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THANK YOU Poodlefan. If this was Facebook, I would "Unlike" that, just so I could keep "Like-ing" it again. When my boyfriend read about the attack, his reply was "well, it happened in St. Albans, so that's not a big surprise as to one of the "whys"." Time and time again, there are CONSISTENT factors that attribute to dog attacks, especially fatal ones. The socio-economic area is a big one. Oh, and I'll put good money on the fact (hell, I'd even shave my long, gorgeous Jenn Hawkins like hair off) to say this dog was intact.

I have to admit, I have no idea who Steve Austin (I've googled, "leading dog trainer".. perhaps?). But really, let's be honest, 1/2 the problem with that statement is that the attack happened in a state that already has BSL. So does that mean when we ban them nationally, we're going to have 7 more attacks - one for each state. That type of legislation clearly didn't help this girl. Oh, and then there is the plain and simple fact that any good, internationally recognized dog trainer would never, ever say anything like that. Maybe you could 5-10 years ago when this was at it's frenzied peak, but alas, Australia is one of the few, few countries in the world that is adament that this Draconian way will ever be viable. The dog needs to be euthanized and the owner made an example of in the legal system so all his friends who thought she/he was so "legit" or whatever will think twice about having something in their possession that can inflict harm because that owner clearly lacked enough intellegence/humanity to be a responsible human being. And the stock photo, can't do it with humans because then that media outlet is labelled biased/bigots/racists. I know you can't say BSL is racist, but there are some serious parallels. I hated ABC's headline, but the article was well written and the quote that jumped out at me was, "Police say the dog is a "pitbull crossed with something else". " Well, now we'll NEVER know what the dog truly was, unless it was actually registered with council as a APBT X.. Unlikely. Such a horrible day for the dog world and that poor family. She was my first thought this morning.

Sunrise makes me sick, they did this a while ago and fortunately had Michael Linke on who shut Koshi up properly. I have no time for that channel. I download shows intentionally off the internet they air to avoid supporting them in any way, shape or form. Apparently Channel 10 is going to start up a morning show not unlike the 7pm project. With more knowledgeable presenters from a varying facets of society - I know who will get my ratings. Sunrise will get a letter from me saying as much. On the other hand, here's the link to ABC News, yet another rational media outlet. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-17/dog-kills-melbourne-toddler/2844178 Apparently police can be quoted as saying, "pitbull crossed with something else". Well, who truly know what the hell kind of dog it actually was then. It'll sound biased, but I've seen some horribly bred BYB english staffys(or bull arabs or god knows what), that if they showed up in a pound in N. America, we wouldn't call them English Staffys. Such a horrible, horrible incident. That poor, poor child. The dog was at large, and I'm sure intact - when will people learn?

"Police said the dog resembled a pit bull terrier." Well, considering there are at least 14 breeds that resemble such type; that I suspect with non-dog experts wagging tongues (aka the police & media) and a lack of breed papers we may never know if this was a pit bull, a freakishly large English Staffy, an Amstaff, or a mix of rottweiler/lab/godknowswhat. Either way, my thoughts go out to the family of the victim. As a responsible dog owner, I am so, so sickened. OSoSwift is right - may the owner of this dog be charged with Manslaughter. THAT is the only effective legislation that has been implemented elsewhere in the world that prevents tragic incidents such as this.

As I said, I have a massive soft spot for sighthounds (I'm thinking Borzoi for my next dog) so I was really quite excited when I got the request of "we have puppies for you.. & they're greyhounds". If I wasn't in full throttle mode with my other two dogs, this would be the most perfect, of perfect opportunities for a new addition. Anyways, someone else is going to be lucky! I actually tried soaking their kibble yesterday - little monkeys turned their noses up at it and went straight back to the hard kibble! In many ways, I'd feel so much more comfortable feeding completely raw - but again, it's for the ease of new owners. But I still give them raw things (chicken neck or beef soup bones) every second day, it makes me feel less guilty. GapVIC & Rebanne, roughly how much additional beef mince? ~100-150 grams each/day? Do you find greyhounds to be picky with food (like SWF) and will only eat the chosen bits, or if you make ground mince a separate meal, they are still content to eat everything put in front of them(even boring kibble)? Or have you never had issues with mixing everything each meal, it all disappears in the end, anyways? Or, of course, they're individuals and it depends.. Thanks so much!

Just looking for some advice from Grey people - especially those that have dealt with puppies. I'm currently fostering 3, 8 week old Greys from a flood affected ex-racing bitch. They aren't with GAP Qld, but I have been in contact with them & the Rescue Group that is in charge of them is/will be making contact with GAP. Anyways, as it seems that Greyhound puppies are VERY hard to get a hold of, I'm looking for some hands-on experience. I'm concerned about their eating habits. Of the male & two females, the male is the only one with what I would call a "normal" appetite. Now, I live with Amstaffs, and while I've always had a *massive* fuzzy spot for sighthounds, I'm used to beautiful chunky, muscley garbage compactors on 4 legs. The females are 4.3 & 4.7 kgs respectively, the male is just skimming under 6kg. All pups have gained ~500grams since coming into my foster care 10 days ago. For breeders, does this sound like I'm on the right track? All pups are on a worming schedule/flea control. As I'm a vet nurse, I'm very aware of obvious signs of lethargy, vomit, diarrhea, etc etc. All pups are being supplemented with additional probiotics to aid in digestion. They are on approx 1-1 1/3 cups of Royal Canin Junior/day - again, is this within normal range? I feed raw with my other dogs, so kibble is a alien thing to me (haven't fed it in a decade). I do intend to keep them on kibble just because they won't be mine for the rest of forever - but yes, are snuck a chicken neck etc, here and there My other concern is that while the male will happily eat whatever & all of set in front of him, the females will rarely consume all of their set portions in one of the 3 feeds they're given daily. They will of course, show avid interest & appetite in enticing food stuffs (chicken necks, liver treats, chicken chunkers etc etc) - seriously, I've never seen an 7.5 week old puppy scramble up a couch to climb onto the kitchen island in the search of more food.. clever monkey! So, of course, do I act weak, and cave, adding more tasty bits to encourage appetite? Or from the information I've given you, am I on an good course and just need to harden up ? Which leads me to another concern - overfeeding in a large/giant breed and the potential fallout, are they better off on restricted diet? Any feedback will be immensely appreciated.

Brought to my attention by the website/blog www.goodfordogs.org In a bit of shameless promotion, everyone should really spend 30 seconds checking out it's Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/#!/Goodfordogs Full of good little tidbits, and constant updates and press, much related to or coming from AUS. Anyways, a VERY interesting article: http://www.animallawcoalition.com/breed-bans/article/1515 Which got me thinking - obviously, this whole breed identification thing is a hot topic - and in the brave few who go through the Australian Judicial Process (Da Frey, Chivers) - What about Due Process? Because it seems that just of much of this problem with dealing with these councils/legislation is you are stripped of Due Process. I have a friend that's dealing with a Dangerous Dog Mandate from the most "beloved" Brisbane City Council - The process that she has be pigeonholed into is shocking to say the least. Of course, she's fighting it. But watching what she's had to endure, and it's obvious that many have had to go through in this country, has got me wondering.. What in the Australian Law/Constitution states that it citizens have the right to Due Process? Is there Due Process? Or, is there something that is states in all these Companion Animal Laws that, "you're naughty & breaking the law, screw Due Process!' or is the Due Process the whole thing of Breed Assessor->Temperament Assessment otherwise your dog is dead/restricted? Thoughts? Experiences? Anyone here an Aussie Law Professor? Tempted to tell this N. American to go back already ?

It's okay Rysup, I share the same "ludicrous" opinion as you.. or wait, did you say ludicrous? I can't remember, we seem to be all quote happy in the post at the moment. Anyways, I love my little 19inch, 25kg man. He's just oh so little and manageable and all sorts of proper (oooo, there's another opinion, hehehehe) Bully Breed Goodness. Speaking of Amstaffs, I had to have a creep online of your guys, your beautiful girl Paris (RIP), was a smokin' dog. Love that head. I noticed she's from Rebbull Kennels, they actually had one of my male's half sisters. No wonder I was drawn to her Oh, Poodlefan, I was writing you a reply, and then I hit the "back" button last night, d'oh! If you know whom I could contact about ACT bite stats, that would be great to have a read of. ACT doesn't seem to be that far off the rest of the East Coast as far as dog-owning demographics, so it would be interesting to see how the rest of demographics pan out. It could be something to ultimately send off to the right people/politicians. I know they don't want to see examples of how dog laws are working in other countries/continents ("why should Canada be telling us what to do, they don't have the same issues as we do".. uh huh) They need to see media friendly angles they can work. Especially if they can make an Aussie spin on it - "In the ACT they have X law, & Y law, with no emphasis on breed, & only half the number of dog bites as NSW". It's one thing I've learned about Australians (beware, painting with a broad brush) through personal experience & other tales from N. Americans down here - Aussies don't like it when someone comes Down Under and says "Do it X way" - even if that person has all the qualifications in the world to make such a statement - it comes off as "rude" and "brash", all the fine qualities of an American, hahahaha. Generally, people are much more receptive to "hey, my mate down the street did it this way, and it worked, maybe we should give it a try....?" And really you have every right to be guarded as a culture to take advice from the outside. Hell, this country was carved out by people who broke convention through a heck of a lot of hard work in some really insane circumstances. In Ontario, Cheri Dinovo MP, hasn't stood up and said "I'm removing the pit bull ban from the the law!" You'd have every grandma & media-gullible numpty freaking out about how the government is putting them in harms way. What she has stated is she'd intending on revising the law to make it more comprehensive and holding more owners accountable I mean, she has been outspoken on BSL not working, but she's being savvy about getting it through the courts. It's sneaky, but it's what's is going to remove nothing short of an animal version of genocide from that province. It's what needs to happen in Australia, because to have politician apologize for making up laws will never happen, no matter how bad the law was, they just need to tweek the legislation to make them look good. Look at good ol' Julia, if it wasn't for the fact that she was caught on tape about the carbon tax thing, she never would have admitted to making a change of policy - and even then she hasn't apologized - she's just simply said "oh, well, circumstances have changed". :D Hahaha, dodgey politicians, I do kinda love them for that stuff. Even murderers can't get away with things like that.

As Ian Dunbar points out (discussing dog to dog aggression) it's not just about the number of incidents that happen but the severity of incidents. Any anti-BSL proponent who suggests that a SWF bite is likely to be a serious as an APBT one needs to rethink that. Here's the best fact you can possibly offer about Breed Specific Legisation and community safety. BSL doesn't work. That's it. Have a good look at the Calgary approach to dangerous dogs in the community - it worked beautifully because it targetted owners and dangerous dogs. Calgary is an inspiration to the Dogworld. I'm proud to be able to lay claim to that part of the world. I think for a while, bully breed people were desperate to grab onto anything statistically that would show they didn't own the only thing on the planet that bites. But that tactic certainly does alienate many in the process. And I notice that people here Down Under more easily offend to a statement of an opinion/fact than those from Canada/States - I can wholeheartedly vouch for that on personal experience. I have to CONSTANTLY remind myself to say things nicely (like what I just said, I'm pretty sure that will rub someone the wrong way - whoops!). And I notice it when people mistake me for being American, they expect me to be so bothered by it. I'm not actually, and it can really make their heads spin. But I can remember doing to fight back in N. America, until things became more balanced, we were just desperate to show ANY kind of proof. Thankfully now, we can move away from the childlike, "Yeah, of course I was doing it... BUT HE WAS TOO!!" Finger-pointing blame game. But that's because everyone got on the same side of the fence. It's one of the reasons why I love KC Dog Blog http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/, he tells it like it is. But of course, with my recent interactions with Australians, I've noticed the style of his writing would bother some people. So people who are trying to change BSL here definitely need to take PF's stance - "BSL doesn't work. That's it" Speaking of ACT, poodlefan: Does the ACT have any dog bite statistics (I know, dreaded statistics!) that are available to the public? As you said, as the only state where APBT can be owned without restriction, I'm sure they have the most accurate breed identification (and subsequent stats) of any state. It would be nice to send those stats off to councils of other states to show them how well things are going in a state without BSL. Clearly, you guys have been doing something right down there to avoid the tide that's swept up the rest of the Eastern States.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically). That's why the tide is changing even in Ontario, one of the more recent places to enact BSL, an owner of a Rottie X Boxer ultimately had her dog seized. Ignorance knows no bounds.. That's what truly shocked me when I first came here, was the blatant ignorance by some of AST/SBT to the issue of BSL. Which is then only passed on to the rest of society - and only perpetuates the myths and the mis-identification of these types of dogs. Back in North America, we just GET IT, and I guess that why I posted what I did, and will likely continue to post some rather "obnoxious, North American style" posts, to hopefully get us all sitting on the same side of the fence Yeah, very, VERY proud to claim my Scottish ancestry now - It's such a shame the law change has stalled in Britain at the moment, but any change on that isle is a great.. and will start a tide of change

To quote ruthless "The dogs on the cover have dark eyes. I would consider them to be Amstaffs. This is a blue and white APBT. I don't think such dogs exist in Australia. http://nicolemlakarphotography.com/blog/?p=1698 I know there's the whole "they come from the same DNA" debate, but can you get Amstaffs that look like the dog in the link above?? " Just had a bonefide, purebred, pedigreed Amstaff that looked like that in our puppy class 1 month ago, if I can photoshop the faces out, I'll post a link to show you. Of course, the pup, being a born in Australia, did have natural ears. So I'd say "yes" you can get an Amstaff that looks like that dog in the above link, I think this puppy was sold to a "pet only home", but then again, the owners weren't forced to desex the dog at any time (they were still intending on doing so at 1 year of age, to get more muscle definition).. It just like "yes" you can get Blue German Shepherds, it just depends on the breeder - even though they're not supposed to exist and sure don't fit within ANY standard of the breed ANYWHERE. To quote wiseguy "American Staffordshire Terrriers have been (hopefully) bred faithfully to their registered stand, while the American Pitbull Terrier is bred to an opinion" Have you been the a N. American show (or heck, seen a N. American dog), and then been to a show Down Under lately?!? My male, stands faithfully at 19 inches. His dad stood at 19 inches, his mom, at 18 inches. All his siblings (and half-siblings) stand within the 16-18/17-19 inch heigh range set out in the CKC/AKC standard. On Friday, we desexed a male, purebred, pedigreed Amstaff that stood at 22 inches. A dog that took Ch. in a Royal Show back in 2008 stood at 22 inches. I've got some Amstaff breeders that are, in jest wanting to wring my neck for desexing my male, he is all they want in a sire. I'm about to attend a show where I have been warned that the judges are now seeking & Ch. dogs no less than 20-22 inches. Bred faithfully to their registered stand? Right....... "Do your really class that colour as ''blue''?" http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html My former Companion Animals Genetics Professor used the term "blue" - in laymans term of course. So yeah, I'd class Charcoal Grey (aka Dilution of Eumelanin and/or Phaeomelanin) as Blue - sounds prettier & more sellable to the masses anyways hehehe I think the original Liver you're thinking of is the actual liver colour, found in labs & various spaniels, to name a few breeds. To quote geo "You only have to look at AST breeders pages to see that they're also breeding to their own opinions and what they take from the standard. " "I've lost count of how many people are breeding for "solid muscle" "big bone mass" "rare blue", these people are registered breeders flaunting their wares as they think this is what people want to buy and this is the direction they feel the breed should go... " So well said Geo, I've also been forwarned at this show I'm about to attend that bone is the new "in" thing, seems like Amstaffs in Australia are heading in the direction of West Coast American Pit Bull Terriers; size, build and colour-wise. Just like many Italian/European dogs have heads and back ends on them that won't quit WITH a long, straight topline similar to many East Coast APBT I've seen - opinions of a standard. Different from the standards of my male's line, shorter toplines, dogs to within a fraction of the standard - heck, I was warned by my males breeder, "he's lost shows because of the shape he was in that week; if I put too much weight on him, he looks like a Dachshund with an Amstaff head, judges don't like that up here". But some Amstaff lines in Canada keep truer to the APBT "lanky" legs - A look I personly prefer, and I feel contributes to better movement in a true performance way. To quote wiseguy "Without predujice, the UKC standard really is a pakapoo ticket for this breed in any case. How can a genuine pure breed defining standard have a weight differential ranging from 35 to 60 pounds for the same breed & expected to be taken seriously" That's no different than the Amstaff in Australia today. My male is 25kgs, 26kg on a fat day. The purebred, pedigree Amstaff we desexed on Friday walked in on the scales at 34.5 kilos. That's a weight range of over 20lbs.. Is that really so different from the UKC weight range? This Amstaff puppy I had in puppy class had the pleasure of meeting my female, who is, according to AKC standards, massive & out of the standard (29 kgs (64lbs) & 20.5 inches.) The owners of this puppy loved her but gave funny looks at her.. To quote them "What breed is she? (Oh, well she's an Amstaff, but she's not of show quality because she's too large for the standard) Really? Because our boy's dad is even bigger than she is"... At which point in time, my head started to explode. I won't go into your comparision of the SBT up to Bull Mastiff size, I'm seeing that range in ANKC pedigreed dogs. You really shouldn't be looking to blame the UKC for having the sole (albeit, loose) interpretation of a standard. Frankly, you have no right to get on your high horse with what I've actually been seeing in the real world and in the show ring - that's right, the ANKC show ring. To quote wiseguy "I think you are well off the mark with the 30-35lb average" I don't think you've met enough perfomance (and I don't mean fighting) APBT's. But you are right, the what is commonplace is within the 40-50lb mark. The beauty of a nice APBT is that there isn't a lot of conditioning needed to get a *smart* looking dog of 40lbs, they just ARE. Until I came to Australia, I had never seen SBT's so big.. that being said, we don't have many in N. America comparatively, but they're thick here. To quote geo "Funny how the AKC wont recognise them as a pure breed, but had opened it's stud books to them. As for your last comment i do find that extraordinary, most likely tit for tat." You sir (or madam), ;) To quote wiseguy "So why ban the branch of the family that has been faithfully bred to a standard for 75 years, the true APBT, as opposed to a type that no one can agree what the hell it is suppose to look like?" This post seems rather vague, and you're leaving it open for interpretation - I assume you're interpreting the ANKC/AKC/CKC/FCI to have the true APBT? But then again, they haven't ever acknowledged them as ABPT... *sigh* You're lucky you're voicing this opinion in an Australian (& rather, pro-ANKC) forum - I know people back home that would roast you for that comment. But then again, we all carry guns over there and support GW blindly, right? Again, you harp on about how the UKC has this broad range of sizes/looks for varying lines. You haven't looked outside this country for what they interpret as Amstaffs. I could go on, and on about how some Amstaff lines (particularily those in Aus) have the most oddly shaped heads, ever so different than those of the rest of the world, or as I showed with actual examples above, size variations no different to the UKC. But then the further I read into this, the more I came to realize you're just one of these people that believes that it's not a dog if it doesn't have papers - and papers that will specifically get it to Crufts.. ooooo Crufts, the biggest, most over-inflated beauty pageant in Dogdom. But again, the performance world & show world have really, never been able to agree on what will be "THE Standard". Nor, do I think they ever will see eye-to-eye. But that's not a bad thing, imho "G.B. has declared them to be APBTs, the Queensland judiciary has declared them to be the same breed, Ontario Canada has declared them to be the same (along with the SBT I hasten to add) Banned the three of them." Most government bodies in North America ban all 3 types of the bully breeds (APBT, AST, SBT). They, like I do, recognize the little difference in the breeds, no matter the registry. It's only Australia (who blindly, I might add, followed Britain in the joke that is BSL) that seems to think their ANKC registered dogs are so damn special. But that's what happens when you're an island nation.. You say you want ACO's (and other dog professionals) who can identify AST? They would peg my male as an APBT because he has cropped ears (that's a direct comment from them) - Shelter staff in some areas are identifying AST on size... are they within the ANKC standard of 18-19 inches? Yes? AST. No? APBT. So what does that say of your precious ANKC dogs..? Under those professionals, they would kill many of you "to standard" dogs. Identifying, even by the "professionals" is such a convoluted matter. Just like you're making this such a convoluted issue - for what? To prove that the because AKC opened it's registry to Amstaffs, and that makes them legit.. again, legit to whom? Just because a German Shepherd is registered to the ANKC doesn't really make it legit to those who practice VPG/IPO.. and techniqually, if Germany, if a German Shepherd doesn't acheive an IPO in VPG (formally known to the public as Schutzhund), the dog is a useless animal in breeding circles/betterment of the breed. Your mindless prattle about these, at best debateable minutia of the pit bull type breed is exactly why this country can't resolve it's Breed Specific Legislation problems. And, in all likelihood, you've turned many people new to this forum off discussion on this topic - which, I might add, was moving in a good direction of education, understanding and straight-forward discussion.

Be careful about long term use of anti-inflammatory use long term - it is potentially very harmful to kidney function. I'd be tempted to find out if you can get into a vet sooner than next week. Even if you got the vet at Animal Wellness to do some acupuncture to hold you over until you saw Animal Options. My boy's back was spasming so bad once he was almost folded in two, knowing that a conventional vet would have just sent him home with Rimadyl (anti-inflam) I sought other options, I got into what ended up being this holistic clinic at the end of that day (or maybe the next day? can't remember) he walked out after acupuncture with the longest, straightest back I had seen on him since his show days back at the age of 1 1/2. I doubt the same thing would happen to your girl (a complete 180), but if your dog can atleast get some assistance over the weekend to get her to make it to the big appointment next week, it really might be worth a shot. That's what I like about acupuncture, at worst it's a few needles here and there, no drugs with potential side effects

Animal Wellness Veterinary Clinic in Greenslopes. Worked alongside Dr. Rowan @ Animal Options, so she's very holistic - but isn't afraid to do a full blood workup, & dispense the traditional meds... even if you're likely to walk out with 2-3x the amount of chinese herbs & supplements. Another thing about supplements, you'll often find they won't work overnight like an Anti-Inflammatory. The Glucosamine/Chondriton supplement I'm giving my dog has a loading dose ( aka higher dose) of two weeks before you move to a day-in-day-out dose rate. Initial consultation is $130, but you will get an hour with her, and that will include acupuncture. She's also done VOM (Veterinary Orthopedic Manipulation) on my dog's neck vertebrae - I think that the same thing as "dog chiropractor". Could turn his head back towards both shoulders an equal amount after that And since Greenslopes is just down the corner from, well Stone's Corner, it's not a far drive compared to some clinics for Brisbanites. Hope this helps

So can I just clarify..? " the fact that it had light eyes and a red nose although makes her scary does not indicate that she is Pit Bull??? " - So this woman assessed the dog as a SBT? Do you understand that according to the AKC/CKC that a SBT can have as the breed standard, "Eyes: dark preferable but may bear some relation to coat colour." and in regards to colour, "Coat and Colour - Coat smooth, short and close to the skin. Colour red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any of these colours with white. Any shade of brindle, or any shade of brindle with white. Black and tan or liver colour not to be encouraged.". Okay, so she took a very liberal interpretation of the standard. And frankly, I'd take the breed standard of the AKC over the ANKC anyday. Continent of 400 million people over the island of what, 25 million people.. To quote you, "Our breed is now known as the most dangerous dog in Australia. This is caused by the mismanagement of Dogs NSW " Mismanagement indeed, you failed to realize back in the late 1990's into 2001 that what effects one will ultimately effect all. Dogs NSW/ANKC thought that if they painted the target on the back of the APBT that their precious breeds would remain safe. You have failed your dogs so badly, you turned the notorious Nanny Dog into a headline breed. I only knew B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L English Staffie Bulls back in Canada. Here in Australia I have met mostly anything but, I'll take a proper American Bully over what is in this country any day. Oh yeah, and God how you guys have bred them big over here. Have you people not watched what happened in N. America, they just starting banning everything with a blocky head, square muzzle & short hair? Or did you really think DoucheBags would stop owning Blocky Headed-Square Muzzled, Short Haired Breeds? Mismanagement indeed. But then again; purebred, pedigreed Staffordshire Bull Terriers are constantly turning up in Dog Fighting busts all over North America now. Again, the lines continue to blur. If you're still with me Kim, perhaps you should take these suggestions: 1) Get on board with the few of us that are trying to do something about Breed Specific Legislation. Make it known to all Staffie people that you as a club are going to tackle this thing head on AT THE ROOT. Because you've now realized that the target has moved on to your back, and no dog will be safe until Responsible Owner Legislation happens. 2) Repeat step one, because they tighter you attempt to control what is and isn't an English Staffie, the more blood that will be on your breed clubs hand. How many more perfectly good dogs have to die? 3) Talk to some N. American English Staffordshire Bull Terrier Clubs, I'm sure they'll give you some support, and tell you about how the Breed Specific Legislation is as just as much your issue as it is anyone else's. 4) Just repeat Step 1 already. Cause we all know that genetics, unless it's mitochondrial DNA, are actually quite vague - heck, even my guys are Staffordshire Bull Terriers. And if you guys want to turn the genetic diversity of the English Staffie into that of the Pug.. well then, Breed Standards & who interprets what as which are really going to be the least of your worries. But hey, you're an island, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world has done, it's been "working" here. 5) Promote non-breed specific Responsible Dog Ownership laws.. you'll get English Staffies that the vets I work for be proud to handle and have in clinic. But really, that again just goes back to Step 1. When I first read this topic, I was surprised as to why more people didn't respond. Then I realized that it was a SBT person crying for help - and few people didn't want to "sound obnoxious" like this North American just did. Maybe you now know how the rest of the Bully Breed People felt when they wrote back years ago asking for help.

Hopefully this link posts.. and yes, you should be able to watch it here Down Under http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/video...-comeback/6676/ So... anyone care to tell me which ones are Pit Bulls? Which ones are "Staffys". Wait, I'll give you a hint, Little Johnny (the Black and White one) is an AKC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier... I encourage everyone to buy Jim Gorant's book. Heck, I've purchased a few, and have handed many out to my veterinarian friends - and I've got a few packed and ready to go to some SE QLD politicians one day

Actually, they do. Though because the kennel clubs that hold the standards don't operate in full here. The Kennel Clubs that recognize the APBT and hold a standard for the breed are the United Kennel Club (UKC) & the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA). If you go to www.google.ca (not www.google."com" - that's a whole other post) and look it up, you should be able to find each respective kennel club and their standards for the dogs

And hey, I can argue that "point" (no sarcasm there, just using your exact word) - My male is a FCI/Canadian Kennel Club registered (and the CKC is a ANKC recognized body) American Staffordshire Terrier. I've researched the lines on his pedigree papers, which might I add are Belgium & Spanish lines - There is no detectable American Pit Bull Terrier dogs on those papers. So yeah, I could get uptight, but I don't. But I also realize what my dog looks like to Joe Public, and as I said in my original post, there was nothing stopping me from walking into a UKC/ADBA breed registry office and registering him as an APBT. And his characteristics fit perfectly into the type of dog that he is - and that honestly knocked my elitist Amstaff head around when he first became dog aggressive. But wait, the more I asked around in the Amstaff world, the more I found out that even show dogs can be "Hot".... oh yeah, and that his dad was "Hot". Bloody Hell I'm proud for people to call him a "pit bull" because well, that's what he is. Remember, it those two words just define a TYPE of dog.. AND if they use it in the right way; no one in Aussieland calls him that except for my b/f and his brother, why? They don't use with all the negative connotations.. that and one's a pilot in the Airforce, the other is a firefighter, so these men are professionals, not "bogans" wanting to "represent", or show off, or do whatever they do in this country. It's a term like "Weiner (Sausage) Dog" Standard Dachshunds, Mini's and Wire-Haired Dachshunds all fit into that type, don't you think? - oh and wait.. as I read my "The Encyclopedia of The Dog" by Dr. Bruce Fogle, it states that, "In Germany.... they are categorized by chest circumference". Isn't that interesting how a dog might fit into one description here in the ANKC, but can easily slide into a different "breed" classificationin another country (like Germany) or they're all just one breed (like in the USA)? :p But the overall purpose is the same, and all the "different" breeds all fall into a bell curve of traits and tendencies that are commonplace to the type.

Depends on what you want to know about "differences"? Do you want to know which one(s) is legal, which one isn't? About differences in temperaments, or physically? I think the bottom line is that it depends on what country you're from as far as the "differences" of the breed. In Australia, Amstaffs and APBT mustMustMUST (OMG) MUUUUUST be different dogs. In North America - it really doesn't matter (And look, I was involved in the Amstaff show world back in Canada - so I do have an idea) the reason for this? Well, from what I can tell, when the poop started to hit the fan a couple of things happened - and please, anyone who had their thumb on the pulse of it all at the time is free to correct me. 1) In Australia there is no large scale Kennel Club (like the UKC, or the ADBA) that could stand up for the right of APBT here in Aussieland. And I daresay the N. American based UKC and ADBA didn't support their registered breeders down here in lobbying against the laws, 2) In the ANKC, some Amstaff and Eng Staffy groups/breeders made a point to segregate them from the rest of the bully breed world. Why? Well, it's easier to pretend that you're not part of "those people" than to actually look at the bigger picture and realize what effects one affects us all. ReadySetGo said it best "deals were made". A great example of this is the most recent garbage that came from news.com.au/the Sydney Herald in an article titled "Dog Attacks on Children on the Rise".. Now the article stated the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was NSW's #1 biting dog. And someone (I think he even title himself as a Staffy Bull Breeder) quipped on the comments that "well those stats are skewed because everyone who owns a Bully breed calls them "Staffys" and that a lot of those people who own "Staffys" are just registering them as that to keep them safe from the laws." And it's quite likely true, but that's the hole the ANKC people have dug for themselves - they've turned the internationally renowned Nanny Dog into a statistical nightmare, and that's such a shame. Deals continue to this day - when Kylie Chivers challenged the GCCC for her dog and the Supreme Court declared Amstaffs = APBT, APBT = Amstaff. A lot of Amstaff people started to panic, next thing you know there's an announcement at the Brisbane Royal Show (I think, I probably have the locale wrong) that "‘(3) Also, the breed American pit bull terrier does not include a dog of the breed American Staffordshire terrier.’" (Part 3 Amendment of Animal Management (Cats and Dogs) Act 2008, Pgs 12 and 13) - It goes to show the deals are still on - to anyone from the outside, the fact that this announcement was made AT an ANKC dog show... well, you get the idea. It just smacks of the back door dealings happening. Oooook, so now onto the physical differences. I think there's a heap of good threads in here but I think one internet pages sums it up quite nicely. From www.pbrc.net " ”Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Remember: in most cases, we usually know little about the background of rescue dogs. Some may be gamebred APBTs (from fighting lines), some may be registered show dogs, some may be American Staffordshire Terriers, some may look like APBTs but might be mixed with other breeds, etc. Since there is no way to know for sure unless you have the pedigree of the dog, we recommend following the advice offered by PBRC for any pit-bull-type dog (most of our guidelines are, at any rate, simply basic rules of dog ownership). See PBRC's FAQ for more information. " http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html And here's a link to FAQ - which does an absolutely brilliant job of describing how the lines are muddied in N. America (which ultimately has muddied the lines down here). And look, the ANKC and the AKC are sister organizations/kennel body's. So keep that in mind - http://www.pbrc.net/faq.html Still with me? So as pbrc.net pointed out, some dogs are dual registered - here's an example, of a kennel with dogs I know personally: http://www.yorkkennels.com/baronandfaithsale.html So, whoever took those dogs on, would be able to import them legally into Australia, breed with them, show them and legally sell puppies to dance around an ANKC show ring - unless of course they produced a chocolate/red-nosed pup, because the ANKC doesn't allow chocolate or red nosed Amstaffs into the ring - the N. American AKC does it's just harder to Ch. title those dogs.. And then take the dogs back home and show them as APBT. Now, this doesn't mean ALL Amstaffs are registered ABPT, and it sure doesn't mean that ALL APBT's are registered Amstaffs. But as I was explaining to someone at a recent Delta Society workshop "It just depends on the lines. Some lines are more like brother and sister, others are more like cousins"... ultimately though, they are the same TYPE of dog and I'll go into to this more later. The bottom line - in the 1800 & 1900's they were the exact same dog, then kennel clubs got a hold of them... and we've molded them to suit our purposes, Amstaff groups didn't want dogs with more than 80% white? Well, they either went back to be registered as APBT or the Bull Terrier people got a hold of them, changed the shape of their heads and therefore created a new "breed". Weighed less than 15 kgs, and was a short little chunky butt (Even if his parents were pit fighters, the dog just happened to be a litter runt)? He'll fit into a SBT standard. And take note, in the 1970's the AKC re-opened its stud books to APBT's to widen up the gene pool... and yes, 30+ years (and god knows how many generations in that time) between then and now is a long time, but not that long when you look at the looooong and incredible history of these types of dogs. Heck, even Boston Terriers come from the same family... The immortal Stubby has been claimed by all of those breed fancier groups. Scroll down to halfway on the PBRC Breed Info page link I sent you (dog in goggles), what would most of us call that dog??? Hmmmm? It would be an interesting poll! And up until earlier this year (or perhaps 2009?), you could proverbially walk your AKC pedigreed Amstaff into an ADBA/UKC office and be able to register him as an APBT. It was just the way it worked in N. America Now you see where the lines are muddied. And it's SUCH a hotly contested debate. And honestly, I know Amstaff people in Canada that would swear to you until they were blue in the face that Amstaffs are NOT APBT - and they have the pedigree to back it up... unless of course one of their puppy buyers took the dog to an ADBA office and then registered the dog as an APBT... and I know APBT breeders that want "nothing to do with those watered-down Fabio's". But frankly, I don't think it really matters all that much. If my pedigreed retired show male ended up in a shelter in Los Angeles or Vancouver. They'd classify him as a "pit bull"... why? Well, the likelihood of me losing him with his pedigree papers tied around his neck is pretty un-freaking-likely. If he ever landed in a shelter down here - they'd slap a "pit bull" title on him as well, why? He has cropped ears, unlike some of the Amstaff lines I've seen here he's got a very N. American style head - long in the nose with a broad full muzzle, a pronounced stop... and you bet your bum he's to standard, his parents have won titles in Europe, Canada, U.S. and S. America. The shelter I worked at back in Canada called all dogs they took in of that type Amstaffs, why? When they advertised the dogs for adoption, it made them more appealing to families and less appealing to scumbags. And guess what, we do it down here in Australia as well, and I would know; I worked at an RPSCA in NSW. I've seen female come in CAR registered as APBT (owner didn't claim, so she legally had to be held for 14 days) - But guess what, no one bothered to inform council that she whelped a litter within a couple of days of coming in. 6 weeks later this RPSCA had 6 "Staffy crosses" up for adoption. I've seen a 22 point check list done on a dog (such a farce, I know)... a shelter favourite. He's now "an Amstaff". This dog, http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/202_32923.jpg?30626 is currently up for adoption in New York as an APBT/Amstaff, and I'd put really good money that a shelter down here would call her Staffy X. Go back to the website, www.pbrc.net and look at a chunk of the dogs available for adoption, how many of them would be called "Staffy" or "Staffy X's" down here? How many of them would you see walking down the street? I know I've seen lots of them. http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/4922_18744.jpg?73088 - Described as a "pit bull mix"... he is 80+ lbs (~37 kgs) after all http://www.respect-a-bull.com/adoptabledogs.htm - All such brilliant dogs, look at the puppies... what would they have been called down here? Oh and what about "Buster"? And god, the amount of times I've seen "Blue" down here in vet clinics I work at. And for some stupid reason, they're getting so freakishly popular. Or go to Yagoona's Adopt-A-Pet webpage, there's a STUNNING "Alaskan Malamute X Bullmastiff", among many, many other American Staffy X's.. Which good on the RSPCA for calling them Amstaff, I like how they're using the name. Not letting the power only be used by a certain group of people. Even in Brisbane/QLD the RSPCA is starting to use the term Amstaffs for some of their adoptable dogs (including a handsome cream coloured male *gasp!*)... but wait, the RPSCA isn't an ANKC approved body... how can they be Amstaff?!?!?!?! (Please note the sarcasm in that) To quote Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Though honestly, after spending time in Australia, I'm half tempted to change the word "rose" to "flaming pile of poo” and sweet into... well, I think you get the idea. The government, kennels clubs, ET all honestly thought that if you changed a name, all the problems with the name would go away. And this is where the problem really is. It hasn't changed the problems. Fatal dog attacks have not gone away, more bites than ever are being reported each year that passes, you have Staffordshire Bull Terriers leading the bite statistics. I watched a proper Eng Staffy brought into the RSPCA to be surrendered - why? At the dog beach earlier that day he got into a dog fight. He grabbed, held and shook the other dog. Was he an APBT? My aforementioned male pedigreed Amstaff does the same thing if he gets into a fight - does that automatically make him an American Pit Bull Terrier? At the Perth Royal Show, I heard some of the male handlers talk about how even though it wasn't appropriate, they loved see how one of the males got on top of the carrier of another Amstaff and the two dogs had a snarf-fest, only stopping because the people got in there and intervened.. Something about "nice to see they still have their original purpose in them". My female rescue, Autumn spent the first four years of her life in doggie daycare, and is a social dream... does that make her an Amstaff, or because she does the Staffy frog sprawl & crawl when you scratch her butt and chortles, an Eng Staffy? But wait, I know the kennel her mom came from... they don't have Eng Staffys. Because you keep calling them "Staffys" Australia has forgotten one of the most important part of the dogs' name (and it's in ALL the breeds, APBT, SBT, AST) - Terrier. They are a large Terrier, and all need to be supervised, trained, and managed appropriately. For Christssake, most people can't manage the 5 kg Jack Russell Terrier, why does anyone think it's easier to handle a 15 or even 30 kg Terrier? And then there's also the fact that in N. America, many of the dog fight busts are churning out... guess what? These funny little gremlins that could only be called Staffordshire Bull Terriers and crosses there of. The ground breaking case of Michael Vick showed us that even AKC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier are landing in the ring. Why? Well again, it could be they're all the same type of dog. But I've heard/seen (and tend to believe) that it has more to to do with size. Many APBT and some Amstaffs are becoming VERY large (especially on the West Coast, and yes, within the standard) - they're breeding back to the originals to produce an "ideal" dog (no more than about 40 lbs.. or ~17 kgs). I love showing this pic http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.html to Aussies; it makes their heads spin. All dogs in that large picture were taken from the Michael Vick bust - but do you know how many times I've heard "but, that look like X..." I hope that's given you perspective, or an idea of just how messed up it is and I apologize I went so long. It really honestly depends on the breeder, and how well that person knows his line and his lines history. But your all breeds judge was vaguely right, they are the same dog (or maybe more specifically, type.. or hell, it's just as likely one is a subset of the other – think Dachshund and Wire-Haired Dachshund), some just have more exclusive invitations to certain events than others. And I can say as a Purebred, Pedigreed Amstaff owner that I feel like the person with the designer dress who has an “in” to the party because my best friend is boinking the host... Meanwhile my twin sister feels left out because she doesn’t have that same best friend or fancy dress... and I know that feeling too because I own a rescued Amstaff/Bully Breed/godknowswhat . But as “twin sisters” our characteristics, mannerisms and looks are so much that same that anyone could tell that we’re from the same family.

Best of luck, I hope you bring them legally to their knees! Or the dogs show up on Rangi's doorstep at the crack of dawn wrapped in a bow.. But I think you've got all you need to continue making them look like two-timing fools in court Rebecca

VERY interesting indeed.. Any word on what's the next step? Are we writing letters to councils/state reminding them of this fact? Count me in - We're supposed to be moving to Ipswich/Brisbane City in the next 3 weeks. My female, Autumn could really use the additional protection. Otherwise, they're going to have to deal with one raging Canadian

So true, My Spanish/Belgium line Amstaff (born in Venezuala, raised in Canada, Father has sired numerous titled Amstaff litters in Canada, even some of the line is found here in Aus) is apparently only 0.23 percent American Staffordshire Terrier according to the BITSA test. Riiiiiight - because somehow I paid a lot of money for a pedigreed "mutt" that some silly kennel organization back in Canada would let me step into the ring with. And I can to this day step into any cccg/dogs nsw show ring and make a run for a title. Still, interesting to ponder Rebecca

Yes, any progress in that part of the world is welcome. Besides, here in Aussieland & the majority of it's Dogdom seemed so keen to follow their particular course of action that maybe, just maaaaybe we can look forward to us playing copycat to them once again. In like a decade. Honestly, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this. The important thing is to continue to support and remind any friends/family/colleagues in the UK that this is a pressing issue that parliment should continue to move through the necessary processes and that they need to be reminding their MP's of it throughout the rest of this long, dragged out process. Not just when the media covers it here and there. Because, all it might take is one overblown media spew from a bully breed/rottie/mastiff/something over 10 kgs attack to cause a million letters from a whole swack of 90-year-ol' Bitty's demanding irrational "safety" to derail this. Rebecca