kateshep

Some gsd herding links in US- going back to mostly old HGH/working. Ellen Nickelsberg Kleinenwiese German Shepherd The lines you are calling HGH lines today look exactly like other showlines to me, no wonder looking at their pedigrees as they are 99.9% the same as other modern showlines with a few faraway ancestors that were from old HGH dogs decades ago.

I have worked as vet nurse for the past 6 years and have recently decided to quit because it is too hard to save on such low pay. Yeah salaries can vary, but I think the 32K is a fair average. Once you have gained a few years experience, going into other pathways such as specialist vets ect are good options. You don't have to do extra courses to get a job at specialist/emergency though it may help, they look more heavily into your experience from what I found. One other major reason I decided to quit was job satisfaction was quite low for me. I absolutely loved working with animals, but the Veterinary industry is big business $$$$, the commercial aspect is a big turn off for me. Making a living and paying for services is one thing but pushing unecessarily needed products is another. What I tell my friends and family with regards to their pet care needs is not what I am supposed to tell clients. Not all clinics are like this- some worse than others but in my experience many could do better in that aspect. Don't think I'd want to work for a drug company either. Good luck, I guess you have to decide what you really enjoy, want to do and try to balance it with what you can lifestyle can financially survive by.

Bump I have cross posted this on another forum if that's ok ?

Have posted some squares today, express as I have been delayed in sending them earlier. Get well Erny

Here was my kelpie "Tess" who passed away in 2005. She was my first dog as a child who would come everywhere with me, many times offlead and always behaved herself. Just a great dog to have around. Miss ya Tess Picture taken 2004. She looks very regal I think :D

I'd rather get a puppy from titled parents than non titled parents does that clear it up ? Ideally I'd still want to see them for myself that they had the temperament I want. Active success in performance roles. Get a puppy from parents who are doing what you want your puppy for or have a high success producing dogs in that department, and get knowledgeable through training experience so you have more of an idea of what traits you are looking for. also for further clarification here I said: Titles or no titles it is up to the buy/breeder to get educated about working temperament and select what traits they want, looking at the qualities in the dogs not just assuming it must be there because they have a few letters behind their name. Not that titles are worthless and don't indicate anything just that they don't guarantee.

As I said previously still waiting on clarification re what Joek said. I specifically said titles aren't worthless, just no absolutes there and further evaluation may be necessary. If someone wanted a working pup go to a breeder that has active success in producing dogs for performance roles.

No. Look where the stringent testing and evaluation in germany has gotten the german showline. It's no secret the major emphasis has been on pursuing conformation traits. Which is why as a result of neglection of working ability there is a WL/SL split even though back in the 60's, 70's there was no such thing they were mostly the same dog, same pedigree. And why the original poster of this thread is looking for a gsd with a straight back, because thanks to judges and breeders awarding and breeding to dogs with more exaggerated traits- (the ones who have gotten the highly esteemed KKL1 and high conformation ratings), which is evidence even the general public are becoming more aware of it.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never stated anything like you have written above is any kind of good test. Instead I said it's up to the breeder/buyer to get educated about working temperament if thats the direction they are going for instead of relying solely on titles without further evaluation. It depends what you mean by average ? Sure not every WL is going to cut the mustard but I find it really misleading if you say the WLs we have here in australia don't compare to VA german showlines in working ability ? Or maybe I have misunderstood ?

I don't know how you come to the conclusion the average WL in Aus is poorer quality in work than a ScH3 titled show dog. It is possible for a dog to be titled and worked only in prey drive, and when that happens there is little to no test of nerve, courage. Titles or no titles it is up to the buy/breeder to get educated about working temperament and select what traits they want, looking at the qualities in the dogs not just assuming it must be there because they have a few letters behind their name. Not that titles are worthless and don't indicate anything just that they don't guarantee. If the German showlines in Germany were in such a great state as far as working ability you would see police and Military utilising them in their breeding programs, they would be more frequently represented in high level competitions, Helmut Raiser wouldn't have started a new organisation the RSV2000 and you wouldn't have the scores of complaints from working dog breeders around the world about the sub standard and washed down versions of testing. Just a few things to consider. I also wanted to say I am no expert but from my experiences so far I found what you said to be really misleading for those just beginning to learn.

I'm happy to send some material. Is silk ok ? Sorry I can't sew I've always enjoyed Erny's posts. Best of luck and well wishes to a speedy recovery.

What you said doesn't make any sense at all. Can you provide some factual information to back up this statement ?

There are a couple of working line gsd breederds in SA if you prefer a dog with a straighter back. Here's one. Brooksvale gsd I don't know them personally to be able to recommend them so you need to do the research and discuss, visit the breeder to see if they could most likely provide provide you with what you are looking for. Good Luck

Christine Zink said the same. And still it falls on deaf ears. Do you know if she is referring to the American show gsd or German showline ? Both types look very different from the original dogs but also from each other, still showing structural extremes. American show lines. However the problems she identified are here too. thanks.

Christine Zink said the same. And still it falls on deaf ears. Do you know if she is referring to the American show gsd or German showline ? Both types look very different from the original dogs but also from each other, still showing structural extremes.

I am unsure about the effects of overstimulating, it would be contradictory to ENS as it is more about mild stimulation though isn't it ? You may find this interesting.

Do you mean not registered at all or not registered with the ANKC ? Both. Eg Kelpies( recognised breed) bred as working dogs but that are not registered with ANKC and unrecognised breeds ( and neither circumstances want to be ANKC registered- just left as they are). With some breeds there will be two registries - one working one show - similar to how we have done for Border Collies see below. With breeds who are not recognised by the ANKC but who have their own registry - maybe. For GSD all of their titles and jobs will be entered as well as health issues on the registry. Working Registry ; Working Bloodlines. Dog must be registered with, or the offspring of dogs registered with ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, AWBC or MDBA Working Registry parents. General Registry; Includes Show and Work bloodlines or any combination. Dogs must be registered with Acceptable KCs, MDBA general registry or MDBA working registry ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, AWBC or any combination of the accepted working and KC registries. Dogs who qualify may be dual registered in MDBA Working registry and MDBA General Registry Dogs or their offspring can move from Working Registry into general Registry Dogs or their offspring cannot move from General Registry into working registry Thankyou Steve for that

Do you mean not registered at all or not registered with the ANKC ? Both. Eg Kelpies( recognised breed) bred as working dogs but that are not registered with ANKC and unrecognised breeds ( and neither circumstances want to be ANKC registered- just left as they are).

I have a quick question for Steve about the MDBA. Is the MDBA going to be working with/accepting breeders of unregistered pure-breds or working dogs, or only if they are planning to seek approval as a recognised breed by ANKC ?

Good luck Herr Rottweiler, hope you enjoy training in NSW. I considered moving to Vic from WA as I have relatives there, but the insane dog laws with regards to Schutzhund, Prong collars and e-collars which would prevent me training and learning in those practices and from doing what I love, learning more about gsds and schutzhund, completely put me off moving there. Holiday visits only from now on.

Well said Nekhbet. On the subject of hips/joint problems. I remember watching a doco which showed in one part the nomadic people and their dogs of Mongolia. The dogs provide companionship and guard their livestock. Due to the lifestyle of the people, the dogs even at a young age were expected to be sturdy and travel along with them as they moved from camp to camp. They are naturally selecting for very sound structured dogs which are physically capable and robust at a young age. Completely goes against the all too frequent advice given to large breed puppy owners of being extremely careful with exercise ect, and I wonder if we do them any favors by treating them in a fragile way, as we think they are or breeding them so they do need special care. Just a thought.

Just to add on to what has already been said, a major problem I have encountered from many trainers & clubs in W.A, is the outright disregard to embrace other dog training methods that are not considered "purely positive" ( referring to clickers & treats only trainers- halti's usually acceptable- no correction collars- most trainers will know what I mean ). This is a huge welfare issue imho for stronger willed/larger/dominant dogs which are not always going to fit only into that style of training. Once the initial teaching is done with treats ect, some dogs may still need a correction to inhibit bad manners. We need a mentality shift and should try to educate & encourage more people to adapt methods to suit the dog's temperament and not have them all fall under the same umbrella with the same techniques. Having preferences for certain training techniques is fine as long as it doesn't affect the welfare of the dogs. I know it's the same issue Australia wide.

I'm not just talking about extreme examples, but rather in general the gsd type you see nowadays all the time. It would "probably" be genetically impossible for them to return to anything like what Erny posted which shows how much they have changed. It appears those dogs have been isolated for some time and so out of influence from mainstream SLs. They way over did a good thing. If people were actually testing their dogs at work it would never have happenend.

I don't really want to argue either but sorry I have a different opinion to you. The showlines I do see have roach backs and show too much hind quarter angulation imo. These are dogs at shows, obedience and dogs from SL breeders which come into the Veterinary hospitals ( am a vet nurse) I work at which make me cringe. It seems breeders like to call it something different though to what everyone else sees. I do agree as already mentioned that your female is not as exaggerated but still of that type and no I did not say unsound. Have seem plenty of dogs from SL which can't run fast or jump very athletically as a result of the spine and hindquarter shape.

I am not questioning the relevance of structure to work but the type pushed by SL breeders. So gait efficiency is important, but the claim that the SLs represent this I seriously question. I wasn't saying the originals gsds are the same as other breeds but they have more in common to them than to the SLs.