Annie99

Actually there is heaps of stuff on the net about dodgy puppy farmers including pictures, and they are named. It is just not in one place and takes some time to find. I know of several in Australia - and these same ones have glossy websites showing the great conditions the dogs live in. Yet when raids occur it paints a somewhat different picture.

How long would you wait for a Registered puppy from your chosen breeder? How about I WANT IT NOW!!???? I go on a cat forum and breeders often complain that people want the kitten now, and early, and even pull out at the last moment cause they get one elsewhere. We are a society that wants INSTANT gratification, unfortunately

+1 And that's the truth. And when I want a puppy, I don't want to have to spend time (that I often don't have) and effort as though I was undertaking some sort of degree to be able to sift through the good, the bad and the ugly. What I went through was enough, it shouldn't be like a full time job. Exactly That is what I and others have been trying to say. If the good ones need a degree to find them and the bad ones pretend to be good why not start a site with the known bad ones?? There is info all over the net on the bad ones, but it takes ages to find it all. It all needs to be in one place.

A website needs to be started with all the info in one place. And puppy farmers named. And it explained what a puppy farm is And started by someone with no assets and no cash as I am sure the puppy farmers would be bullies who would try to sue for defamation - even though truth is a defence.

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type. The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we. the third part is also being done now. Great! That's a pity about the second part. Makes it easier for new people to find a breeder if they're all listed on line. I figure lots of people get suckered in by flash websites from puppy farmers & unscrupulous breeders, such websites are marketing tools that make these breeders look professional & friendly & make them seem really approachable - pity you can't fight fire with fire by doing the same thing. Exactly what I think as well. ;) ;)

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type. The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we. the third part is also being done now. Still can't understand why 2 is a problem. People make snide remarks etc about everyone/everything. If you are confident and strong in yourself such remarks do not matter. It is showing a lack of transparency not showing breeder lists

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association. Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are? Which then brings us back to the question of how does one find a good breeder, doesn't it. And really, do you actually know the practices of each of those 330 members? How would you recommend one breeder over another? Exactly. And what does a Registered breeder really mean?

I don't see why they all don't have public listings. Just because you are a public listing does not mean you have pups or are advertising. It is just a public list of members. I am a member of organisations and the lists are public. I have nothing to hide. And just because you are on a public list does not mean people are going to ring you day and night or bombard you with emails. It is just a public list. That is all. Public lists are not the same as advertising

There are laws, we may not think them well enough enforced or comprehensive enough, but there are laws. Better enforcement of the exisiting laws would probably achieve a great deal. And dog bodies/canine councils are not necessarily in disarray. They are just not constituted for the purposes you would like them to be. Canine bodies are not regulatory bodies, they are more the the equivalent of sporting or, for the non-ANKC bodies, industry associations. I am not saying there isn't a problem - there are several different problems which all get muddled together in these threads - but generalisations that are wrong only cloud the issues. Hi Diva Can you please point me to the laws that protect puppies in Puppy Farms in Victoria specifically? Thank you I have done a lot of research into the issue and all the states are regulated differently.

Agree. Good Luck Puggerup.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct? If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them? 'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?' If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association. Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are? OK Well as you would all know from my post yesterday, I am new to all of this. What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere?? Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list. Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not In the end, I really pity the poor dogs, esp those who spit out puppies until they can no more, with no laws to protect them and dog bodies/canine councils seemingly in disarray.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. I felt sorry for Annie who had a clear idea of what the term meant and got clobbered - could have been worse she may have purchased the dog and probably would have if she didnt at least have a general idea of what she felt was behaviour from the breeder she didnt want to shop with. Don't worry Steve. I really had no intention of purchasing the puppy. I am a strong believer and supporter of the efforts of OSCARS LAW (despite being subjected to some rather nasty politics) and also the RSPCA campaign to stop puppy farms. I thought that as a REGISTERED BREEDER (sorry for caps, I know you know I use them for emphasis) I could expose her for what she was doing and therefore she could not say that she is a Registered breeder - or try and ride on the good name of that. I have made Oscars Law mob aware of the breeder so that is another one they can add to their very long list. There was much in the discussion I had with the woman to suggest she was very dodgy and definitley not acting in the best interests of the pups. I will PM you a link to her site, Steve.

There may be a section of the community that don't care but others do care. And for those that do care, it should be made simpler, much simpler!

Yes. I very much agree with this Steve. I think some people do try but it is just way too complicated. Especially for working people who are time poor. Also the pet shops have slick sites and tell people that everything they are doing is legal (never mind the ethics of what they are doing) ETHICS AND LEGALATIES are not the same. Not shouting Steve either (you are right I use CAPs for emphasis). I prefer it if people do it. Easier to get the point

The one I rang today about the puppy in the paper could not have cared less about the home I was giving it when I rang. Only interested in the $$$. Also advertises on the net. Could not care less about the buyer, just the cash.

It is hard enough to tell you apart now, which was very evident from the other thread

And the way to do that is to distinguish yourself from them by your words and actions. Not by flashy websites, by knowledge, care for your breed, knowledge of your breed, consideration and duty of care to any prospective buyers, and ongoing service and consideration. Why is it that the pet industry is worth billions every year? Great that people go to you, but plenty of people are impressed by flashy websites. Why else would byb/puppy farmers use them? And why else have hundreds of dogs if there is not big $$$$ to be made. Many are sold off the web and many also go overseas.

You're right. It is used for emphasis which is pretty obvious. Have fun with the thread. I can't be bothered. And I can assure you if I was a registered breeder doing the right thing I would want to be part of an org which was not associated IN ANY WAY with puppy farms or Byb's. I would be working very hard to make sure that I could distinguish myself as the breeder doing the right thing by dogs and pups from Puppy farmers/bybs

The word REGISTERED has been well and truly hyjacked.

So yes Steve, you do NEED to change the language. I have rung so many Pets Paradise stores and when you ask them who they get their pups from they say BREEDERS. And I say what sort of breeders?? and they say REGISTERED breeders So the big question is what is a REGISTERED breeder?? cause there are lots trying to pretend they have good names when they don't.

Here is my solution to the problem. SCRAP all the dog bodies, councils etc, and make one body (or one that has the same ethics in every state) You could call it REGISTERED BREEDERS - NOT PUPPY FARMERS OR BYB SCUM. One of the ETHICS/CODE OF CONDUCT or whatever you want to call it is 1 LIMIT THE NUMBER OF DOGS (NONE OF THESE BIG 100 PLUS establishments) 2 PURE BREDS ONLY 3 MAKE A WEBSITE FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO VIOLATE THE TERMS AND A CONDITION OF JOINING IS THAT YOU ARE PUBLICALLY PUT ON THE WEBSITE That would be very easy for the average pup buyer to understand. So it would be simple. REGISTERED REPUTABLE breeders vs Puppy Farm scum So you are with one or the other. The problem as I see it is that some "so called" reputable breeders end up being puppy farmers. The governing councils need to get serious and put DOGS first

Agree with this. More people are caught up with money, politics and ego to really care about the poor puppies. That is how I see it.

I really don't think that Joe Average will give two hoots about a registry's COE Joe Average wants a pup, he wants it now, and he doesn't want papers because he has no plans to breed or show. I think that a lot of people are interested, but it gets put in the too hard basket because as you say, they want a pup and they want it now. I was thinking that a website could be a good idea, not hosted by any of these registering bodies, just something in plain English. If, when Joe Average goes to google and types in 'puppies australia' and a site comes up with general information about this kind of stuff, would that help? It can't be something that is swayed in one direction, it cannot really promote purebred dogs, it would just have to give facts. How to get the site to show up high in search results is a different matter entirely! For example, a diet/care sheet is required in a few of these bodies. I am thinking that something along the lines of... "A breeder should provide you with information about what food your puppy is currently being given. It is important to give your puppy a nutritious diet to ensure that it grows properly. A sudden change in diet can cause an upset stomach, so this information is important when you bring your puppy home"... would get the message across better than telling them to go read a COE. Many of the puppy farmers do just that. They are still puppy farmers. It is a way of making them look good. Smoke and Mirrors and a scam

OK went through my computer history and found it Link remeved by Troy as it gives free advertising to the organisation.

Because not all breeders support the MDBA & would prefer not to get involved when there name comes up. It seems a thing of late to be promoting the MDBA in DOL like some elite group when infact it isn't & i find it misleading .There are many wonderful ANKC breeders who do wonderful things & are just as ethical if not more yep flame suit on so shoot me Well I posted that other thread as I thought I could do something about a puppy farmer or byb and I thought if they were registerd I could report them and get them UNREGISTERED. NOT SO. It seems. I am coping all useful comments in this thread to word in case this one gets pulled too