SpecTraining

Is "spirited" a euphemism for "need to know the handler is prepared to kill them"? No bloody wonder some security dogs attack the handler at the first sign of weakness. I don't know the training backgrounds of security dogs that have attacked their handlers although there has been a few occasions I have heard about it happening. None of mine have ever attacked their handlers and I don't expect that they would either.

I put them back in family homes with kids and other dogs, but I guess that isn't a real test? Indeed. Or who is a real person. This thread was about Cesar Milan techniques Aidan, by your responses it seems you think the thread is about you for some reason

Can't recall too many blind people training guide dogs Cosmolo, or too many guide dogs fall apart when beyond the trainers presence as one example. Yes, poorly trained dogs with inadequate foundation can exhibit what you have explained I agree, it happens.

So where do you go next, Garry? The dog is now aware that you can kill him, he no longer tries to bite you (the trainer). Has he learned not to bite everyone? Has he learned not to bite children, or other dogs? What about off-leash? Does he have less motivation to try and bite others? What is it that CM isn't showing us and that you haven't explained here? I don't think a dog that has to know the handler can kill them in order for them to respect, is well suited for a pet. Most people do not want to almost kill their pet dog in order to gain respect. Many people may not even be capable of doing this. Sometimes the best option for the owner is to rehome to a working home or sadly, PTS. No, they are not a good pet proposition at all I totally agree, but some people love them regardless and want to try and give them the best opportunity to rehabilitate them which I think is fair enough

Not everyone's level of "extreme" is the same Cosmolo. I have had many supposedly experienced trainers of extreme dogs that can't handle a spirited Belgian Malinios or a GSD with some civil drive, let alone teach someone how to train them. I have also seen trainers walk away from jobs when the dog has come back up the leash at them too and they write the dog off as untrainable. Some of these situations have been trainers who claim to specialise in aggression and quite honestly, they really haven't got a clue and are often scared of the dog which doesn't help. Some also apply techniques not to ruffle the dog up and avoid triggers which provides the wrong impression of the training success as the dog still remains willing and able to aggress when faced with certain triggers. They don't test the dog properly in rehabilitation to face the right triggers that will cause the dog to react, and by avoiding triggers in a claim that the dog is now rehabilitated and safe is a dangerous practice IMHO. Most trainers who work with aggression for real and understand it, work in similar principals and methods and the one's who disagree I have always found have limited exposure and experience in comparison. Their opinions are often based upon what they have read or what someone has told them, but their opinions if based upon personal experience working with aggression I think in many cases would be a lot different. It's not hard to tell reading peoples posts and opinions who is genuinely experienced with aggression and who isn't

And again, the point being made here is not that you can't rehab a dog if you are sufficiently skilled and physically capable. The point is that many dogs are owned by people who are NOT physically or mentally capable of the things Milan does. Some dogs are always going to go wind up dead because there are not enough average homes for dogs who behave, much less highly skilled, well resourced and capable homes for dogs who don't. Many owners don't have any training skills being the reason they hire professional trainers to sort out issues with their dog, but it often happens that the supposed trainer they select doesn't have the experience and skill to correct the issues either and condemns the dog to mask their inabilities. There are extreme cases of dog and owner mismatches especially people who are physically impaired, but the dog in most cases can be rehabilitated by a professional trainer to allow an impaired owner to handle them. It's not all about teaching people how to train their dog and a dog doesn't have to be owner trained to eliminate unwanted behaviours if the professional trainer is good enough.

Why the assumption that it's either alpha roll and choke your dog until it gives up, or food and cuddles? Who here is saying that dogs shouldn't learn the rules? Why the insinuation that if you use food or praise with aggressive dogs you aren't also able to implementing boundaries or rules? I have no problem with giving corrections, using tools like prongs or e-collars etc or giving dog boundaries but some of the things Cesar does makes me feel quite ill. Besides, many people would not be strong enough to choke or alpha roll a 50kg aggressive newfie until it gave up (or just plain ran out of breath). ETA: I find it amusing that anyone who doesn't 110% support Cesar is lumped into the new age food and cuddles, never ever punish your dog crowd. What I think is most amusing is the criticsm of Cesars methods from people who have never trained aggressive dogs and quite frankly don't have the experience with aggressive dogs to form an educated opinion IMHO. The "never punish a dog crowd" are the ones responsible in most cases who recommend sending aggressive dogs to the bridge and deem the dog untrainable which is understandable given that their training methods don't work with dogs of that nature. Seriously aggressive dogs WILL nail you at the drop of a hat and if you are scared of them and allow the dog to win if they bring on a fight makes them worse. Standing up to dogs like that and winning the fight, the dog soon gets the message that it can't win and begins to form some respect. Some dogs need to learn that the handler can kill them if required which in some cases is the ONLY way that the dog will learn enough respect to stop it's fighting challenges. Not too many dogs will take on a subject they can't beat and rehabilitation works in the exact opposite to confidence building used in protection training. The problem with methods that doesn't teach the dog respect of power, is that although softer methods can work to a degree, the dog ALWAYS has aggression up it's sleeve and will use aggression if need be. The dog has to learn that ANY aggression results in a major loss and at times, the more aversive and unpleasant for the particular dog the better and the alternative is PTS because the dog is too dangerous and unpredictable without learning clear definition and consequence.

Surely Nekhbet though you are aware there are other options when training an aggressive dog other than choke it, or cuddle it and give it food I've seen trainers handle "red zone" (as Cesar would call them) dogs without resorting to alpha rolling them (that would just be sheer stupidity anyway) or choking them till they give up (or run out of oxygen, either way) with great results so... I guess the "they are strong aggressive dogs" doesn't really make sense for me. And often, handling big aggressive dogs like Cesar does would be outright impossible for many owners to do - you'd have to be able to physically over power the dog, until it breaks. And even then, you are setting yourself up to get bitten. Did you know that Nekhbet is well experienced at assessing and rehabilitating aggressive dogs Huski and I am not talking only cranky little snappers either, 40 odd kilo dogs looked at the wrong way are happy to take your head off, and she's actually very good at it and a respected trainer in the working dog fraturnity which may explain where her views on the situation derives from, practical work and success with animals of that nature, not an opinion based on a handful of theories and favourtism of particular training methods

what, like on every episode it is written do not try this at home without a professional? I agree

That video is Koehler training and looked good for a 10 month old pup, no lures, no treats and the dog had good focus for the stage of training it had completed with distractions. Yes, aversive methods overdone does have a potential to cause a flatter performance, and is the reason why a combination of aversive and reward methods provides the best of both worlds

Koehler corrects for disobedience and breaking commands. The trainer in the video was standing around with the dog under no instruction then corrected when the dog focused upon something else. Konrad Most was the pioneer of yank and crank using the style of leading the dog into a mistake then correct, where Koehler methods in the situation shown on the video would not correct the dog when it wasn't subject to a command. Koehler would correct the dog in a similar fashion if he had commanded a sit and the dog disobeyed or broke the sit. Koehler methods never correct a dog in that fashion without disobedience from a known command. Winifred Strickland, a GSD breeder and high profile obedience/performance competitor was one of the first trainers to use Koehler basics adding positive reward as a double reinforcer and creating what we know today as an introduction to a training in drive scenario. She claimed several world titles in pioneering flashy obedience in certain disciplines removing the flatness in performance often seen in dogs trained in purely aversive methods.

Correct JulesP. The video Kavik posted is not Koehler leash work, looks more like Konrad Most style.

Training in Schutzhund routines is done primarily in drive for the best results that is correct, the foundation training to pass the BH to qualify into the Schutzhund routines isn't. The dog has to first display pet like behaviour and obedience, it has to walk on a loose leash and not be distracted by people, other dogs, noise, cars, bicycles, joggers and behave it's self beyond the handlers view tied to a post on it's own and if the dog jumps around, misbehaves, barks etc it fails the test. E collars are often used now in the tie out training on some dogs who misbehave without the handler's presence. Many dogs are trained in Koehler style to achieve the obedience level and reliablity to pass the BH in the foundation training.

Totally agree JulesP, it's exactly the tools (flat collar) and method I also find best with young dogs.

I wouldn't describe being quiet and obedient while having to suppress an innate response through worry of retribution as tranquility, by any stretch of the imagination. Not from what I have observed/experienced anyway. And they are top level too, from what I have seen. cheers M-J The dog doesn't supress anything in that situation, it simply makes a choice and chooses the most comfortable outcome which is to stay put and is more than happy to comply. Yes it does prey drive is a fixed action pattern. You can't correct hard wiring out of a dog, only suppress it. I would say there would be a great deal of conflict happening. I have heard that explanation given as an excuse for the inability of containing a prey driven animal by command which in reality is untrue. Prey driven animals will loop out often during attempts to suppress the behaviour in an untrained state, but a highly prey driven dog can be trained to sit quietly and mind it's business in the presence of prey quite easily. Of course they can, I'm not disagreeing with you on that one, but I don't believe the dog is tranquil. Outwardly they may appear that way but they loop out because of fear. It's survival, no good concentrating on chasing the rabbit for dinner if a tiger is chasing you for his dinner. I don't believe either the handler or the dog can stop the initial response to the stimuli, only the behaviour. The dog knows if they display the behaviour their brain is telling them to display, they will receive a correction that at best will be unpleasant, pending on how high the dog's drive is. You might be right m-j, but providing the dog behaves and obeys commands, I am happy with that behaviour. Prey drive isn't essentially a stressed component as would be defense drive, so I guess providing the anticipation to break the command is suppressed enough for the dog to behave quitely, the training result has been achieved.