Leelaa17

How are the animals suffering and how is this barbaric? There is no difference with what happens in this situation to what happens when your pets go in for surgery, except what whilst already asleep, they are given an injection which sends them to heaven. I take offence to your comments saying vets are desensitised to the suffering of animals in their training. If you read some of the previous posts, you'll see that Vets have one of the highest rates of suicide compared to other professions. This doesn't sound like a group of people who are desensitised. I have not met one Vet who enjoys euthanasia. All the vets I've known and/or worked with take great joy in fixing an animal and seeing it go home. I've been nursing for 6+ years now and have witnessed many many euthanasias and am by no means desensitised - in fact, it's the opposite for me and I can't remember the last time I didn't get upset having to do it. The idea of using rescue animals is all good and well, but that would mostly just be for the routine desexing surgeries. But there are other things that are done (well, they were when my boss went through), such as spleen removals, cruciate repairs, amputation, fixing a deep chest wound etc etc. They can also see the effects of an animal too deep under GA and learn how to correct it. Obviously there will still always be their first surgery on someone's pet, but I'm sure knowing they have done the procedure successfully before, during Uni, will give them greater confidence, as well as the owner. When my rabbit was put down, there were two nurses in the same room as me. They were so lovely and kind to me, but also extremely professional. They let me scream and cry and snot everywhere. They let me sit and cuddle with my rabbit, they got me water and just left me to my own devices. They were extremely gentle with Bunny and were so sensitive when sending him over the rainbow. They looked for a heartbeat and one of the girls said "i can't find a heartbeat' and just gave me a sad smile. I have no doubt in my mind that it was hard for them. I could see it in their face. But they deal with this on a day-to-day basis, especially at an after hours emergency vet. After I had calmed down, they were talking and laughing, but I didn't take offense to this because I am sure that to stop being sad about something, you need to try and move on and be ready for the next thing that happens. I went in one morning to my vet to get Jenna's last vaccination, this was about 9.30am in the morning. There had already been two deaths. my vet came in with a sad smile and said 'it's already a bad day'. I commend anyone who works in the veterinary industry. They see a lot more than any of us laypeople do. I have never and will never think 99.9% of vet nurses/surgeons are desensitised... but I do think they try the best they can to move past one sh*tty situation and try to make the best of the next situation.

Wow. I hope your friends and friends doggies are ok. This is a completely dodgey situation. Let us know how it all goes??

I have two GSD and get the looks when walking. Just recently on facebook one of my friends said she was charged by two 'german shepherds' (she spelt it completely wrong though) and then satus after status people kept asking her what happened and she kept repeating that it was 'two german shepherds' (btw they aren't mine, she lives about 4 hours away! )... I got quite frustrated because it is people like this that blatantly point out the breed that attacked them that get the horrible names. I understand people are curious and I would've have minded if she had said it... maybe... twice? But I swear to God she repeated it for about 2 days over and over again, I counted maybe 10 'attacked by two german shepherds'?? Very frustrating. It isn't the breed, it is the owner. Bugger what anyone else thinks - if you love your babies, it doesn't matter. Try and do the best by them and you will have a happy and well trained dog!!!

I know. I pm'ed Julzjc just letting them know we were all thinking about them, but no news yet. Really hoping they're alright.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story. wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis? They don't really know. I personally think it's partly because it's a stressful degree and sometimes a stressful career (you see some terrible things, you keep some terrible hours if you're rostered on call, & the money isn't always all that great either). But I mostly think it's because we know how to put things down. A vet that wants to kill themselves gets the job done quickly and successfully. Sorry for the macabre OT. yes sorry for the OT - was just curious. thanks staranais! It is a sad truth I guess. Every career has their 'generalisations', like all journalists are alcoholics and smokers... I've got the smoking part down, but I'm not a drinker but thank you for that information - sorry again for the OT

LOL and theeeeere you go again. Really, that 'flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart' stuff really wasn't necessary. You can't help yourself can you? lol And I take my hat off to your experience and accreditation's... but that doesn't mean that you have to poo poo people's opinions and make them feel beneath you, because they aren't.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story. wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

I cant think of a single poster who's said that. No, I don't think anyone did either. Those agreeing with the necessity of the practice are not callous or without compassion. Can I just note that I don't think these people, nor have I ever said, that these people are callous or without passion. I just think we all have different views! ETA: I know this post I quoted wasn't to do with me, but I just want everyone to know that I don't think the people I am disagreeing with are bad people at all - just people with different opinions.

You just don't stop do you? Anne was, at least to some extent, sticking up for me. She is not personally attacking you, she is telling you - in my eyes - exactly what you are doing. A lot of your comments are completely uncalled for and unnecessary, especially the words you use. All Anne is trying to say is that you could use different phrases or different words to get your point across, instead of using words that can cause offense (which they did) or that could upset people. And that is you. My OH is the same, he is an extremely logical person and I am an extremely emotional person... and we work perfectly together, and have for the last 5 years. What I am seeing from you is that anyone who is NOT logical, like you, you don't like? You must not like a lot of people then. Jo, there are people out there who are the complete opposite to you and have the complete opposite opinions of you. You need to accept that, and maybe if you gave 'bleeding heart' people a chance, you might learn something from them. Emotional decisions aren't ALWAYS the worst way to make a decision, sometimes completely logical decisions get people into trouble (especially in social situations!).

sometimes they do, blood tests etc don't always show/tell the whole story. Sometimes animals are operated on for a look see. I imagine it's not done as often now as it has been in the past as technology has improved in leaps and bounds. I BEG your pardon? My God. Have I EVER claimed to have ANY idea on vet practices? NO. I will happily say I know absolutely NOTHING about vet practices and what happens etc. I only know what people tell me. And I am extremely lucky to not have any serious illness or injury happen to my pets (although there HAS been injury and illness - just not serious) and I always go into the vet and ask a million questions because I don't know anything about it. I am a journalist. Not a vet. And second of all - I would really like you to show me which comments I have made that are insensitive? That was NEVER my intention. And I don't think ANY of my comments have been insensitive? So I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about? These are your posts saying that you are ignorant of the facts behind vet practices. As a journalist I'd expect that you understand what the definition of ignorant is and not take it as an insult. It has a specific meaning. My objection to people influencing decisions when they are ignorant of the facts stand, it does real damage. Right. Fair enough. I do know what ignorant means, and after comparing the defiition of 'ignorant' and 'unknowing', they are pretty much the same. I guess I see ignorant as being someone who is UNWILLING to learn new things and learn more about the topics they don't know about, and I am always willing to learn new things. Whereas I always considered myself as 'unknowing', in my opinion, simply not know about something - but again, after reading the definition, I realise they are the same thing. So I guess I am ignorant, but I do always try my best to learn new things, especially before I jump into a decision!! But I don't believe I am doing the real world harm by not knowing things, especially when I make the effort to learn! ;)

I've yet to read a report written by any mainstream journalist that provided a balanced, factually based view of an issue that gave equal coverage to all facets of a situation. The report that triggered this thread is a case in point. No offence Leela but if you've seen PTS day at a pound or how poorly some unwanted dogs are warehoused and treated, I wonder why you think allowing veterinary students to hone their craft on live dogs destined to be PTS is so much worse. No offence taken Poodlefan. I'm not talking about vet students operating at all - my previous post was in general, although a little OT, about me 'living in the real world'. I DO NOT think it is worse, AT ALL. I think it is much better... BUT, that doesn't mean I don't like the euthanasia part of it.. I think I am starting to go around in circles... but its not really the vet students etc and the PTS, it is just the PTS I don't like. and yes yes I know that if something were to go wrong it would be bad post-op pain etc but I just... I just don't like it... BUT it doesn't mean that I don't understand why they do it, and it doesnt mean I am condemning them (as my very first post might have seemed) and it doesnt mean I think it is BAD PRACTICE... it just makes me cringe. And if you ever read my reports you will KNOW that I am NOT a mainstream journalist. I am NOT a sensationalist and I refuse to publish anything that doesn't have any of the facts. I HATE shows like Today tonight etc where its all the same sensationalist s**t. I work for local papers, writing about nice community issues and then when the big stuff comes, I make sure it is factual and honest, because that's what the readers, like myself, deserve.

I hope reading the views expressed by vet students here causes those who hold this view to reflect on it a little. I dont need to reflect on how I feel about it Just because I dont agree with something doesnt mean I dont understand it And I read what was written

Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland. True, so true. As Anne said earlier on, I find it quite offensive that you say I am living in 'laalaa land'. I am as aware as anyone else on here of what happens. And how dare you say I am ignorant? I know EXACTLY what happens in the 'real world', I'm a journalist for Christ's sake. I see it all. And, personally, I think you have absolutely NO right to 'pull others up' when they act without facts or emotion, and should I note that I am not 'acting' in any way, shape or form? I am simply expressing my opinion which is different to yours. Grow up. Not everyone has the same opinions as you, and not everyone will agree with you. And THAT IS OK!!!!! People are allowed to have 'bleeding hearts'. And what bull... real world things get screwed up by people living in lala land. What an absolute crock. I think things get screwed up by IGNORANT and IRRESPONSIBLE people, who are UNWILLING to learn more about a subject. Before I do things, I research. However when I have an opinion i would LIKE TO express it freely without being cut down and frankly, INSULTED, by others who have no clue about their experiences, profession and anything else that might be of ANY knowledge to them. Why don't you try and NOT 'pull people up' (I absolutely CANNOT believe you said that...) and actually LET them express their opinions. You don't have to agree with them (I sure as hell don't agree with some of the stuff you say) but you can RESPECT their opinions and their BLEEDING HEARTS and move the eff on. Gosh.

Hi Guys, When would you want the next meet to be?

Really? The service in Australia is friendlier and better than in any other country hubby and I have been to. Our experience is that Aussies complain a lot more than other places too. But I agree, definitely write a complaint. I would. I didn't say Australian service was bad, I said Australian's for some reason do not make complaints....well not to the right people....to each other but not to the company. Have you never worked in retail? ;) I spent 6 months there and grew increasingly annoyed with the people who knew exactly how to complain. Ask for the manager, kick up a stink, they will give you things for free. I would say, "Do we really need their patronage that badly that we reward them every time they make a fuss? We're teaching them to be pains in the butt!" Some people just love to complain. I think Australians complain more than they complement. Some vets I get on better with than others. Some of them that I don't get on so well with are just not in the habit of telling clients what they are doing and why. I'm learning that if I speak up we all get along better and I get the kind of service I want. I think a lot of it is just accepting that different people have different styles and putting in that little extra effort to understand folks you don't automatically get along with. We go to a large clinic and I definitely have my favourite vets there that I ask to see. One of them spent half a consult asking me about my PhD project. I was more than happy to talk about it! She apologised for bringing it up in a consult and explained that she was really interested in research, and I warned her that if she got me going we could be here all night. Fortunately, there was no one booked in after me. My favourite Canberra vet would chat nearly constantly and it was hard to get a word in edge-wise. When you did, he would often start answering your query before you had actually finished making it, so you'd have to ask again because he was going off on a tangent. I sometimes found consults with him a little exhausting, but I didn't mind putting up with his personality quirks because I really liked him as a vet. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're not wrong to be cross about what happened, but some people make faux pas without realising it and a formal complaint maybe isn't necessary. That's just my take on it, though. I'd still avoid going back to that particular vet. oh the glories of retail. Try working in a shop that sells overprices, crappy quality, home products. LOL. lots of complaints. it was ALWAYS fun! I love the vet I go to. They are in Western Sydney and are so fabulous. There are three male vets there and three or four nurses... All of them have been there forever and they all know Max and Jenna and greet us lovely every time we go in (mostly we go in with Max because he is accident prone). And then when we get in they tell me EXACTLY what they are doing and why. For someone as paranoid as me, it is lovely to have them tell me what's going on because I never have any idea! And they explain the drugs to me as well - wehen they say a long name they immediately explain what it is and what it does. It is fantastic. They are also open for me to ask as many questions as I want.

For the right dog from the right breeder? Anywhere in Oz or NZ. same. I think 5 hours isn't much at all! Plus, you get a little holiday while you're at it!

There are many here (including me) who believe that a humane death for a dog is preferable to a miserable life. I appreciate that no one wants to see healthy dogs die. But the facts are that they do and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. If they are going to die and can help other dogs and vets in the process, why object to the process? ;) As I see it, you're focussed on the wrong issue. That's a very fair point. And of course I would rather dogs be in doggy heaven than live a miserable life. I just don't see why they can't live happy lives. Why is it so hard for shelters and everywhere else to make it a happy living situation for them. (That is a rhetorical question). And I guess I am focused on the wrong issue. I am focused on the euthanasia part, not the process part.

They could, if they didn't put the dogs down afterwards. If there were actual problems with the dogs that they could fix. Look I don't know aye? I am simply expressing my opinion that I don't like the practices that lead to the euthanisation of healthy dogs. Well that's a loaded question. Maybe another time.

Why? Because I don't like it. I think it is a waste of life. Why does it matter why I don't like it? I just don't. I think dogs deserve a million chances instead of being put down. I think it is pointless. And most of us feel similar, however the rest of us are just a bit more practical about the issue. Yes, that is true. I am not and will happily admit that. I have no practical ideas on how to stop it, I just know I want it stopped. And that is my prerogative.

I understand that completely and I don't have any practical solutions - I wish I did. I am not 'condemnin' them, at least I am not trying to. But it is in my opinion that they shouldn't be using live dogs to practice on. But I do understand that that is my opinion and am greatly outnumbered on this thread as to what is a suitable method to teach students. Why? Apart from being a better teaching tool, how is it any different to the dog to be PTS before being dissected or going to sleep, being operated on, and then being PTS? Same experience and outcome for the dog? yes it is and perhaps I haven't made myself clear over the many posts on this thread. This really comes down to the fact that I don't agree with euthanasia at all. I hate it. Unless a dog is dying or in serious pain then I don't think it should be done. Again, I say, I don't know what WOULD be done with them if euthanasia was out of the question, but I just don't want it. I cringe at all of this. It's my opinion. I don't like euthanasia. It is the same experience and outcome for the dog. I think the thing I hate about it is the actual outcome, not what happens to get there. Does that make sense? Vet students don't like it either! We don't like seeing animals put to sleep any more than anyone else on this forum. The bodies that are donated aren't sick animals, the majority of the time we are learning on healthy dogs who have been put to sleep because there aren't enough homes for them. So they are euthanised just the same as the live dogs who have been operated on and PTS. I never said they liked it. TBH I think it would harder for them than most. This is getting redundant. They are getting euthanised!!! THAT is what I don't like. For goodness sake. ;)

Why? Because I don't like it. I think it is a waste of life. Why does it matter why I don't like it? I just don't. I think dogs deserve a million chances instead of being put down. I think it is pointless.

I understand that completely and I don't have any practical solutions - I wish I did. I am not 'condemnin' them, at least I am not trying to. But it is in my opinion that they shouldn't be using live dogs to practice on. But I do understand that that is my opinion and am greatly outnumbered on this thread as to what is a suitable method to teach students. Why? Apart from being a better teaching tool, how is it any different to the dog to be PTS before being dissected or going to sleep, being operated on, and then being PTS? Same experience and outcome for the dog? yes it is and perhaps I haven't made myself clear over the many posts on this thread. This really comes down to the fact that I don't agree with euthanasia at all. I hate it. Unless a dog is dying or in serious pain then I don't think it should be done. Again, I say, I don't know what WOULD be done with them if euthanasia was out of the question, but I just don't want it. I cringe at all of this. It's my opinion. I don't like euthanasia. It is the same experience and outcome for the dog. I think the thing I hate about it is the actual outcome, not what happens to get there. Does that make sense?

I understand that completely and I don't have any practical solutions - I wish I did. I am not 'condemnin' them, at least I am not trying to. But it is in my opinion that they shouldn't be using live dogs to practice on. But I do understand that that is my opinion and am greatly outnumbered on this thread as to what is a suitable method to teach students.

Great video!!!! Very good camera work as well!!! I agree - I love the puddle part! very cute video! Made me smile! ;)

I would be a mess also couldnt stop thinking about the puppy and the shar pei last night just got back from a walk and they werent out which is good but i will go back out again tonight. My OH said thats the 3rd time this week that shar pei has been out ;) but the first time the puppy has been out starting to think he just lets them out. If you keep seeing the dogs out (like the Shar Pei) I would go to the owners house and kindly ask what was happening, whether there was sufficient fencing etc or if the dogs were doing crazy things to get out. Being devil's advocate here... if this happens often because the Shar Pei finds new ways every time to get out - they might just be like 'well.. he never goes far so we'll find him' if that makes sense? Sometimes someone will fix one problem and another will present itself, then they wil fix that problem and then ANOTHER problem will come about... these people MAY have that problem where the Shar Pei keeps trying different things to get out. OR... they could just not care... I don't know. lol But I would go and ask if they were having problems keeping the dogs in... if they seem agressive or not fussed about what happens to their dog then I would contact council and see if you have any grounds to report them??