morgan

Had to take a kitten to my vet tonight, so thought I'd speak to him about these options. He was aghast that I would even consider putting puppies through this! When I explained that it wasn't for me, but for those that feel "responsible" breeders must desex at 8 weeks to prevent entire puppies falling into the wrong hands, he hit the roof! Wanted to know who the hell was so irresponsible that they could even think about desexing a puppy before 6 mths of age! His attitude was that if anyone was so unsure of the quality of ownership the puppy was going to, then they shouldn't be breeding anyway. He then expressed disgust at the current AVA push to make early desexing mandatory, as well as rescue organisations doing it to very young puppies - said it was simply criminal, and that he would never perform any kind of desexing or sterilisation procedures on anything younger than 6 mths. So, no info from him! :p

Well.... er...... I am against blanket desexing of ALL companion dogs. This thread was in relation to early desexing, which I find totally abhorrent under any circumstances, but the link I posted that was anti-desexing in general opened the whole debate when Cordelia responded criticising it. So I guess I led the thread astray! I am in favour of surgical sterilisation, followed up by later desexing only where absolutely necessary - for instance where pet owners are incapable of keeping their dogs on their properties, or with multi dog aggression issues (bearing in mind that desexing doesn't necessarily cure these problems)

Hypothesis is NOT scientific fact. :p The hypothesis only related to the role of estrogen in intact females - the benefit of testosterone in intact males was established.

Read this - Osteosarcoma - there are many, many other scientific studies on cancer and desexing in dogs.

Apologies - none of the large breeds I have owned or known have come in season before 12 mths, many have been 15-18 mths. Did you happen to notice in any of my posts that I DO advocate surgical sterilisation to prevent puppies? As for not being able to prevent cancer - are you for real? :p Not really big on research? Cancer is NEVER just the luck of the draw - there are so many factors involved, some of which we can influence, others we can't.

Most serial "humpers" are dogs that were desexed as puppies, that were not given the chance to outgrow the normal puppy phase of humping. I have NEVER had an adult intact male do this, but I have seen hundreds of desexed males that do. The large breeds I was talking about here do not develop until after 12 or 18 months, so there is no way they would be producing puppies at 6 mths! Who was talking about proper size? I was talking about abnormal development of genitalia. However, there are serious ramifications with cancer etc, that people never attribute ot early desexing, because they all believe current opinion which says that desexing prevents cancer. It only prevents cancer in the bits that are removed, and mammary cancer - every other cancer is increased.

Morgan, for me, you just lost the debate by putting up that link. Perhaps if you showed a reputable site that gave medically proven facts then more people would be able to make informed judgements about the debate. I am not trying to win any debates, and I am not saying not to desex. That link was posted to show the other side of the desexing debate, and to try to encourage more thought on the topic. Many vets won't or can't perform the sterilisation methods I advocate, and they WON"T while we breeders continue to accept the status quo. It is up to us breeders to demand better options for the pups we produce - over vaccination is being challenged, and new protocols are in place, but many vets will not change their ways, as there is no financial advantage for them. Elsewhere in the world the current mantra of desexing at any cost is starting to be questioned as well, and it is about time. Spay, neuter and cancer If breeders educated themselves, did the research, and started to demand alternatives from their vets these options would gradually become more available, but if we don't demand it, vets sure as hell aren't going to offer it - they have no interest in doing anything differently. I have heard many vets say that there "are no health problems caused by early desexing, and it prevents cancer" - statements like this PROVE that they have not done the research either. This debate cannot be "won", but if some people start the ball rolling, maybe we can improve our dog's health without adding to the unwanted dog population.

Any breeder of large dogs is only responsible if they are determined to give their pups the best possible start in life - health and new owners. Desexing at 8 weeks is NOT healthy - there are far too many adverse effects. To Neuter or Not Tubal ligation, hysterectomy and vasectomy are all surgical sterilisation options open to breeders who are concerned about selling to possible puppy mills, backyard breeders or irresponsible dog owners. If they prefer to damage the pup's longterm health rather than take such risks they have not done their homework. Surely the possibility (and not a necessity) of two separate surgeries a couple of years apart are preferable to the increased risks of cancer, cruciate ligament ruptures, spay incontinence or what this poor akita is suffering? No crystal ball is needed to know that adverse health effects from early desexing are far more common than we realise - the internet is a wonderful tool for doing research on canine health topics.

What's the right thing? Desexing at 8 weeks was not the right thing for this pup! Why didn't the breeder do the research into the effects of extremely early desexing on large breeds and ask her vet for options? Tubes tied? Or vasectomised in the case of a male? But of course this is more expensive, so the breeder chooses the cheaper and easier option, at the expense of the pup. If more breeders demanded surgical sterilisation without stopping hormone production, there would be fewer cases like this Akita. It is up to us to educate the vets, who simply don't understand the dangers of standard desexing.

The vet's experience has absolutely nothing to do with the puppy's condition. The vet did an ovariohysterectomy - removal of the ovaries stops the manufacture of oestrogen. Without the oestrogen being present for the physical growth of the puppy, her normal development ceased the moment those ovaries were removed. She has been left with an immature vulva, and will always have the vulva of a puppy, even when she is adult - the same thing happens with large breed males - their penis never achieves normal appearance and size, which can look really silly on a great dane for instance! She will have problems for the rest of her life, and no amount of artificial hormones will make up for her lack of development.

Vets can definitely tie tubes - have heard of a few bitches that have had this. This at least will keep them pregnancy free until they can be desexed at maturity if the owner wishes. There is a new procedure being done where some ovarian tissue is spliced under the skin after desexing so that there is still a small amount of oestrogen being secreted to try to prevent spay incontinence. Don't know if there would be enough hormones to allow normal development from this.

Lack of development of genitalia in large breeds is the usual outcome of very early desexing, in males and females - just doesn't always cause problems.

Met a friend's gorgeous Akita pup this morning - lovely type and nature, absolutely gorgeous pup, which her proud owner had waited ages for. The pup's "responsible" breeder, insisted on desexing her at 8 weeks, prior to leaving home. My friend's vet wrote a letter, asking for this to be delayed to let the bitch mature a little first, and a desexing contract was offered, but to no avail. She was desexed. In the months since then, the poor pup's vulva has not grown and developed normally, and the constant pooling of urine has caused an ongoing maintenance nightmare, with infections, vet trips and constant cleaning after every time the bitch pees. Which of course can't be done when the owner is at work. The pup has been in constant distress at the smell and discomfort, as has the owner, not to mention the embarrassment whenever the pup has rolled on her back for a tummy rub from friends, revealing unsightly, smelly genitalia. Certainly hope that this breeder is pleased with destroying the quality of life for this poor girl - understand that as it was an interstate sale, she couldn't be sure that the new owner was totally responsible, but why not do a refund on provision of a desexing certificate, or just do a hysterectomy, leaving the essential hormones intact? Any breeder that desexes such a large breed as an Akita at 8 weeks should not be breeding IMO - they certainly don't care about their dogs.

Reactions to vaccines can occur within minutes, hours, days, weeks or months. In humans they are even starting to link Parkinsons Disease with the aluminium contained in many vaccines - this is obviously many years later! Hep B shots given to some newborn infants have killed them within 4 or 5 hours. My vet stopped using it due to some of his patients contracting auto immune haemolytic anaemia as a result, which is fatal. He says the incidence of this is supposedly small, but how do you tell the grieving owner that?

Here is a link to the manufacturer's warning letter and discussion on the injection - Heartworm injection

The best remedy I have come across, whether for people or dogs, is Syn-Flex, from the US. If you buy at least 6 bottles at a time it is much cheaper. Arrives within a week of ordering too All natural - contains glucosamine, chondroitin, antioxidants, vitamins, bromelain, yucca etc, in a liquid form so it is utilised much better than tablets or powders.

Try Diana Hayes - Hip Dysplasia We have used her Skeletal Aid and OCD remedies on horses with great success. One gelding fractured his fetlock a while ago, and the Skeletal Aid worked wonders on him - it works for all sorts of bone problems. I would also look at Synflex, a natural liquid glucosamine/chondroitin product with anti-oxidants and enzymes.

Hehe - do you ever get the line "I brush her every day, and she wasn't matted when I left home, it must have happened on the way here!" - when you look under the coat and there is a thick layer of felt attached to the skin all over?

Haven't tried them myself, as I've only ever had 3 cases of cancer in all my dogs, cats and horses over the last 30 years - 2 were mild mammary tumours in older girls who were then desexed and had "lumpectomies" and completely recovered to live normal lives, the other was bone cancer, which was so quick, the dog was pts within 3 weeks. As this was prior to the internet, it was very difficult to obtain much information. As I have had a lot of friends and family die from orthodox cancer treatment, I have done a huge amount of research into alternative cancer treatments, and came across this site whilst seeking possible treatments for a friend's melanoma. Much of the research points to chemo being helpful in about 2% of cases with humans - and that figure comes from an Australian medical research team! Many medical studies say that common cancers like breast and prostate cannot be helped with chemo, yet oncologists everywhere still use it. Untreated cancer victims normally live four times as long as those that are treated by oncologists and have much greater quality of life.

Moirat - I am extremely impressed that your vet will actually consider this! Him giving a deadline is entirely reasonable in the circumstances too. If the lymph glands look dodgy, could you manage to give her the capsules as well? There were a lot of testimonials that said the oral use of the capsules helped with internal issues while the salve was being used topically. Shekhina - that donkey was amazing wasn't it! Bit gory, but it would have died very quickly without the salve - looking at those pics you can see why pain management needs to be addressed!

Oops - here is the Australian supplier of cansema . Just click on "cansema" on the upper left hand of the home page, then when the cansema page comes up, you will see the order link. This stuff comes with a money back guarantee.

Have done a lot of research into these salves, and there is always mention of pain management being essential. In some of the animal testimonials I have read, the vets have prescribed the salve, and have shaved a bit on the leg for a pain relief patch to be put on before the salve is applied. In human cases where it is used for oral cancers, dentists have administered the pain relief required. This treatment is not for the faint-hearted! But surgery and chemo IMO are much worse, because the pain can go on for much longer. My last 2 surgeries (not cancer) required days of being on a morphine drip afterwards. Some other testimonials have said the pain was mild, and with some of the animal cases there didn't seem to be too much discomfort - could be just luck! :p At least these salves work very quickly - most cancers seem to be removed within 10 days, and the remaining hole never gets infected, which would also reduce the pain levels. Good luck, and if you try it, take photos each day to document the progress. Every time I have healed up some animal with alternative methods, people ask for photographic proof, which I never had, because I was always so busy treating it that I forgot! ed for typo

Definitely agree with your OH here. Have you looked at escharotic salves? There is an australian one called Cansema which has produced some amazing results with people and animals alike. Many horse people I know always have some Cansema Black Salve in their first aid kit for all sorts of problems. Cancer salves - this page of testimonials has a dog whose mast cell tumour has been totally removed without surgery or drugs, leaving the immune system intact. It works very quickly, usually the cancer is gone in less than a month, then the hole it leaves behind just has to heal - which can be helped with calendula ointment etc.

Whippets think they're people, and let the world know when they have been deserted! Most whippets I know are left in the house, crated if necessary, while owners are out. Whippets I have owned usually bark if left outside even when I am home!

What's that saying about people in glass houses? With PETA murdering tens of thousands of dogs a year, I would not believe one thing they had to say, and video or photographic evidence is very easy to fabricate. More research is required here I think... I don't use IAMS either, as I don't like their product.