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kateshep

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Everything posted by kateshep

  1. I was referring mostly to this comment below, and in general to the belief that it is related to herding. Regarding the pics of Horand, he is not the only old style gsd- the breed was created from various sheep herding/guarding types, some with floppy ears, shaggy coats but in old pictures of those tending dogs and the regional herding types in germany today( probably distantly related to gsd) I do not see a roach or over angulated hindquarters.
  2. Your point being ? I see plenty of show gsds with a roach back and significant angulation in the hindquarters. Posting a pic of one not as extreme doesn't mean much unless it is the whole VA line up with ironed out toplines. Even though your female is not overly exaggerated I can still see that she is of that type ( and not just her colour). The picture of her not in a stack is looking down towards her so you can't see her topline shape as much. What I see with many show gsds it's like the pelvis is lower- and you can feel when you pat them the spine arching-even the ones not as exaggerated. With many too you can spot the angulation in the hindquarters a mile away when the dog is walking and running because they are so much weaker in those areas.
  3. Yet Border Collies, Kelpies, Cattle dogs, Belgian Shephers, Collies etc etc etc have nowhere near as much slope as GSDs. Considering that GSDs are rarely used for herding how does this argument stand?? I've never seen these other breeds performing the same style of herding (tending). The standard was set at a time when that's what this breed did, and this was (I believe) the reason given. Why should it change? I have many photos of these old dogs, going back pre-standard, and they are longer than Belgians and have a mild slope that does not cover the entire topline. Total gaga this false notion that the type of structure is needed for herding. Prior to the creation of the gsd, for hundreds of years their descendants herded and protected sheep and they did not require SL type to get the job done. Yes they were more moderate in structure like other herding breeds. Ironically the change only came about when the gsds use as a herding dog diminished greatly throughout the 20th century. And it would never have evolved in a working situation because to get that type of extreme change in structure requires people to ignore working ability, temperament and physical soundness as long as the dogs they were breeding had the structure they wanted. No one would have bred working dogs if they couldn't stand up either physically or mentally but that is exactly how the SL came about. But the breeders still need the "legacy" of the gsd breed as a working dog to sell their product, so they come up with some pretty mythical stories to enable them to do so- such as the herding one.
  4. I have pretty much already covered what you have said in previous posts so no point in going over it again. I am certainly not saying WL don't have faults, rather that the dramatic changes SL have gone through represent a major extreme in comparison imho.
  5. They do they just call it something else, I see plenty of showlines being bred with roach backs.
  6. As stated the extreme in SLs was started by neglecting the genetic diversity and focusing on looks to be able to achieve the dramatic change in conformation. Now you are basically saying those who don't follow are creating an extreme when all they have done is not buy into that type of ideal. In doing so we have dogs today which do actually have some type of resemblance to the past dogs. They are not creating extremes just preserving them as they used to be. I never wanted to get a gsd because I did not like what SL breeders had done to the breed, until I found out there was a working type. You don't seem to get that some WL breeders don't want to introduce showlines because of the way they have been selected for several generations- they are potent for certain traits many WL breeders don't want. How dogs have been selected and for what for tell breeders something about what they might produce which matters to them when choosing breeding dogs. There is nothing in the standard which calls for a roach back, infact it is a fault. Gently sloping topline yes but that is not a roach.
  7. When it comes to the nitty gritty of questioning alot of showline breeders/owners will say the dogs don't have a "roach" it is curved a little and it is supposed to be like that. (someone decided it makes for a supposed stronger back- not in the standard funnily enough) but I disagree that it is in anyway desireable nor functional. As I already said many WL breeders don't want the type of genetics that has produced the type of extreme conformation changes or the lack of selective pressure for working ablility- which has all come about for linebreeding on the same narrower genetic base than what is provided already in the WLs- so HOW can they lose out by not breeding into those lines ? Why introduce lines that are linebred for traits they don't want ? Remember it was the SL breeders who took the breed in a much more dramaticaly changing direction, please don't take a dig at others breeders who didn't or currently don't want to buy in that change. Instead you should be questioning the need SL breeders had for distorting a working dog. Yesmaam wrote : Exactly.
  8. A dog falls back on its genetics what it hasn't been conditioned/trained to already do. PD's aren't trained to bite kids, are they ? children act very differently to adults, dogs know they aren't the same- it doesn't follow that the dogs are able to generalise like that- but hey most of these type of discussions are speculation( for any newbies on the forum) unless aussielover & staranais also have experience in this area they haven't mentioned ? -my girl's uncle is a retiring PD in QLD who his handler describes as stable, next time I speak to his handler I will ask him about this topic.
  9. They aren't junk yard dogs who bite randomly out of fear and instability. Provided the dog was socialised as a pup (often are in working dogs -to a range of different environments and people) then sorry but I still disagree and would say it would be the dog's temperament that caused a reaction like that to a child not because he is trained to.
  10. I don't know what you mean by this statement ? to me many of the working lines look very similiar in comparison to the the earlier dogs in the breed's history. I won't dispute that there are working lines of course with structural faults but imho it doesn't compare to the drastic structural showlines have moulded into over the past 30-40 years. Yes they all came from the original stock 100 years ago, however during the 70's-early 80's the genetic diveristy in top winning VA groups began to dwindle with the exclusion of certain bloodlines which would provide the desired show conformation. Hence we have the cookie cutter looks today( black/red- roach back- over angulated in the rear). There was alot more variety in the genetics back then why ?? and what changed?? $$$$ making gsd shows & breeding into a big money making businesss. It was ripped apart by people who wanted to change the breed by dumbing down the working ability tests that would allow them to breed upon lines which were weaker in temperament but provided the extreme exaggerated conformation, that has nothing to do with actual work but someone's ideal of beauty and side gait. Sticking your head in the sand is saying they are the same, last time was in the 60's and 70's, not now. Back to what I said originally, after generations and generations of selective breeding upon the narrowed gene pool of selective show winning bloodlines with working ability put priority wise down the line, why would a working breeder want to introduce that type of genetics ? Not to mention- That STRUCTURE is absolutely not desireable, sorry.
  11. Sorry I disagree. Though I don't believe the dog should be put down nor that we know the whole story of the incident, I do have to question the strength of nerve and clarity in a working dog that would see a child as a threat.
  12. Though I do agree there are health issues such as HD, ED, bloat, allergies in both working and show lines, I have to very much disagree with what is written above. Sorry that is the worst thing that can happen. The current showlines are a complete distortion in structure if you compare them to the "original" gsds. Combining them structurally may help the showlines but not the working type who have remained fairly unchanged over time. That type of structure mixed in the workings lines, a big no no for me. Not the mention combining the temperament of the showlines, who are linebred generation and generation upon dogs who lack the ability to handle pressure and have strength of nerve to the strong aggression in some working lines would be disasterous.
  13. Thank for posting, very interesting. I thought the comment that they keep the males with females to help teach the pups, interesting too. I know some breeders are conscious of making sure the male is good with young pups while others seem less bothered about it. I don't think they are puppy farming them. They have a alot of dogs yes, but that doesn't mean somebody is indiscriminate and careless. Different culture and mentality to what's DOL is used too.
  14. I was disappointed , my post on specialistcanines was completely ignored, so I am hoping as some members on that forum frequent DOL and probably already have seen this thread and sent their letters in. I too got a email response from Joanne Duncan and sent a reply back. Erny I sent you a PM re your letter.
  15. Agree Nekhbet, at what point does trying to appease the uneducated come to an end ? Will it come to a point when we are afraid to say we breed dogs with teeth no seriously, we shouldn't have to play down at their level because people don't understand. If people let it keep going in that direction it's just heading down along an unfriendly path for dogs and dog owners. There is nothing wrong with people describing these dogs as having aggression-( did anyone take notice of the wording balance and how many times stability was mentioned ) but people are made to feel it is, when these dogs and many many other breeds have been bred like this for centuries and they are far from crazy. There is however something very wrong and misunderstood with trying to suggest otherwise, that is the far bigger problem. Time and energy will be more useful when focused towards educating others instead of being afraid.
  16. Given the OP and many responses in this thread there is clearly a lack of understanding of inherited breed characteristics in gsds. Can I also echo the part of the advertisement where it mentions balance which might suggest the dog isn't a raving lunatic but perhaps they have solid nerves and are able to show aggression when appropriate ? How are they supposed to be protective if they have no aggression I wonder ? German Shepherds are not Golden Retrievers, but it does not mean with the right handling they cannot also be loyal, loving and intelligent dogs with their families. So we should be expecting working breeds like the gsd to have no aggression, which if it applies to gsds it must apply to many other working breeds also ? we would want all dog breeds to act the same unless they go extinct first, would we ? This would all essentially be bowing down to this mentality in society these days and fear of lawmakers that if a dog is not loving and sociable with everyone there must be something wrong with it or we risk BSL ? A dog can have aggression but still be stable and predictable. A better and more justifiable option you would think is to educate the community so these dogs are given a fair chance, which would include people not jumping to misguided conclusions to quickly before speaking to knowledgeable people and doing some research. I don't mean to sound harsh, but what I wrote, I meant it in the most genuine and sincere way. I think don't you realise in posting your thread in the way you have, you are actually in way unintentionally doing what you feared the breeders in the advertisement were. edit spelling.
  17. I would definately love to see Schutzhund, French and Belgian Ring and KNPV become accepted as working activities for many working breeds, and as an outlet to express their natural abilities and inherent drives I enjoy seeing people get involved with their dogs in those activities but otherwise....the irony here is spot on.
  18. Yes I was thinking of the one via NDTF. It will be worth a try, I will post it :rolleyes: Thankyou Erny and everyone else who has contributed letters so far Keep them coming though !!!
  19. Erny can I post the template you did to Specialist canines Australia working dog forum ?
  20. Just wanted to wish Jed a speedy recovery and R.I.P Doggies who were lost :p
  21. Wow what a seminar !! my head still hurts and I am still digesting it all. I did wish there was more time for other topics but otherwise I was pleased with what was covered. Thankyou to Steve Lindsay, the NDTF and everyone working behind the scenes, an oppurtunity to attend such a seminar like that doesn't come along every day and I will definately remember it for some time to come
  22. If all you want is a bed to sleep in and you get really desperate you can stay in a youth hostel. There are several within reasonable walking distance from the convention centre. I will be staying in one to keep costs low. And I will not be catching a taxi but walking to the convention centre. Lonely planet hostels Sydney There are hotels in Sydney listed too on the lonely planet website.
  23. I'm going all the way from WA really look forward to it
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