YOLO

Yeah, that’s the problem. If you set out to do things properly and breed healthy happy pups that carry only the best attributes of your breed, you will never make money, and yet people will bitch about the cost. That’s why it seems most responsible breeders really only do it for the love of the breed. Of course if you’re happy to over-breed your substandard bitch with an equally substandard male, and forgo the niceties of hip & elbow scoring, vet services, and raise the pups in some chook-pen out the back, then I guess there may be a few dollars to be made. Unfortunately low-cost pups appeal to “low-cost” owners who won’t care for their dog properly and will dump it at the first sign of trouble. Personally I would rather see a few more dogs coming from quality breeders at a HIGHER price.

That’s why I would recommend a gun-dog, especially a retriever. They are soft-mouthed and generally have excellent temperaments. They are smart and easily trained with a sustained effort.I would not recommend a working dog, as their natural instinct CAN sometimes be to herd young children. Please understand, I have seen Rottweilers with beautiful temperaments that made excellent family pets. The difference is that if something goes wrong and your dog “snaps,” some breeds can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, a retriever generally can’t. However retrievers can be very boisterous if not properly trained, and can remain “big puppies” for most of their lives. They can be easily trained to behave, but if you don’t put the effort into training they could be too much for a small child.

Yes, dilutional hyponatremia can happen to marathon runners who don't rehydrate properly, and has even killed people hiking the Kokoda Trail.It is a combination of too much water and not enough electrolytes. (Eg people who have perspired excessively and only replaced their lost fluids with pure water. Sadly bottled water often exacerbates the problem.) The treatment, not surprisingly, is diuretics to expel the excess water, and electrolytes to replace those lost. May I ask what breed is your dog? Most dogs love the water, but I perhaps “water” breeds are less prone to swallowing water when swimming? Although perhaps it was the freshness of the water that compelled your dog to swallow? Our dog only get to swim in salt water so perhaps they don’t swallow? So glad to hear it was promptly diagnosed, and that she is on the mend.

Agreed. Avoid smaller breeds that might be injured or feel threatened by boisterous children. GSP's are great dogs, but require a lot of exercise. Also the one we had was inclined to be extremely excitable and would nip at the younger kids to keep them in line. Can I emphasise that above all else you need to look for TEMPERAMENT. We had a "designer" mongrel Poodle cross. It was cute as a button, didn't shed, etc, but it turned out to have severe behavioural problems.

I've had 6 kids and a few dogs. My personal favourite is still the flat-coated retreiver, for reasons I think you should look for in any prospective dog with young children. Their temprement is is unbeleivable. They are unfailingly affectionate, love to play and be cuddled. They are almost impossible to anger, will tolerate all kinds of ear-pulling, but will still act protecive of young children (without trying to dominate them.) They have been bred to retreive, with soft mouths, blunt teeth, and weak jaws. (There are many dogs that whilst good with kids, can still do terrible damage if things go wrong.) Golden Retrievers are very similar. One downside is that their need for companionship is almost constant, and if left alone they will become destructive and start digging up your plants.

At the risk of repeating myself, my personal situation is not the issue. If my daughter is serious about getting involved in showing, we will work something out. (I’m not even sure that a Flattie pup would be a good starter..) If, down the track our bitch was deemed suitable for breeding and we were interested in that (and those are two big Ifs) then I’m sure her breeder would assess her.

Definitely would NOT recommend a Basenji. Boston Terrier would seem to tick most of the boxes, but I’ve never seen them advertised. My favourite of all small breeds is the West Highland Terrier. I think a Westie would fit the bill, except their coat does require moderate grooming and the occasional trim. Not sure about moulting?? A 10 year old would probably enjoy grooming a Westie…

Hi All, It wasn’t intended as a whinge about my personal situation, that was for illustrative purposes only. I’m asking a philosophical question as to whether the Limited Register is having the desired effect, or perhaps having unintended consequences? I certainly didn’t wish to convey a direct criticism of either Breeder. They could represent breeders of any breed.

But I just can't do it, still can't stnad to think about in that way, maybe later. Love you Coco.

I can’t help but wonder if the LR has unintended negative consequences??? It’s my opinion that Puppy Mills, BYBs, and unethical breeders continue to thrive because of the high demand for pets that is not being met by Ethical Registered Breeders. So you would think that the LR would help this situation, but I’m not so sure… I literally have a choice of two breeders: Breeder A is considered by some to be unethical, and whilst they claim to have all the Hip & Eyes scores, etc, they are slow to produce them. Yet most of their pups are sold on the MR. Breeder B is more expensive, and puts ALL their pups on the LR. The Sire & Dam are beautiful champions, with perfect scores. So here’s my point: I want to do “the right” thing, so I won’t buy from Breeder A. I’m not buying with the intention of breeding (Jasper is neutered) and if I did want to breed in the future, it would only be if our bitch had perfect scores, met the breed standard, and we could find a perfect stud for her. Yet I am restricted from even showing our dog if I buy from Breeder B. A person who wanted to do “the WRONG thing” would buy a flawed dog from Breeder A and breed it without regard to scores or breed standards. So I wonder if the LR isn’t yet another measure that penalises responsible owners and actually encourages irresponsible behaviour? Looking at it another way, I believe 100% that only dogs with clear scores, who conform to the basic breed standard, should be allowed to breed and have their pups registered. But shouldn’t that be an objective test, rather than an arbitrary decision made by a breeder before pups are even born? Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me to be a strange logic that says “Our dogs are perfect and good enough to breed, but their offspring will automatically not be!” Finally, where do you expect the next generation of dog handlers to come from?? My daughter would like to get involved in dog shows, but Coco was too ill, Jasper is a rescue dog, and apparently a new pup on the LR can’t be shown…

“Human Grade Offcuts” is what they use to make regular mince that sells for $10+, so usually pet mince contains spoilt meat, offal, or not for human consumption meat. It’s probably ok, but I would also be worried about the risk of bacterial infection from some of those sources. We only feed Jasper meat that is available for sale for Human Consumption; lamb/beef offcuts, turkey drumsticks, or whatever chicken bits are on special. Generally $3~4 per kilo.

I checked out the gundogs on Wednesday. There were a couple of Joy Gregg’s Blackregals (Harry & Eden) there. Apparently Sonja also had Kajsa and Tika there. I didn’t see them, but have seen pictures and they are beautiful.

Does anyone have a detailed schedule for the gun dogs tomorrow? The show website just says 9:00am to 5:00pm which isn't much help. I am most interested in the Flatties and other retreivers.

The issue was that it was acknowledged that this poor boy was displaying atypical behaviour as a result of his imprisonment, but they weren’t prepared to give him a chance outside his prison.As I said (if you read my post) he would only have interacted with myself, and my teenagers, until he had proven that the aberrant behaviour was behind him. I suppose that under the wrong conditions almost any dog can snap, and a small child could be injured by almost anything, especially if the attack was directed at their face. Difference is that whilst the pounds are full of Staffy and Kelpie crosses, that can actually do a fair amount of damage, a Flattie simply can’t. They have been bred to carry fowl; they have big soft mouths, round teeth, and weak jaws. I must confess that as a teenager, I taught my first Flattie to catch food that I tossed. (What can I say, I was a teenager, and at least I wasn’t doing drugs) Sometimes he would get over excited and snap, catching my hand. He never even broke the skin. I’d also mention that when questioned they couldn’t say whether he was actually biting or just mouthing. Flatties will mouth until trained out of it or until they mature. I can appreciate that rescuers (who are predominately volunteers) must get awfully frustrated at some idiot would-be owners, and I’m not suggesting that they let dogs go into blatantly unsuitable families. However they should give potential adoptees some credit for looking at adopting rather than patronising puppy mills and BYBs.

Ok, this is probably going to spark some debate, but please hear me out. The conduct of some dog rescue organisations is a pet peeve of mine, culminating in a recent incident that I will get to. The sad fact is that any idiot can go to a pet store, BYB, or some breeders and buy a puppy regardless of how ill-suited that breed is to their lifestyle or situation. (Yes, RESPONSIBLE breeders don’t allow that.) It seems that many rescue organisations try to compensate for this, by trying to impose restrictions on would be adoptees. That’s a fine idea, but unless they personally visit each family, they can only rely on what’s put on a form which only gives them control over honest people, and consequently they seem to overcompensate by applying OTT conditions. I can’t help but wonder how many would be adoptees have simply given up and gone and bought a pup from a pet store??? We are a responsible dog owning family. We have a huge backyard, which is actually fenced into three separate zones, that can be shut to separate dogs if necessary. I know my breeds, and I know what is suitable for my family and what is not. Jasper was “rescued” from the RSPCA two years ago. I was told that he was a pedigreed Flattie, and he was entire at that time, but they insisted he be neutered before adoption. That suited us fine, because Coco was entire and we didn’t want them breeding, but it was their comment that I found funny; “We’re not in favour of breeding.” So where are dogs supposed to come from? At their first meeting, Coco was very shy of this big stupid puppy who simply wanted to lick her all over, and consequently they were reluctant to allow the adoption. I recently enquired with a rescue association, and before they would even give me details of the dog, they required a registration and approval process, including referees!?! Recently we visited another rescue organisation. Hidden away along a path there are a couple of Kennels out of the way, and I was surprised to see what was obviously a Flattie. His behaviour was very withdrawn, but with coaxing he came to the fence and licked my fingers. I enquired about having a closer look at him, and was told that he had been fine when first surrendered, but since being imprisoned he had become withdrawn and had even started snapping. I was told that it had been decided that he could not go to a house with other pets or any children. (My youngest is 10.) I asked to able to meet him on a leash in one of their exercise areas and was told that I needed to speak with their trainer first. I left several messages for him over the next few weeks, but he never called me back. I was then told that the dog had been deemed unsuitable for adoption and had been put down. It is heart-breaking that this poor boy was never given a chance. I’m not an idiot, I would never expose my children to harm, but I would have liked the opportunity to give him a try, let him roam our big yard, interact with our teenagers, and see if he would return to form. I never did get to talk to “the trainer” but it was clear that the other people there had no idea what a Flattie was. This was no pit bull or pig dog, a poor Flattie couldn’t hurt you if he wanted to. I understand what motivates these organisations. I share their frustrations at irresponsible owners, BYBs, and the puppy industry. I also agree with doing their utmost to ensure that every adoption is well suited. However I also believe that in some cases their fanatical/obsessive behaviour may sometimes be counterproductive. If you can educate would-be owners, great, but if all that happens is that they go and buy a puppy from a shop, then we’ve missed an opportunity. They should also accept that many people looking at rescue dogs ARE responsible owners.

As I said, different subjects.As for rant, yes I do object to people that rubbish any Dog that doesn’t look EXACTLY like Dog-X. I am looking for a pet, so whilst I want the dog to comply with the standard, I am primarily concerned with hips, eyes, etc. (If my pet turned out to be suitable for breeding, AND I could find a decent sire, then I might consider it, but that’s not my primary goal.) I’m glad that you mentioned a few other things. When I bought Coco, I was told by this breeder that the Sire & Dam were Hip & Eye certified, and in fact that they had pioneered this practice in WA! Naturally this time I would ask for evidence. What do you regard as the issue, with only meeting the Dam through a Fence? She claims that she doesn’t let people go any further because of diseases? Thankyou for recommending the other Kennels. Hawksdale has a litter due next month, so I am contemplating putting my name down. They will be black, but I would prefer a healthy black to a poorly bred Chocolate. The others have no litters planned.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.) There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also?

Excuse me but "snooty" not me - nor most of the breeders I know - "overpriced" - DNA testing is $100+ for each test, eye test $80+, vet check pre mating $150+, canine herpies test $100+, X-rays $150+, pregnancy check up $100+ each time, what am I missing people...oh sorry the education - check the MDBA course prices and then go google the books necessary to this properly. My breed generally sell for around $1000 - most cross breed mutts sell for almost that but what do you get with them. Mine will go with microchip, breeder ID tattoo, sterilized (tubal ligation or vasectomy), written vet check, Volhard puppy temperament evaluation, Vaccinated, wormed, 6 weeks insurance and all the documentation recommended by both the MDBA and ANKC. What does the BYB down your street do? Since I wasn’t in any way replying to your post, I’m not sure why you take my comments as directed at you?Anyway, what do you propose? Keep the heads in the sand and pretend the problem doesn’t exist? Don’t get me wrong, I’m on the side of the Ethical Breeder. Problem is that there is a huge gap between what Ethical Breeders can supply and what the market demands. That demand is currently being met by puppy mills, home breeders, and UNethical breeders. What I’m suggesting is that properly regulated and supervised, home breeding is a viable alternative.

Sorry, we’re getting a few different topics confused here, and have diverged from the original topic, which was to find a good Flatcoat in WA. Which I am finding extremely difficult, given that everybody keeps rubbishing the largest breeder.My POINT is that I am only concerned with getting a Flattie who complies with the standard and most importantly is free from genetic defect. Not only do I not care if my dog doesn’t look EXACTLY like the dogs winning all the shows in the East, but I actually PREFER my flatties with feathers.

So the world is full of idiots, there’s a surprise. The problem is, if we don’t like puppy mills, and we don’t want to wait a year to get some overpriced inbreed from a snooty breeder what are the choices? And PLEASE don’t say a pound puppy. That just makes no sense. How the wild offspring of feral dogs is better than breeding your pet, I don’t know. The “head in the sand” attitude of many breeders continues to amaze me. Outside of Show circle, the term “Registered Breeder” is just an alarm bell to many people. For your average dumb-schmuck member of the public they assumed that buying an expensive “pedigreed” from a breeder represented a quality product, and so unfortunately the horror stories proliferate. Some breeds in WA have been decimated by the poor practices of registered breeders, to the point that cross-breeding is the only way to get a pup that will live more than a few years. It’s no wonder that Mr & Mrs Joe Public are turning to SpaniCavmagnadoodles. I think that properly regulated, home breeding is a great thing. If I had a pedigreed bitch, I would like to see her have puppies, provided that both she and the sire were certified as free of genetic defects. The problem is that we have absolutely zero regulation of dog breeding, and as the OP laments any drongo can breed any pair of mongrels. Even the concept of “Registered Breeders” doesn’t actually impose any significant restrictions on poor breeding practices. I’d like to see laws such that only government registered breeders could own unneutered dogs, that the dogs must be certified free of genetic flaws, and that premises must comply with certain health standards. I also think that Pedigree Breeders should get on the front foot, clean-up their own house by kicking out unethical breeders, and do more to promote ROBUST Pedigree animals as Pets.

Hi bigD..this is actually called 'linebreeding' and done properly is an accepted method of breeding. Also moving too far away from the standard defeats the purpose of breeding altogether dosnt it? Slavish devotion to the standard is what breeders should be doing imo... I also tend to agree calling another dog ugly is not called for I agree contact breed clubs and there are a couple of Flatcoat breeders here on DOL. Good Luck. ;) Docking tails and ears used to be accepted also. Linebreeding as you call it should go the same way. It can only lead to genetic degradation which is a bad thing.I’m not talking about moving away from the standard, I’m talking about people being obsessed with the current faddish interpretation of the standard. Don’t get me wrong, dogs should always comply with the standard, and those that fail should not be bred. What concerns me is when people get fixated that all Flatties should look EXACTLY like Dog X, and then proceed to rubbish other peoples dogs, even though they still comply with the standard.

Say WHAT?Dogs are a product of the breeding. Whilst it might it might be the fault of the morons who have been doing the breeding, the fact remains that we now have entire breeds that simply have no place in society. They have been bred for “aggressive” temperaments, sharp teeth, and extremely powerful jaws. It’s all very well to say “punish the deed,” but what if the misdeed is breeding the animals in the first place. The problem is that some dogs, nomatter how well trained and socialised, are simply too dangerous. That’s why you should never leave a Rotti with children. Rotti’s are beautiful dogs, and those bred for temperament are affectionate and make great pets. We had a neighbour who had Rotti’s and he would bring them around to socialise with our kids. They were lovely big pups, but he always kept a choker on them, and he was a huge guy, more than capable of clean-lifting the digs if needed. BUT, if they do snap, they can do terrible damage with their powerful jaws. That’s why I believe that breeding should be regulated, and ownership of such dogs should be restricted to responsible owners. Contrast that with something like a retriever. They have simply never been bred to behave aggressively, and with their soft mouth and round teeth they couldn’t hurt someone even if they wanted to. It’s a bit like the argument with guns. I believe that I’M mature, intelligent, responsible and law-abiding enough to have ownership of a handgun. But if the laws allowed me to own one, then every crackhead in town would also have one.

Nothing personal, but I have an issue with statements like that. For starters, I doubt the dog is truly ugly. I accept that you believe it doesn’t match the current interpretation of the breed standard, but so what. I believe that the Breed Standards are significantly broad to allow for some variation. Slavish devotion to a particular interpretation, has in some cases led to some unscrupulous breeders inbreeding to retain the favoured characteristics.That said, if there is an issue of breeding with poor hips, eyes, or temperament, then I’d like to know about that.

In principle it is the same set of chromosomes, but whereas Labradors can carry either E or e, flatties are predominately EE whilst Goldies are always ee.Also, from what I have seen, the red tinge is less common in Australian dark Labradors Is it just me, or has the interpretation/ acceptance of “Liver” changed over time? 30 years ago, (when the imports were mostly coming from the UK) the Liver dogs I saw had a pronounced redness (almost plumlike.) My first flattie was from a Liver bitch and he had vivid red flashes. Whereas today, as you say, the Liver is a dark liver, and in some cases is close to being (and hence is called) a Chocolate.

Coco’s CAWA papers say different! Not much good since I live in WA (see thread title.)