Annie99

That is exactly what has been happening for many, many years. Some people are passionate REAL dog lovers and will risk trespass charges and criminal record to protect and bring awareness of puppy farms http://www.prisonersforprofit.org.au/?p=385 So only activists are real dog lovers? Question: are you kind of new to all this stuff? I'm reading 'convert' of some sort from your posts. No not all activists are the only dog lovers at all. But they have got real balls to go and get punched in the head to expose the cruelty of puppy farms. I know it is political and there are some nutters in the activists but overall I think they have balls and I take my hat off to people who are in my opinion, incredibly brave. I an a convert to being VERY anti puppy farms and BYB. As i said previously, I abhore puppies and kittens being used as commodities with no concern for their welfare (or that of breeding females)

That is exactly what has been happening for many, many years. Some people are passionate REAL dog lovers and will risk trespass charges and criminal record to protect and bring awareness of puppy farms http://www.prisonersforprofit.org.au/?p=385

Nice to meet you Queen of Sheeba

How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them just because something is allowed does not mean people take advantage of it, I'd wager most ANKC breeders don't sell to PIAA petshops due to their own personal ethics, they too then have have one less point of sale. Well if i was part of a reputable org/assn SAY ANKC where some members sold to pet shops I would LEAVE - that simple! And I would join an org/assn that did not do it. So there could be NO confusion. That simple.

This is what caused the original problem.Annie became aware of a breeder who told her they were registered and she assumed that meant ANKC registered - they werent.They were registered with another group and as a result what Annie thought they were dong which was breaching what she thought the ANKC code of conduct was they were perfectly able to do. Obvioulsy it got heated and was deleted but it was caused by the fact that like you she thought a registered breeder meant ANKC registered breeder and it didnt. Actually the whole point was that she said she was a registered breeder. She told me AWPDB (or something like that). I thought purebred breeders were not supposed to be puppy farmers/bybs. Her site was sus. Did not even have her name on it. That was the confusion. The word REGISTERED made me think there was some sort of ethics/code of conduct and my belief she was breaching the code. And I was going to dob her in, but found out nothing I could do.

How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. Sounds like MDBA has higher ethics to me. Not selling to pet shops = Have you actually read what the Code of ethics are????? Yep!

If the org that say no to pet shop selling ever finds out about it, then there might be consequences. Whose going to tell them? Not the person being unethical, that's for sure. i agree with you rebanne but for me it's about the ethos of the organisation and what the organisation sees as acceptable rather than whether the members are 100% compliant Agree

How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. Sounds like MDBA has higher ethics to me. Not selling to pet shops =

Annie just remember one thing the MDBA are happy to accept ANKC members & hold dual membership so whose COE do they follow? If that aspect is important to you then surely you would want them to be an MDBA breeder only then?? No, but if one says they can't sell to pets shops then that is what they should not do. It does not matter if they are part of one org/assn or 10, if one says you can't do it, you can't do it. Simple!

The MDBA don't allow their members to sell to pet shops. Doesn't mean it doesn't/couldn't happen. The world is not that simple. As I sit here typing this I could have a small fluffy, mated to the small fluffy down the road, whelping in the spare bedroom, cause I knew I would be broke after Christmas. A quick sale to the petshop pays the credit card bill I ran up buying Chrissie presents. Who's to know? Really? eta extra word Surely if someone found out then you could be struck off from that organisation/association? Not good if people break rules or codes of conduct they have agreed to.

That is interesting as I though Pet Shops were not allowed to sell purebred registered puppies. That is what I have been told by Pets Paradise and other shops

ha ha ha I have. And asked who the breeders are??? and I get told that "breeders discretion" stops them from telling me who they are. Also they tell me the parents of the pups are purebreds with papers..... but like i say, more confusion and deception..... and the parents might be but that doesn't mean ankc breeders are supplying the pet shop. i could have a dog and a bitch on main or limited register and i could breed them and sell them to a pet shop and what they have said is true...doesn't make me an ankc breeder does it? All I am saying is that from a consumers point of view it is very confusing to get any sort of information from the pet shops and the term Registered Breeder is bandied around a lot

I think MDBA seems to be the best from what I have read on here and researched today MDBA don't sell to pet shops =

ha ha ha I have. And asked who the breeders are??? and I get told that "breeders discretion" stops them from telling me who they are. Also they tell me the parents of the pups are purebreds with papers..... but like i say, more confusion and deception.....

I have just responded to that earlier Steve. I think we responded at the same time

not sure unless it is a voluntary restriction, ie agreement by breeders not to engage in that activity and ramifications by the organisation if they breach their voluntary agreement? Can someone tell me if this is right ANKC - sells to pet shop MDBA - does not sell to pet shops If that is the case, I will go with MDBA So you would rather support the MDBA who will allow it's members to breed cross breed dogs?? I would support who ever does not sell to pet shops. And the other ANKC allows cross breed dogs. How else do the pet shops get them? I've rung SO MANY MANY PETS PARADISE stores and ask who they get puppies from and they say BREEDERS. And I say, what sort of breeders, and they say registered breeders....................and the cycle of confusion and deception continues.

Thanks for that clarification. So therefore, like it or not, ANKC is supporting puppy farmers - or at best allowing them to be part of their group. I would not call a group that supports sale of pups to pet shops reputable. Annie - you have claimed elsewhere to have a legal background/ training - surely then you are familiar with the Trade Practices Act and the concepts of exclusive dealing and anti-competitive behaviour. I am curious though - what involvement do you have with the dog world? Are you a dog owner? Very good questions. I will send you a PM actually i am curious about these questions as well, maybe you could let us all know the answers Prefer to restrict it to people who I have had respectful dialog with. If it gets shared so be it.

Numerous people have PM'ed me to ignore you but I will break the rule just this once. I am concerned when people treat animals as commodities with little or no concern about the home they go to (ie impulse buy in pet shops) or the welfare of the breeding females, dogs being mass farmed in conditions that have no concern for their physical and mental state. So I am I have been an animal lover since I was born and love all animals and it upsets me when I see suffering of animals/cruelty to animals/laws that don't protect animals/animals natural environment being destroyed (oratatangs in Bornio - sorry for spelling), dancing bears etc etc

Thanks for that clarification. So therefore, like it or not, ANKC is supporting puppy farmers - or at best allowing them to be part of their group. I would not call a group that supports sale of pups to pet shops reputable. Annie - you have claimed elsewhere to have a legal background/ training - surely then you are familiar with the Trade Practices Act and the concepts of exclusive dealing and anti-competitive behaviour. I am curious though - what involvement do you have with the dog world? Are you a dog owner? Very good questions. I will send you a PM

Hmmm. Not sure if I would call puppy farmers hobby breeders. But I know some cat breeders who have over 30 female cats and call it a "hobby" as well. Hmmmm. More and more confusing. A very tangled web that has been woven.

Thanks for that clarification. So therefore, like it or not, ANKC is supporting puppy farmers - or at best allowing them to be part of their group. I would not call a group that supports sale of pups to pet shops reputable. No this is not true. more accurately is that the ankc allows its members to sell puppies to pet shops. Hmmmmmm. well the waters get murkier and murkier, it seems.

As Steve explained it once, the ANKC under the fair trading laws, as simply a registry, cannot prevent someone selling a dog to anyone. The MDBA can because it is a private company. Yes. But to be part of the registry you have to abide by codes/ethics and if the codes/ethics allow puppy farmers not worth the piece of paper written on or website on or whatever. Have I got that right? Change the code/ethics to prevent puppy farmers. If they are caught they get kicked off. Oh, I forgot that would involve lots of loss of $$$$$$ (billions in fact). Am I right or wrong?

Thanks for that clarification. So therefore, like it or not, ANKC is supporting puppy farmers - or at best allowing them to be part of their group. I would not call a group that supports sale of pups to pet shops reputable.

not sure unless it is a voluntary restriction, ie agreement by breeders not to engage in that activity and ramifications by the organisation if they breach their voluntary agreement? Can someone tell me if this is right ANKC - sells to pet shop MDBA - does not sell to pet shops If that is the case, I will go with MDBA

Um those COE are no more special than what ANKC members already abide by Dogs NSW - Members can and do breed cross bred dogs as long as they are not registered purebreds and they can sell to export agents and pet shops if they are PIAA accredited. A Member shall not knowingly permit any of that Member's pure bred dogs to be mated to adog of a different breed, to a cross-bred dog, or to any unregistered dog of the same breed or to a dog not on the Main Register unless:- i) such mating is for the health, welfare and/or the development of a breed or an aspect thereof, and ii) The member has obtained the prior approval of the Board of Directors. The prohibition against crossbreeding contained in this clause shall not apply to guide and working dogs. 12/08 A Member shall not: (a) sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA). (05/05) (b) allow a dog owned by that member to be given as a prize or donation in a contest of any kind. (10/03) Ok. Like I have said heaps of times I am new to all of this but surely selling to PIAA cannot be a good thing!!!????? I have heard PIAA is the org that supports the pet shops and therefore puppy farmers????