green tripe! ..but IMO as dogs/cats do not eat the stomach contents ..this doesn't benefit them when given whole carcasses of,say ,rabbit about all that's left is the little stomach etc many years ago, in lean times when we used to feed the stomach and intestines of sheep butchered for our use, to dogs..they had to be washed well , or the dogs would not touch them ..or any other bits where stomach contents had been spilled .

Please read this before making your decision: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf I would have neutered if my boy's testicle did not drop (and stay dropped) by 1 year of age. I did not have my boys done, but I did do blood work before exporting them just for a guide. 2 years is quite young and should still be able to cope without IV fluids. It all depends on your level of comfort. It's a simple operation for boys; recovery time for my friend's dog that lived with me when he got desexed was pretty good even without fluids. Same goes for my female kitten that was done at 6 months.

This is essentially what the prey model raw is, except we believe that wolves do not consume the stomach contents of prey so we do not add vegetables in any form. Wolves are carnivores and so are dogs.

It really depends on your formula isn't it? I feed prey model so I feed only 10% bone and 80% meat, so that is a lot of meat off the bone. Are there any studies to show how much bone/calcium a growing puppy actually needs, since the disparity is so large? Genuinely interested, thanks in advance! On the other hand, constant imbalance is hardly ideal. The calcium/phosphorus ration in a growing pup NEEDS to be balanced. Too much meat off the bone will not be balanced by a couple of chicken wings every other day. Simple solution - don't feed meat without bone :)

I wouldn't worry about the calcium source everyday. Balance is over time not over a meal or a day.

i feed lots of pork bones and never feed any beef bones, especially marrow bones.

Then keep up the raw and the wings a few times a week. Add a few pieces of liver and kidney and take out the yoghurt and cottage cheese. I think pork is fine and I feed it often with no issues.

Mts, I think feeding raw is good and I think your Missy knows exactly what is good for her. Start slow and adhere to a simple menu and she will be fine. Raw isn't too difficult or expensive, but make sure you do it right. If you want to stick with kibble, what about grain-free options like totw or canidae?

The mix looks fine to me. My dogs' diet consists of mainly pork, lamb and beef. Don't understand why people have to be so harsh.

Thanks for that VAN! Good to know :) I have a dehydrator and buy the Asian thinly sliced shabu-shabu meats for crunchy treats. A little hard to source things like shark cartilage though :laugh:

I've bought the polar paws treats many times and my lot love them. Also tuna treats from greenpet. I've heard people say that puppies shouldn't have shark cartilage, any reason or truth to this?

Hmm I don't feed my cat BH but I do feed mice regularly and her poo never ever smell.

Anyone heard of this product? http://www.petprotector.us/ I live in an area where brown ticks are abundant (other kinds not so much) and I was wondering if this would help keep them at bay. This reminded me of Shoo Tag and I'm not sure which one to pick, or if I should even try either. I've moved overseas and only Frontline is available here, and at a high price too.

yeah, have read things about microwaves altering the molecular structure and cooking from inside. i feed frozen or defrost in the fridge.

I've tried the one at Greencross Varsity and the one by Craig Murray (there are multiple locations) and I have to say I prefer Craig Murray's. I'm not an expert though. In all honesty the classes were basically educating the owner more than anything else, so if I had another puppy I would not go to puppy school.

When I got him (8 weeks) both ears were floppy and the vet said they'd never stand, but around 3 months both ears were erect until he was 5 months. At 6 months it was back to one up one down. They finally stayed up at around 7-8 months. This is when he had two floppy ears: One ear up the other down: Both ears up: after grooming (where another Westie owner thought he was a chihuahua ) now at 1.5 years I didn't really care whether his ears stood or not - actually I thought it was much cuter with only one erect ear. Though I've heard that the erect ear gene is a dominant one and am not sure how true that is.

certainly new to me I did not suggest they are dogs, but they're in the same family as wolves, coyotes and jackals. the point I was trying to make is that I believe that dogs and foxes although primarily carnivorous, are opportunistic feeders, if they come across ripe blackberries they might eat them, if they come across windfall fruit, they might eat it and in the case of my own dogs they eat lots of leafy green plants they find on their daily walks. What was I supposed to make of your post? You said plainly foxes eat fruit. Yet they are of a different species altogether. How was I to know what you were making of it? I think we can all agree that dogs are opportunistic feeders; what was the need for foxes to come into the picture? Since they are opportunistic feeders, there is no need to supplement with fruits and vegetables. Besides they do not have the ability to digest most of it anyway. As I said, some dogs will eat anything. Doesn't mean we have to include rotting carcasses and soiled baby diapers in their diet.

"But what people need to understand is that while on the outside dogs and cats have been domesticated into cuddly pets, inside a dog is 99 per cent related to the wolf, while a pet cat's digestive system is no different from a wild lion's." - Dr Roger Meacock. Dogs have the same teeth structure, digestive tracts and 99% similar DNA as wolves which are carnivores. They are merely domesticated wolves. Studies find that the one closest to the Canis familiaris (dog) is the Canis lupus, or the gray wolf. They have nothing to do with foxes. Foxes and dogs belong to the same family Canidae, but are a whole different species with different physiology and anatomy, and also different set of teeth. From the link you provided, it also says "Its next closest relatives are other foxes in different genera, such as the Arctic fox (Alopex lagopus) and Azara's fox (Dusicyon gymnocercus). It is more distantly related to other canids such as the grey wolf (Canis lupus) and African hunting dog (Lycaon pictus)." Dogs are wolves not foxes.

I think the thought of dogs just eating meat is very primal....dogs have access to every food under the sun now... back in the day im not so sure they had ready access to carrots and pears :) meat would be the only thing running around.... I think this thread confirms that dogs like fruits and veggies a lot more then we do!! Dr.Ian Billinghurst, who wrote "Give Your Dog A Bone", says that wild dogs would consume the stomach contents of their kills, thus getting vegetables. As does Dr Bruce Syme of VAN. Yet there are also many wolf and canine experts that state that dogs/wolves leave the vegetation in their stomach and intestines alone. To each his own, but I would be inclined to believe the latter. I had a bitch who was an inveterate rabbit hunter & I can assure you that she ate the WHOLE rabbit, stomach contents & all My dogs (and cat) eat whole prey too, with my cat eating up to 70% whole prey these days. Usually the smaller prey animals will be eaten whole, like the mice, quail, chicks and rats my kitten gets. My dogs leave the stomach and intestines of whole prey for me to clear up. Sometimes they eat them, but they don't usually do. Rabbits will usually be eaten whole by wolves, unlike larger prey like cows and sheep. I agree that wolves and dogs in the past wouldn't have gotten such a variety of diet. That's precisely what the prey model is trying to replicate. Dogs are opportunistic hunters, so they will eat poop, someone else's garbage and gorge on grass until they vomit. Doesn't mean that they need poop in their diet do they. Perhaps try finding videos of wolves where they show them shaking out the vegetation before consuming the stomach. There are plenty. Because we all know dogs are foxes now. That's a new one.

I think the thought of dogs just eating meat is very primal....dogs have access to every food under the sun now... back in the day im not so sure they had ready access to carrots and pears :) meat would be the only thing running around.... I think this thread confirms that dogs like fruits and veggies a lot more then we do!! It is primal as it's supposed to be :) Not sure how back in the day you're referring to but I'm pretty sure fruit trees existed then too. I think the thought of dogs just eating meat is very primal....dogs have access to every food under the sun now... back in the day im not so sure they had ready access to carrots and pears :) meat would be the only thing running around.... I think this thread confirms that dogs like fruits and veggies a lot more then we do!! Dr.Ian Billinghurst, who wrote "Give Your Dog A Bone", says that wild dogs would consume the stomach contents of their kills, thus getting vegetables. As does Dr Bruce Syme of VAN. Yet there are also many wolf and canine experts that state that dogs/wolves leave the vegetation in their stomach and intestines alone. To each his own, but I would be inclined to believe the latter. I don't think vegs and fruits are bad, in fact I think they are harmless snacks. I just don't think it's necessary to judge what people choose to feed their dogs. Even if there was free access to vegs and fruits and wild dogs ate them, they wouldn't properly digest the nutrients either as they are not blended or ground to a pulp.

My dogs and cat are on a prey diet, and yes it is meat only. I originally put them on VAN, barf etc but they plain and simple do not like veggies or fruits. So it makes things easier for me and for them. I have offered them fruits and veggies several times and they either spit them out or reject them outright. This thread says that many dogs like fruits and veg but it certainly does not prove anything.