Goofy

I thought I would just provide an update. My pup has seen the breeder's vet and I have had a long discussion with him too. Whilst my vet and the breeder's vet differ on a number of points, they both agree that the pups left elbow is basically buggered, and the right is not much better, and the one hip is half out and may cause complications in time. The prognosis is that he may be able to live with it, but he will never be really happy and will have to lead a very restricted lifestyle. He also won't make 'old bones.' The breeder has agreed to take him back and in her own words, "in my usual optimistic way, hope that in a few months I can get him better and then re-home him." We have come to an amicable arrangement that we both think is fair and reasonable, although the house is half empty without him. Thanks to all that provided constructive feedback.

I was always open to negotiation. In some cases we replaced the pup (and let them keep the original one.) In some cases we refunded. In some we paid expenses. I worked on the basis that I treated people the way I would like to be treated. However, in my case it was easier than the registered breeders situation as it was just part of the cost of doing business.

Thanks to the last few posters for their comments. I just had a look at the Registration. The bitch was not an import, so it was scored. (I was looking at two possible litters at the time so the other litter must have had the import.) And the breeder has been scoring for many generations. Sorry for the confusion, but its all a bit upsetting. (My previous one went to doggy heaven less than a year ago and this brings back all the painful memories.)

Sheesh! Boy, you guys are really picky. I am not looking for an argument. It was discussed at the time. The answer was either: Yes or the bitch was an import, and too young but her parents were fine. I just can't remember exactly word for word what was said nine and a half months ago when I started to ask detailed questions. Likewise, I also understand the initial response but now that I have provided additional information to provide a more complete picture, can we please get back to the two questions initially posed.... does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do? EDIT: Thanks to the above couple of posters for you constructive comments.

Ask 10 people about dog food and you will get 10 answers. Most comments on food are just that - comments and, unfortunately, not based on fact. That's because there is stuff all independent real research available. This is my third of this breed so I know what's required. He isn't overweight, has not been over-exercised, trained to use the ramp to get into and out of the car, and not allowed to jump etc. Nothing in writing and it wasn't really discussed. I know all about risk, the first had HD problems starting to show when it was about two. The second got a bad gut infection at 3 months that meant it was on Hills ZD for its whole life, so I am aware of the risks. I will probably get one, but the breeder has the pup and x-rays so she can get an opinion from her own vet. As I live in the country, it will take a few days to arrange. The father was scored and is regularly used as the breeders stud dog. The mother is an import and I am not sure if it was old enough to be scored. But the bitches parents were all scored. I am talking to the breeder, but wanted to know what you guys think. Is there anything wrong with that? This breeder does not put many of her pups on the main register. The vast majority are sold with limited registration. Its on the main register because the breeder was thinking about using it as an alternative stud dog. Fully understand. Hope now that I have provided more info it will put things in a better perspective.

I have a 10 month old giant breed dog (in theory show quality and on the main register) that I purchased from a well respected breeder with decades of breeding experience in the breed. He has been fed premium food exclusively (plus a bone once a week.) I have not mentioned the breed as it would probably be fairly easy to identify the breeder. Unfortunately I have just had to take him to the vet as he was not walking properly. The vet examined him and found the front left elbow had restricted movement and was painful. The pup was subsequently sedated and his elbows were x-rayed. The left elbow has bad OCD. To quote the vet, "it basically buggered and no matter what we do, it will never be right." He may also require an operation to clean up the elbow (not sure of proper terminology.) The right elbow also has OCD, but not as badly. Whilst the pup was sedated, the vet decided to also x-ray the hips just to check. One hip has the femur about half way out the joint. And the other hip is also clunky. The vet said the pain relief, glucosamine, catrophen etc will cost at least $100 a month. When I asked if the hip is likely to be a problem that may require a replacement, the answer was "that his elbows will probably give out and he will need to be euthanized before that happens." My questions to the forum is does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

Goldies Number 1 Job description - to love you Number 2 Job Description - to eat Number 3 Difference - Goldies are sensible by the time they are two Labs Number 1 Job Description - to eat Number 2 Job Description - to love you Number 3 Difference - Labs have a youthful exuberance that lasts till middle age Goldies are definitely quieter and more sensitive, and are very eager to please their owner.

Why do you think I selected the name Goofy. In all honesty, I had hoped that there would be more people here who were open to logical thought, rather than holding on to a preconceived dogma that may not necessarily be based on fact, but is undoubtedly based on emotion. About seven years ago, I happened to meet a well respected, ethical breeder. How do I know this? Because a number of Goldie Breeders told me so. She had not had a litter for 12 months and 3 bitches produced 32 pups in 3 days, and of those 32 pup, 10 were sold for either show or breeding purposes, further reinforcing her credibility. When I saw those pups, they were in large, divided shed. They were looked after by the breeder and a person that she had hired to assist because she had so many pups. She didn't have children at home. So, there were 30 ups being cared for by 2 people. I don't expect many people to be able to grasp the point I would have liked to have made with this information. This will be my last post on this subject (and probably any other) as trying to have a logical debate here with an an opposing viewpoint is pointless. So you guys just keep telling each other you everything about dogs there is to know, are always 100% right, and keep enjoy yourselves. Cheers

Nope, I have two Ragdolls and a Himalayan. Cranky (the Himmie) and Tokay are born a day apart and came home together. Ratty is a full bother to Tokay but was born 18 months later.

Clearly there is no point in my trying to carry this exchange any further. Most contributors to this thread have fixed ideas about the subject, some intentionally even looking for the possible negative in everything I write, even if none really exist, and no matter what anyone says to the contrary, their minds are closed. No point in trying to show another side of the coin and dispelling some of the myths and BS around this subject when people are arguing from a fixed, emotional viewpoint.

Three further points I should introduce to the discussion. Firstly, lets just look at this from a completely different perspective for a moment. Yes, there is no doubt that pet ownership is a huge responsibility and needs to be taken very seriously indeed. But buying a pup from some breeders looks like the exercise has a far more stringent criteria than the decision to have a human baby. For example, if you decide to have a baby, no one has to come out and check if the premises are acceptable. Oh..... and you can't take the baby back if you decide you don't like it either. Some people are actually capable of making the right decisions themselves without being vetted to make sure they know what they are doing. Now for the second point. I live in a rural area, and that's very different to a large city. One can't break wind here without it getting round town quickly. (Bad pun intended) So if my shop was one smidgeon as bad as some people would believe, I would not have stayed in business for 18 years. Yes, it is different in capitol city pet shops where thousands walk past their window everyday, but I would have been lucky to have a couple of hundred a day walk past my shop. On a very regular basis people stop me in the street and tell me how happy they are with their pups, or how well my staff has looked after them when they bought the pup. Third point...... pet shops are a very easy target because they are normally highly visible. But there is another issue that is causing a huge number of problems that gets almost no coverage. Lets examine NSW as I am familiar with their laws. In theory, according to the Companion Animal Act, all pups and kittens have to be registered by 8 weeks or when they change hands. This has been law since 1998. The Act was well intentioned but some sections of it have been a monumental failure. The responsible people comply with the act, but there are many people who are irresponsible and don't. How many times have you seen signs that say "kittens free to good home." Are those chipped as per the law? Not bloody likely, yet I have never heard of one prosecution where the rangers have gone and fined people for doing it. There is a similar problem with dogs. Fred has a GSDxRidgebackxMastif and goes and gets a RidgebackxStaffie and then breeds them and sells the pups for $100 each. This is way below the level of what is often called BYB. At least some of those are 'pleasant' crosses and are frequently chipped and vaccinated etc. Even some of the BYB do an OK job, but those irresponsible owners who don't have their dogs desexed or chipped and breed completely indiscriminately, and flog off the pups cheaply, are flying below the radar and are a very big problem. But does anyone try and do anything about it? Nope, because its to hard. Pet shops are a lot softer target.

well you should be ashamed of yourself. Anyone who says they have sold thousands of pups has no cedibility whatsoever. Actually I am damn proud of that fact. Some breeders are smart enough to know that there are a few pet shops out there that can actually do a good job of vetting potential customers. Nothing like keeping an open mind is there! As far as knowing most of the sales have been successful, that's easy. The number of return customers and those that come in on recommendation. There are a few that we sell that are given away, I would be telling porkies if I said otherwise. However I believe the numbers are small.... and yes, people do come and say that they have just bought/been given a pup that came from us originally. As far as dumping them at the pound, I am willing to have a large bet that very few of the pups we sold went that way. Yes, I agree it is a problem with many pet shops, but it was not a big issue with mine. Now how can I state that so categorically? The answer is easy. The local pound support people put up flyers in many of the local shops. The vast, vast majority of those pups listed are not the sort of pups I would have sold. eg. Staffie or X, Rotties or X, GSD or X, Malamute or X, Ridgeback or X, Bull Mastiff or X, Cattle or X, etc etc etc. Now all this aside, no matter what is said, the accreditation program had the blessing and was run and overseen by Dogs NSW, the state governing body that represents breeders.

..... continued Yep, this is a real issue. In the thousands of pups I have sold, it has occurred exactly.... give me a second.... I need to add up the numbers.... exactly once. And we helped the customer try and work through it, and after a week when it became apparent the introduction plan did not work, we took the pup back and gave the customer a refund. We tell every customer about the training requirements, not just for the shy ones. Sounds like you have got something against Bark Busters, and whilst I don't encourage people to use them, they do have some happy customers. Lets face it, some training is better than none. In my case however, we did not recommend BB, we tried to help the customers ourselves, and if intensive training was needed, one of my staff is the agility trainer at a local dog school. She would go and visit the customer and charge all of $35 an hour. Talk about being greedy and ripping off customers. Yes, the windows are a reasonable size, they are not overcrowded, they are supervised, they can't be prodded, but I guess by the sound of it, you don't think the Dogs NSW specifications and conditions were adequate. Oh, by the way, are you seriously telling me that a pup will be suffer because some people look at it through glass? Note to self, now take a deep breath before you answer this one. Yes, they were socialised. Yes I have to make money to stay in business, but the welfare of the pets in my care was always of paramount importance. We recorded every dog coming in and every dog going out. When ever there were problems we notified the breeder and they took appropriate action. If they didn't we didn't buy from them again. Yes, we would offer as much help and advise as possible and we got our vet involved too. All our pups came with a guarantee. In most cases, the answer is yes, I did inspect the premises. My problem was not selling pups, it was getting enough high quality pups. If I would have been prepared to deal with puppy farmers, that would not have been an issue, but as already stated, I refused to deal with them. I believe I have now answered every one of your questions, even though the tone of some were sarcastic, but I am willing to bet that nothing I have stated has changed your opinions one iota. Finally, I should comment on stores that let people take pups overnight. That is a complete recipe for disaster and something I would not engage in under any circumstances. There is no better way to introduce disease into the store, and even if that does not eventuate, you can bet the pup with be fed with all sorts of things it should not be eating and will have an upset stomach.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want as we are all entitled to our opinions, nut that not does necessarily mean tose opinions are correct. Interesting! Personally I completely disagree. I have sold literally thousands of pups over the years and in the vast majority of cases, it has worked. This is evidenced by the number of pups that were sold on recommendation, by word of mouth and the number of return customers after almost two decades. Secondly, I have bought a number of pure pups for myself over my lifetime and never once has a breeder inspected my place. I might add, some of those breeders are regarded as some of the very best in their class. Yep, this is a real issue. In the thousands of pups I have sold, it has occurred exactly.... give me a second.... I need to add up the numbers.... exactly once. And we helped the customer try and work through it, and after a week when it became apparent the introduction plan did not work, we took the pup back and gave the customer a refund. We tell every customer about the training requirements, not just for the shy ones. Sounds like you have got something against Bark Busters, and whilst I don't encourage people to use them, they do have some happy customers. Lets face it, some training is better than none. In my case however, we did not recommend BB, we tried to help the customers ourselves, and if intensive training was needed, one of my staff is the agility trainer at a local dog school. She would go and visit the customer and charge all of $35 an hour. Talk about being greedy and ripping off customers.

Could you list some please? For reasons of confidentiality they don't want their names made public, especially given the possible hostile reception from other registered breeders. There are some breeders that do not wish to deal with the general public. Some do not have either the time or inclination. One I remember had a complete litter stolen and so he preferred to sell his pups to me rather than advertising. Also, some live in very remote locations and its easier for them to book them into my shop the day they are born and then they don't have the problem of selling them. Now to answer some of the other questions and to make a few comments. As to what happened when they start getting to big/old, the answer is simple. As soon as it looked like becoming a possible problem, we cut the hell out of the price. Better to get some money, even if its a loss making position, then get nothing at all. Our pups were fed on Eukanuba, so its not like they were being fed cheap junk. The pups did not stay in the window at night, we had huge pens out the back of the shop. As far as stimulation is concerned, they were handled (and played with) by the staff, and also customers. They got lots of love and attention, and play time. We also tried to match up the right dog to the right home and were mostly successful. Many times someone would come in and want to buy say a Jack Russell and it would have been totally the wrong dog for them, so we would invariably talk them out of it and into the right breed for their lifestyle and circumstances, even if we didn't have it in stock. We had a book of people waiting to buy various breeds and as most breeders booked their pups in when they were born, we knew what was coming our way. It was not worth our reputation to knowingly sell the wrong dog into a bad situation. Also, because we were not in a shopping centre, most people came to us because they knew they wanted to buy a pup, rather than it being an impulse decision. Yes, there were some impulse buys, but they normally worked out for many reasons. Normally the buyers already had dogs and knew what they were getting into, or they had been thinking about buying one for ages and then saw what they had been thinking about. We also spent about an hour with each buyer after they said yes going through what they needed to do and encouraged them to contact us if they had problems or concerns. And of course, the time spent after the decision to buy was made was in addition to what was normally an extensive period of discussion prior to the decision. Finally, I point blank refused to buy from puppy farmers or bad breeders, registered or otherwise. I might add, there are some fantastic breeders who are now classified as BYB because they want nothing to do with Dogs NSW. There are also some terrific BYB that really know what they are doing. And like all areas of life were there are good and bad, there are some horrendously bad registered breeders out there that will put main registration papers to rubbish quality pups. That is not meant to be confrontational, just the facts of life.

For everyones information, the then RNSWCC ran an accreditation program for a number of years which allowed registered breeders to sell their pups to pet shops. The accreditation program was extremely difficult to get through and in reality, no pet shop in a commercial Westfields type centre had a hope of passing the stringent criteria. However, the shops that were large, well equipped and had staff that knew what they were doing, did qualify. From memory, there were about eight of them over the whole accreditation period. There are quite a number of reasons why ethical breeders actually want to deal with respected pet shops. And, it will no doubt shock some people here to know that a number of highly respected breeders did sell to pet shops (and probably still do.) As far as euthanasia of pups that don't sell is concerned, the comments made previously in this thread are 100%, pure, unadulterated rubbish and made without any factual foundation what so ever. But then many people don't let the facts get in the way of a good scare campaign or story. How do I know all this? I owned the longest accredited Pet Shop in NSW, from the inception of the program right through to the end. Given most forum members have very fixed views, I have now put on my flame retardant suit.

I have never had an issues with my cats and dogs being good mates. Here are a few examples Red and Worry Red and Cranky Red and Tokay Sherry with the three cats Goofy, Red and Tokay

Great point about the slip issue. I am sure I have seen some stuff at my local Dogalogue hardware shop. I didn't know that! You learn something new everyday, but my three have never had a problem with that in the past. The new bath, because of the slope and length, only has a couple of inches of water in it at the deep end, and very little/none at the shallow end. Yep. Understand your thinking. The rinse water starts out clean. If it turns out that the first rinse cycle does not get the the soap out, I can always flush it and refill on the go. I used one of those to wash my old Toy Poodle for many years and it worked well but its a bit hard to fit a Goldie into a laundry tub, let alone a Newfie, but your suggestion is a good one for little dogs. The way I have this set up, it would not be hard to modify the plumbing and add a separate tank (or even two) if needed. Certainly worth thinking about after a few more washes. Once all the suggestions are in, I will rework the text, so thanks for the ideas. Cheers Ric

Hi Good Peoples, First time post. I have been lurking for a while and have found some excellent information on this site, so thought it was time to try and give something constrictive back. I have put together a guide on how to build your own home hydrobath for anything between about $300 and $900, depending on how flash you want to be and how far your budget extends. The whole thing can be found herehere - complete with pictures. Cheers Ric