fuzzy82

The headline says the guide dog was killed by pit bulls. It wasn't, it ran into the road and was killed by a car. Of course it shouldn't have happened, it's tragic for everyone involved, but sensationalism is stupid.

Couldn't you just register the dog, pay the extra rego for having an undesexed dog, and then pay less rego next year when the dog is desexed?

If you "knew how to use them" you would understand that there are many different ways of using them than old fashioned positive punishment, "the dog has done wrong so shock it!" mentality, in fact I have never seen one used as a positive punishment. Most of the e collar training that I have seen is to train a dog to repeat a desirable behaviour, not to take an undesireable one and teach the dog not to repeat it. but as I said i have never seen one used as a positive punishment. Also, whilst on the subject of "pain and discomfort" do you not think that most training has a level of discomfort and possible pain (depending on the sensitivity of the animal?) Pain and discomfort can be far more than physical. Just putting an animal under pressure to learn a behaviour for a treat exerts a level of discomfort and yes "pain" albeit mental :) hence why IMO you need to have a strategy to relieve the pressure should you find the animal stuck. An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim. Basically the wrong tool, applied to the wrong dog, in an incorrect manner, and the wrong situation will at best not work, and at worst damage the dogs long term development, alternatively the right tool, applied to the right animal, correctly, in the right situation willl work! The trick is to be open minded enough to know when the tools at your disposal, in this situation are the wrong ones, for the animal your dealing with and consequently the knowledge of what to do is outside of your current knowledge. (please note that this last sentence is not "aimed" at anyone in particular just a general belief that I hold IMO This is also very common, "e-collars hurt, but so does everything else so it's ok". "Everything stresses the dog, so may as well use an e-collar". You've never seen one used as P+? That's weird, because that's how they do snake avoidance training. I know it can also be used as R-, but it's still aversive, that's why it works. To use R- you must first apply P+. I'm not saying I'm against the use of positive punishment or e-collars. Used correctly they're fine. I hate how reward training zealots first say "punishment doesn't work" and then produce some story of this person they saw using a prong collar incorrectly as "proof" that P+ is horrible and useless. And they ALWAYS do, they NEVER use a story where the aversive is being used correctly. I don't understand why you'd use aversives for obedience/sports/everyday manners training though. These things are SO easy to train without any aversives, and the golden rule of dog training says to use the least aversive method possible. But of course now you will tell me that withholding the treat is equally aversive to a low level stim, so I might as well just use an e-collar.

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt". Of course they do, that's how they work. I've seen them used, I know how to use them, they are designed to cause pain and discomfort. Balanced/traditional trainers saying they don't hurt is as ridiculous as reward based training zealots saying "punishment doesn't work" and that's why you shouldn't use it. Positive punishment works because it's aversive to the dog, they don't like it. It's not because the timing is so great that it fixes behaviour, it's because it hurts or causes discomfort, the dog pairs the discomfort/pain with the behaviour and doesn't repeat it.

That sounds like a lack of impulse control to me, which is basically a lack of manners around the house. It would be so easy to teach the dog impulse control instead of resorting to punishment, and impulse control is something all dogs should know because it transfers to other things in their life, like reliable sit/stays, being able to call them away from prey animals, not bolting out the door etc. I have a JRT x. I don't know if you know, but JRT's score the lowest on impulse control out of all dog breeds, and are also known for their high prey drive. Because I have taught him impulse control I can have food on the coffee table and leave to go and get something in the kitchen and he doesn't touch my food (I don't tell him "leave it" as I walk out either) and just the other day I called him off a lizard hunt. And I train completely without the use if positive punishment. Not because I'm against it, but just because I don't see the need for it when training obedience or manners. And it's not like I spend all day every day training the dog to achieve great recall and impulse control. I train a few days a week, but each session is about 5 minutes long. So it doesn't require loads of time and effort to get the dog to this level, it just requires commitment and desire. And of course not everyone are great trainers, and for some people it makes sense to use some punishment for their pet dog, I'd rather see them use some punishment than rehoming the dog, but there's needing to use a little bit of punishment after you've taught the dog what you want using rewards, and there's reaching for an e-collar for something that would be easily fixed without it.

I'm not a spokesperson in any way, but Delta have always made it very clear that they offer a course to teach people how to be pet dog trainers and run a business servicing that area. They never purport to be able to train service dogs, or serious sporting dogs or law enforcement dogs. Unfortunately many many people choose to enter both the Cert IV and the NDTF Cert III having had no experience with dogs whatsoever. So, ethically, Delta recommends that if you have little experience in applying punishers or little experience with aggression in dogs you should refer the dog on - both for the dog's sake and for the legal implications that we all face these days. It would be irresponsible in the extreme (and potentially very dangerous) to teach trainers how to use punishers through a textbook, or a week long intensive. It takes a genuine feel to know how much force to apply and when - for a good result. They may not practically teach all four quadrants but they definitely cover it - I did the assignment. Of course they are method pushers - as are all dog trainers! :laugh: Everyone pushes the method they feel most comfortable with and gains results for the dogs (and handlers) they teach. They teach a method that is safe, humane, acceptable to many dog owners, and fits the majority of pet dogs living a suburban lifestyle. They have never promised to fix all dogs and all problems. :) Great post tollersowned. I don't necessarily have a problem with people using compulsion where appropriate, however I doubt any training course can teach people how to use it and train others to use it effectively given the time taken to do the course. If someone wants to rehabilitate genuinely aggressive dogs, they're going to require a lot more than the Delta or NDFT course. This is true, I did the NDTF course. I've been reading dog training books since I was a kid, and I've done loads of reading after the course, I run my own dog training business, but if someone came to me with a truly aggressive dog, I would refer them someone else. The NDTF course is mostly about learning theory, and how to apply this in real life, and not so much about fixing specific issues. It does go over some basic stuff about fixing common behavioural problems like digging, barking, and also how to train obedience behaviours, but I think if I hadn't done a LOT of research on my own, I would feel in over my head most of the time.

I handed in my last assessments in January this year, by the end of May they had all approved (my deadline was officially the end of April, but they hadn't finished with my assessments by then) and I received my certificate in June this year. I received my first written material + DVD's in April last year, so not sure how you want to count when I finished? If you count finished as in finished doing all my assessments it took 9 months, finished as in getting all the assessments back it took 13 months, and finished as in having received my certificate, it took 14 months. I think I am that other Qld student and if you are who I think you are (from FB?) I agree your video should have been approved and it was more thorough than mine. I agree with a lot of what you have said actually, and I also found the assessors incredibly inconsistent. I also found you had to answer the questions their way, straight from the text and if you put it in your own way or used your own opinion they wouldn't approve it. I had one sent back 3 times because I had put it in my own words even though the answer was the same. I eventually copied the answer from the text and it passed. While I learned a lot from the course, I think some parts were somewhat biased. I haven't done Delta but I think it sounds like it is biased in a different way. Between the two of them, I really wish we had better options in Australia for dog training qualifications. I think the CASI course in Canada looks very thorough and I'd love to do it. You can do it online too so maybe the OP could look into that. A friend of mine is doing their shelter course and its very thorough. To be honest I find it sad that instructors from either course are biased in some way and also sad that there has to be a 'them and us' mentality in dog training. Some NDTF instructors claim to be balanced trainers but spend a lot of their time bashing the 'other side.' I don't think this is balanced. I'm still glad I did the course as I learned a lot and it got me into the industry but I think I would have also been glad to do the Delta course if I had gone that way, but I wouldn't like to fall to an extreme on either side. Yeah, that would be me from FB :) I hope my post wasn't too negative, I did enjoy all the learning theory and watching the DVD's (apart from the really boring ones) and I'm glad I did the course because it was a way to get into the industry.

I did the NDTF course, and I found it biased with regards to training methods. They do go in detail about all the quadrants, but they all seem to prefer the traditional, balanced type of training where you punish the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviour. No mention at all about how you would train using reward based methods, and when I answered some questions on my assessments saying I would use a clicker for certain things I was told I was using the clicker too much, and on an assessment where we were free to choose any obedience behaviour and training method, and to simply write step by step how we would train it, I chose to capture the "down", and the assessor asked "why" I had chosen to capture it. When I asked if I wasn't free to use whatever method I wanted I was told that "ok you can use capturing, but it's unconventional". I found the assessors inefficient. They would always say the expected time for assessments to be returned was 4 weeks, but it always took at least 8 weeks, and on one occasion 6 months. They were also nit-picky. For the obedience assessment mentioned above I chose duration of 1 minute as one of my criteria, and explained in detail how I would train for duration. The assessor's comment was that I should have done 2 minutes, as if it mattered when I had already explained in detail how I would train duration. Another thing was my assistance dog practical assessment. I sent a video of the dog doing the behaviour off leash, but in a low distraction environment. The off leash part was required for the assessment. I also sent another video of me proofing the skill around distractions, but the dog was on leash for it because we were in public. The assessment came back not satisfactory because the dog wasn't off leash AND in a high distraction environment, even though the two videos combined showed that he was able to do it both off leash and around distractions. When I argued they wouldn't budge at all, and I had to re-do the video. I spoke to another student who did the same assistance dog skill, and her video of the dog doing it without any distractions got approved. As for block training (the practical part of the course), I did that here in Qld, and it was ALL about compulsion training, the trainer who instructed us clearly had an issue with reward based methods. The dogs were on check chains the whole time we worked with them, except when we did a half day workshop on luring with a guest instructor. I've heard the block training down in Vic is better. All in all the course was alright, I did learn a lot about learning theory and the science behind dog training, but there were a lot of annoyances too.

Thanks everyone, I guess I need to email them and ask... They are familiar with SG, as they use 2 x 2 for the weaves and crate games. Kavik, we're still in module 2, still working on getting the nose touches right. Have done most of the body awareness though. I realised my mechanics for the nose touches have been off and need to take a few steps back and get a nose touch without scooping. I've also taken a few weeks off from doing much of anything because I started canine freestyle with my oldest dog and I was getting frustrated with the lack of progress with the nose touches, so we needed some time to just work on fun tricks. I'm not sure how I'll go with the low A-frame either, or the seesaw. When I did the beginner's agility with my oldest dog last year she went over the seesaw fine the first time, then started showing more and more hesitation as she realised it would move under her, and only then did the instructor put a box under the end of it, but they still let it tip part way and my dog didn't like it at all. Not really sure how I'll go with that, because beginners, intermediate and advanced all train on the same night at the same time, they just take turns on the equipment, and when the classes are finished it's all put away and people go home. So to be able to do anything I'd need to somehow be able to do my stuff in the few minutes on and off when the equipment isn't being used, which means moving tables in under the seesaw, work for a few minutes, then move the tables away and let a class use it. Meh.

There is only one agility club near me. I did beginner's agility there last year with my oldest dog, just as something fun to do, didn't really know anything about agility at the time. I have since done the Susan Garrett Contact course with my youngest, and I want to start agility classes with him, but the way the club trains is completely different to the SG approach. For example, the club does very little foundation training with the contacts, we did some plank work for two sessions, then straight on all of the equipment, while with SG we would work on foundations for about 10 weeks before seeing any real equipment and then only start with the a-frame; the club does 2o2o without a target, while SG does use a target. The club lets any dog go over the seesaw after 2-3 sessions, then if it shows some hesitation they do a little work on that after it's already doing full equipment, while SG has loads of games to get the dog comfortable with the seesaw before letting it actually tip and expecting the dog to go over it. So the differences are pretty significant. I'm not an experienced handler or anything, so it's sort of hard to tell them I want to do my own thing when they have instructors who have years and years of experience doing it their way. If I'd already won loads doing my own thing it would be a lot easier to say I want to do things my own way.... What would you do?

We do something similar at a training class I do at the agility club. Both my dogs are uncomfortable with it, and the instructor told us to just stay at a distance where they're comfortable. Which is fine with me, both of mine are small, and I'd rather not put them in a big group of cattle dogs and kelpies anyway....

We got a note one time saying our dogs kept barking. As we both work from home and our dogs live inside with us, we knew they were wrong. We went door knocking to find the person who wrote the note, just to let them know it wasn't our dogs so they wouldn't complain to the council, and it then turned out that all of our neighbours got the same note. So maybe the person left the note for everyone because they didn't know whose dogs they were?

Has the vet actually checked what's in his ears? I have a poodle x who had regular ear infections too, treated with antibiotics and just cleaning them out regularly. Then we saw a different vet who actually took a sample and looked at it under the microscope, and it turned out to be yeast, not bacterial. So no wonder the antibiotics didn't work. We got some anti-fungal drops to put in twice a day, and it cleared up pretty quickly.

http://caninecomfortcomau.melbourneitwebsites.com/ is the Aussie supplier for Fitpaws. K9 Pro also sells them though. When I tried to order them from overseas they referred me to the Aussie supplier anyway.

I used the PAW natural something shampoo + conditioner, by Blackmores. What shampoo would you recommend to make clipping easier?

Ok, thanks :) No, I wasn't planning on shaving her :) I did part of her without the comb, and just trimmed the tips, but of course she looks like someone's hacked into her because it was impossible to get it even. So I'll get a longer blade and fix that.

Right, so I'm better off just getting another blade then. I was thinking that's what I'd do. The blade on its own cuts fine, it's only when I put the comb on that it snags. It's a #10 blade. The dog is a poodle x maltese. How do I know which blades will fit my clippers? I was looking at blades at clipperworld when I bought the clippers, but they don't say what clippers they go with, so I ended up not getting any.

They're plastic, in the DVD they were steel though. I brushed her out very thoroughly, but I find that her hair is so thick that even if I can run a brush through without issues, a comb will usually get stuck. Maybe her hair is just too thick? I'm thinking I might be better off just getting a different blade rather than using a guard...

I recently bought clippers to do my own grooming, Wahl KM2 two speed. Tonight was the first time I'd used them, hardly taken them out of the box, so they shouldn't be blunt or lacking oil or anything like that. I detangled the dog, washed her, and let her dry, then brushed her out again. But almost immediately when I started clipping the hair snagged in the guard/comb, it seemed to get pulled in between the blade and the guard, which pulled her skin and it wouldn't unsnag until I turned it off and pulled the guard off. It did this repeatedly, every time I tried to use one of the guards. Without the guards it's fine, but then it's very difficult to get it even. I didn't really want to shave her completely. I watched the instructional DVD again, and the woman there uses a guard and has no issues at all with it. So what are some possible causes for repeatedly snagging?

Last week I met a guy who works with a scent detection dog (he didn't train it, just works with it), and we got talking about malinois. I said something about malinois, and he then referred to them several times as "Belgian malamutes" and told me how he had worked with Belgian malamutes in the army.

This is true, and I honestly don't expect all that much from the classes, other than structure and distractions, and basic advise on how to do the exercises if needed. I don't expect them to provide advanced problem solving, and I wouldn't go to a class if what I really wanted was a solution for a behavioural problem. But for a dog with no particular issues and all you want is for the dog to have some structured training I think the $5 classes are fine.

I wouldn't pay $180 per session for group obedience training. That seems ridiculously expensive. I'm a member of several clubs, both obedience and agility. You have to become a member and renew your membership every year, which is between $20-30, and then there is either a fee per class, which is $5, or there is a fee for the course of 8 or 12 sessions, which is around $80-90 for the course (not per session). At $180 per session I would expect one on one training with a really good trainer.

I don't see what her problem is. Just look the other way and then she wouldn't be offended by the table manners of the person with the pug? And butt out of other people's pet keeping? I wouldn't eat with my dogs on my lap either, and they don't sleep in our bed, but I have no issues at all with people who choose to allow that. It's none of my business and it's not hurting anyone.

Pretty much any dog can do scent detection, they all have superior sense of smell. That's why they don't usually need to specify that the dog has a keen sense, because they all do. The amount of drive in the dog is more important. Usually the dogs work for many hours each day, and in heat and rain etc, so you can't work with a dog that loses interest in earning the reward when it gets a bit difficult. Of course they don't detonate the explosives, they're not gonna put all that time and money into training a dog only to blow it up.

We do go outside several times a day, we go for a walk in the morning, then throughout the day we go outside so they can pee and lie in the sun, and another walk in the evening. They're not wrapped in cotton wool, they just prefer to be inside with me. We also do obedience, DWD and agility, so it's not like they're missing out.