Saffioraire

Oh sorry I kinda hijacked your thread The Kooikerhondjes are sooo lovely, I will add them to my tattslotto list ;)

Oh P.S DogSport Obsessed ..... Hubba Hubba! SOOOO amazingly handsome! P.P.S. Denxion ... you know how to import ... are you thinking of importing more ... ???!!!! HAPPY TO HELP !!!! Why is there no 'drool' emoticon!

OH YES! I was trying to post a photo of a Merle and couldn't make it work!! Someone I spoke to about her's called them Mudis, although often I wonder if they are just trying to be polite with translation! Mudik sounds great, especially because it means more than one Ok so now all I need to do is win tattslotto and bring on the Czech Wolfdog and Mudi populations in Australia!!

The horse cat comparison is interesting. Why I never thought of it in dog terms I don't know - but I never feel comfortable on a Chestnut horse and will never own one again. My last one either had a brain tumor or was chemically imbalanced and was PTS after galloping through a fence. I watched him do it and right before he took off I saw his eyes roll back in his head, was like a scene out of a horror movie! All Chestnuts I have met have been a bit mad, but the ironic part is that I love grey's however the grey and chestnut genes are linked... ?! The literature is interesting and I haven't had time to read it all. It's a tricky one. What I want to know is are there any original breeds (looking >100 years) that were actually bred with specific colour? Or is this something that become a part of the standard later on? I think while genetic technology cannot yet quantify these relationships, man has observed it and managed it for the time manipulated breeding has been in play. Good breeders used mistakes, instinct, eye and common sense to make evaluations and decisions and obviously they did a good job considering 99% of our breeds came about long before genetic technologies. These days such intuition almost seems to be treated as voodoo. I'm all for Genetic don't get me wrong. I want to get a PhD in Genetics, but I think without common sense genetic knowledge can only take us so far.

Again I have other thoughts but will comment on what I know intimately first. When you say you would be interested in an 'East White puppy' (hehe) or a White with good drives as a puppy, what drives are you referring to? While I DONT want this to become a thread about the White Shepherd - I would like to contradict a thought I see you having (unless I am reading it wrong). The modern day White Swiss Shepherd Dog as it is by the FCI and accepted by the ANKC, while IMO and is immanently evident does NOT possess the drive for bite work/ IPO - tracking and obedience is a whoooole other kettle of fish. Using my bitch as an example, first tracking outing ever, was highly commended by those running the day and I was told happily that with minimal practice she would be achieving titles. She works her nose naturally and very well. This year we picked up proper obedience training, off the little training I have given her (basic sit, stay, stand) she was pushed through to (what I believe) is grade 3 in 3 lessons as a starting point and I was told it would not be hard for her to gain titles this year. Our biggest challenge will be stand for exam, but her nerves stem more from trauma of quarantine than personality flaws. Her puppies.... oh her puppies! I kept a pup from her x a lovely dog. At 6 weeks when I called was coming to my feet, sitting in close and engaging eye contact, or focus on my face. He was used as an example dog for the lead work at puppy school. He heeled (unprompted) his shoulder to her leg, focus on her face at all times.... natural untaught! He is not the only pup, I have feedback from many including one who is in training (an impressing her hardest critics) for Search and Rescue. So I my point is obedience, loyalty, intelligence and natural instinct is not lost on these dogs, but the drive for bite work/ IPO, yes most definitely IMHO

No you wouldn't want an "aggressive" dog for IPO - sometimes my brain can't eloquently think of the words I want to say The word I wanted to use was drive, but "drive" per se is such a vague term in the context of what I was trying to say, the White GSD's still had the drive to work in the tracking field, obedience etc etc just not for the bite work. As further to that I understand they CAN do the bite work but they don't have the threshold of say a Sable (or any other breed standard colour) of GSD. Don't ask me about Blue or Liver because I have no idea! I suppose you could say they don't have the 'heart' for the work? I don't know. (Metaphorically not morphologically of course) I hope you sorta kinda understand what I am getting at? Sorry!

So I really wanted to carry on a train of thought stimulated from this comment (sorry don't mean to single you out). I had a very interesting discussion once with a very well respected breeder of working dogs. He had questioned whether there is a genetic link between a dogs temper and it's colour. His reason to suggest this (firstly instigated by an old mentor) was demonstrated to me on a chart of the top achieving Dobermans over a hundred or so years. Of the many many dogs on the chart, there were perhaps several black Dobe's with the rest being Brown. He also suggested that the GSD demonstrated this also with the top achieving Sch/ IPO dogs over as many years were predominantly Sable. He continued this point saying that in all of his years he has never seen a White GSD competing in IPO at top level (at the top level competition overseas) and said it was passed down to him the suggestion that they did not have (words fail me) but the heart for the job. This was suggested by an old timer who admired the White for it's beauty but not it's ability to work in Sch/IPO. The interesting flow on is that the new breed of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog, has been developed with a differentiating term in the breed standard of "never apprehensive NOR AGGRESSIVE" which differs from the GSD. Was this done so as a direct result of the LACK of this component in the temper of the dog, or because he who wrote it did not desire the dog to do IPO? I don't know. But it is certainly interesting to note. I am interested to know if this stems into other breeds, and if anyone else sees merit in such a suggestion (of course I am expecting a lot of no's, but really I am looking for the responses of those who are serious with working dogs). Of course such a genetic link is all but impossible to test for in a lab, and it could be a simple fact of colour selection led to character selection inadvertently. But I still think it is an interesting topic! (I should note that his colour bias was not kennel bias as his top Dobe was black!)

And a Mudis! These guys are similar to a Kelpie.

Mystic wolf if you commit to importing I'm more than happy to help you do it yourself to save $$$. I've put together an info booklet for a friend so I can photocopy it for you if you'd like :)Always happy to help, especially for a rare or new breed! How exciting

I want a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. From what I gather similar to a GSD type temperament.

My friend just bought a Dally pup (she's a horse girl) and was awestruck with the fact that while he had never seen a horse in his 1st 4 months of life she can take him riding with her every day and he trots out alongside the horse without fear and as if it is his 'duty'. Interesting point re. instinct being closer to the surface that one sometime imagines. I actually have a question for the GSD people. When I was contemplating breeding GSD's I had explored the possibilities of donating a pup from each litter, or every second litter, to the Prison dog system so the bloodlines could be tested for it's natural stamina in a work field I could not test for myself. Is this something anyone else does or has done and if so I'm interested in hearing the outcome. (NB. I no longer have an interest in GSD's so this is no longer something I look into)

Thanks for that Showdog - it really puts a different perspective on it.

Oh true Indie Girl.... If I could get one 4) Chech Wolfdog

1) White Swiss Shepherd Dog! 2) Griffon Bruxellois 3) Puli

What about the owner's needs? Why do you think people buy pets? There is an expectation that when a person buys a dog sold as a pet that it will be able to live happily as a pet in a normal home. Temperament does have a genetic component, so if you are breeding with nervy dogs you are going to be breeding pups that are not up to the quality that pup buyers and the community expects. Why should the buyer be expected to turn a faulty dog into a good pet? Getting a new dog already involves a lot of work and training, it doesn't need to have an extra level of hardship added. I've no idea what your talking about. The owner of the dog in this thread states she wants to continue on with her rescue dog that she has bought as a pet. Hence I am offering a view that has not yet been offered. There is no talk of breeding. This dog came from the RSPCA.

Yarra Ranges Leader had an artical about an Akita attack and the photo was of an elderly GSD.I'll admit when I was younger I used to think that BT's were PBT's because of an incorrect news story

Clomicalm is only available from a Vet as antidepressant medication is only available via a doctor. It is not a repeat prescription and is re assed every 30 days before more medication will be prescribed (meaning you MUST revisit the vet every 30 days), so it is managed on a strict program in conjunction with a behaviourist. I did say that any good plan uses both in conjunction and not drugs alone. Of course no one can suggest you just go and get drugs without assessment, however if behaviour methods used to treat anxiety are yeilding no results drugs are the next step. Neither valium nor clomicalm are available over the counter, neither from a vet nor a pharmacist and both require proper vet assessment. ALL of the dogs I have used drugs on have spent the minimum amount of time on the medication, all with frequent vet assessments, all with terrific results and the pathway to recovery was not nearly as traumatic as it could have been if left untreated. An anxious dog who is willing to destroy it's own body to seek a refuge is under constant traumor even once the goal of getting inside is reached. To me that is far more traumatic to allow that to continue than to have a vet asses and percribe medication to allow for an easier transition. This dog has already been placed as a pet, and the fact that it needs drugs does not make it unsuitable as a pet, it just requires a carefully managed plan from a Vet and a behaviourist to reach this outcome as a settled and content companion dog. I do wish you all the best of luck.

Ok so I've skimmed through and no-ones said this so far but it might be worth looking into means of medication. I don't mean doping him out of his brain, but there are things they can prescribe for immediate effect such as Valium which he will be weaned onto and off again, and longer term fixes such as Clomicalm. Sometimes behavior therapy alone is not enough, and likewise drug therapy alone is not enough either. However if you use a very carefully applied plan of drugs and behavior therapy together you are most likely to get the best results. The most extreme dog I've ever had DUG THROUGH A WALL of a mud brick house, and ate a door + all of the other lovely damage he did. When he went to his new home he was on Clomicalm and he became a treasured family pet. My two others have anxiety after coming through quarantine and with my second one I just popped him on clomicalm straight away to help with the settling in process. While many might be against me for this, it made his integration much more tolerable for HIM. Alleviating his immediate stress may be enough, but a long term program would be wise. This helps him to evaluate his new home without the demons of his past controlling his every thought. I will also say that on both accounts with my import dogs the greatest improvement was actually seen after they came off a period on clomicalm.

If you look at it differently... Governments have been using "shock tactics" for several years now to combat issues such as smoking, drink driving, speeding, drugs, etc. One would assume they have found them to be a successful means of driving a point home and hence why they continue to be used. So in essence while you may or may not agree, surely the choice of the KC to use a 'shock tactic' of eliminating the BOB winner of a breed is one that has been thought through and based on results shown in other areas of the community. Perhaps they have chosen to start with the 15 most obvious breeds to 'test the water' before expanding the method to a full BOB examination? Is there any documentation in regards to this so far? IMHO I don't see why breeders should rely on a Prior Vet check, when they should jolly well spend their own money and use their own brains as to what is and isn't healthy. Second to that maybe the threat of being 'named and shamed' by having your BOB winning dog outed for health may be enough to drive those without prior inclination to the Vet? Surely making for a better dog world in the long term? Edited to say - that while I support what they are doing I am not of the opinion that this is the only way. Just throwing out thoughts into the cyber never never!

Don't know if she has exact relevant info for this case but if you look up Patricia McConnell she might have something. I love everything of hers I have read/ watched so far and her descriptions are priceless and easy to envisage in your mind (if your a visual type learner like me) Sounds like you've got a great dog btw. I think regardless of your own dog, having 2 dogs coming at you flat stick would intimidate anyone - I feel uncomfortable it when it's my own dogs coming at me! Can only imagine how intimidating it would be for a dog.

Good grief I have tears in my eyes!! I LOVE the reaction you get, as if your a complete fool! And I really love the dog on the chair who casually begins to preen itself as if it didn't even hear you at all!! Just quietly I think intelligent disobedient dogs are hilarious, but I couldn't own one for the frustration of day to day life :)

Can I ask what Kennel Working Line GSD? Does it start with a V and end with an L?

Don't get a poodle if you don't want your husband stolen and to be simultaneously evicted from the bed?? Don't get a JRT if you prefer rabbits when they're alive and not on your doorstep Don't get a WSSD if..... You like to wear black clothes You don't like dishing out loads of love and affection You don't want a dog who knows what your thinking when your thinking it, can be trained to within half an inch of it's life and yet in day to day life seems to bowl along with complete idiocy! You want a guard dog You don't like socialising your dog - and aren't willing to let them interact with other dogs & children (they would be sad without it) You want a backyard dog. You DON'T want to be told off when it's midnight and your up past your bed time!

They can be a pretty handsome assistance dog too! AGREED! I am really keen to see them get into this line of work. Pretty excited that there is a special service op's dog going from this litter. How's Rakim doing? I love what you post of him working! This pup is now going to a show/ breed home up North. It's a really active home and may try their hand at sports so thats great. I think after realising that without parental credentials to back him up this type of environment was certainly the best option. So this year is our sporting titles year!