55chevy

Life is not fair and other avenues are either risky or unethical. Children's safety has to be the priority. Children's safety is important but it was due to mischievious children that this problem came into being. There are other methods that can be adopted. The dog can be isolated when kids are over. Where there is a will, there is always a way! Perhaps boarding the dog overnight for the occasional sleepover or as the OP has stated, restricting it to one part of the backyard. Killing a dog that is loving and affectionate with members of its own family and relatives alike deserves far more than to be destroyed. That will only work if there is absolutely no chance that an unfamiliar child could accidentally wander into the dog's territory. It would require construction of a special enclosure for the dog, and perhaps changes to house and yard locks. That would restrict Nicole's children's current lifestyle, as Nicole explained "We live in a little court and the kids have friends in 5 different houses they play with on a daily basis and I am always on edge worrying incase a door gets left open". Providing exercise for this dog will require special consideration, as well as controlling the environment to avoid the dog becoming anxious about anything in future. It doesn't matter now why this dog is unhappy around strange children to the point of aggression, or whose fault that was. What is important is that no child is bitten by this dog. Nicole needs to consider all of the options and what is going to work for her now. Yes, when there is a will there is always a way, but there are huge risks to be considered too. No dog is bullet proof with strange kids and many child bites occur from dogs that have no history of aggression but too often dog owners are over confident that their dog will never react and relax supervision on a false sence of secuirty. With a reactive dog, you know it most likely will react, you deal with the situation and take responsibility to ensure it doesn't happen. There is more chance of a child being bitten by over confident owners believing their dog is bullet proof than a responsible owner who takes precautions to secure their reactive dog properly IMHO.

You can fix the reactivity on leash NicoleL, but respectfully I wouldn't hold hope under Delta type training. Perhaps a chat with Nekhbet or Erny here may assist with better plans to rehabilitate the reactive behaviour given you are in Melbourne Whoops, didn't see Nekhbet's offer before posting..........grab the opportunity with both hands NicoleL

I had a GSD once like that who was a bit insecure with people that didn't belong in his enviroment in the home from a saftey aspect we couldn't trust him to interact with them. He was also perfect with us, well trained and obedient but ideally hated strangers in the home. Even after thorough training and desensitisation, testing on leash in controlled circumstances etc, sometimes unfortunately you can have a dog with a temperament that's not completely trustworthy in the circumstances your describe. With our old boy, we used to either keep him in a spare room when visitors were over or bring him out to lay around with us on leash. He never did react when on leash and possibly may have been ok, but having a history of taking an odd lunge, we couldn't take the risk to have him mingling around people he didn't know well. It was a bit painfull in those circumstances having to put him away and supervise him with visitors, but you live with it and accept the quirk and it really wasn't a major deal and easily managed, we loved him and apart from that bit of extra supervision, he was a great dog.

Lovely constructed 2 cents worth Erny People often have the wrong impression which you have clearly pointed out. It's not about acting in an aggressive way with the dog in violent emotion. An aversive correction is an emtionless fast and calm counteraction to an aggressive reaction. I have found that when a dog is more likely to redirect aggression towards the owners adminstering an aversive, is when the aversive is met with yelling and screaming at the dog to demonstrate a loss of control and composure on the owners part which can elevate the aggression to a higher level.

I agree Nekhbet, you made a good assessment in the circumstances. Training people how to train their dog does present the greatest challenge. Having the ability and experience to train a dog yourself and determining a routine for dog owners to follow within their capabilities is two different things, I do understand that, nice post, thanks I think Koehler may have traded in his nose whacker for an E collar and his choker for a prong and taken advantage of modern technology

My middle boy 3years old at the time wasn't overly fond of small dogs and puppies, we knew that when introducing our puppy and kept the 3 year old on leash and the pup in the crate. The 3 year old attempted to growl and lunge at the crate on the initial introduction and was corrected for the behaviour. There were 3 incidents in total with the 3 year old and puppy in crate until the boundaries were set. We didn't let the pup and 3 year old interact for a month until he got used to the pup's presence in the crate where they ended up licking each other through the wire acting in a friendly manner. We kept the 3 year old on leash 3 or 4 times in their initial interactions together in the flesh, but a year later today, they are good friends and have never experienced any aggression issues between them todate.

Although what you're experiencing now probably isn't gender related are you prepared for the fact that it might be later on? What made you go out and get another male rather than a female? Worse fights I have ever seen are female/female or a dominant female attacking a male. I prefer males together any day, they seem to sort out their differences less aggressively and don't hold a grudge as easily :D There are exeptions to the rule, but males together is not destined to result in fighting at all.

Not always. This is not a cut and dry thing and I am frankly as sick of hearing this as I am of hearing that hands off cures all dogs. I deal with mostly aggression problems and I do use punishment to fix SOME not ALL. It comes down to the individual dog. having dealt with enough of them I dont think backing down if its what will fix the dog is the way to go. I know a few working GSDs where handler aggression is genetic. Sometimes you do have to take the risk to fix the dog BUT you have to know what the hell you're doing unless you want to end up with stitches. I have had a couple of dogs redirect on me and I can tell you they changed their minds about after I was done with them - and the redirection was from frustration at not being able to tear their target into a million pieces not because I corrected them. 55chev I know where you are coming from. But not every human is capable of being firm. You have to choose a way that lets the dog know what is right and wrong but at the same time I would never put a client in harms way. I deal with a BIG bull arab once and he was a pure bully, having attacked 2 out of 3 members of the house and possessing the daughters bedroom. He was fixed in a hands off manner because I can tell you, if you want to start a physical fight you better be capable of finishing it with a dog that has learned to bite its intended target. The OP needs to get a behaviourist in, not ask advice off the internet. Aggression + advice from people who dont know what is actually happening is quite dangerous. The Bull Arab spoken of is one dog you would hope which ever method used taught some clear boundaries.........wouldn't be pretty for a dog like that to forget the rules Seroiusly though Nekhbet, was the hand's off approach used as the safest option, I sincerely understand if it was in the circumstances, or was a hand's off approach really the best method for the particular dog's rehabilitation success???, just interested :D

William Koehler knew a hell of a lot more about dogs than to: * ever provide advice on dealing with aggressive behaviours in a dog he'd never met * suggest that a one size fits all approach would work just as well on high drive working GSDs as all other dogs * dispense advice to inexperienced dog owners dealing with aggression to "tackle the issue head on" on an internet forum. If you want to make Koehler your role model best you keep that in mind. You might also bear in mind that its not "political correctness" to attempt to deal with issues without confrontation. Cesar Milan may be willing to take a dog on and risk a bite but the likely outcome for a pet that does it to its owner is a needle. You might also note that he advises pet owners not to try his methods themselves. Few members of this forum oppose the use of physical or other corections in appropriate circumstances. They just don't see them as always the first tool out of the toolbox. Save the sermons on political correctness for another day. I am sorry Poodlefan, your response is difficult for me to understand Are you saying in your key points that Koehler "didn't" do the things mentioned???..........he wrote books on exactly how to administer corrections, one size did fit all, and advice from him was dispensed to anyone who purchased his publications which mystifies me as to what your debate is actually about???. There were no qulaifications of experience required for eligibility to purchase Koehler's books and give his methods a try, so please elaborate upon the statements you have made, as I really don't get your angle???. This is three times now that I have clearly stated that: PROFESSIONAL ADVICE NEEDS TO BE SOUGHT, and for last time, I will repeat, I have NOT advised an inexperienced owner to undertake corrective measures of aversive exercises themselves, that we DO agree on :D There are PLENTY of trainers and behaviourists who's marketing approach is the basis of anti aversive methods and are highly critical of any tools of the trade that misused may harm a dog which is used as an angle of political correctness because to the average pet owner, non aversive training sounds better than applying an E Collar or a prong. But the point I ask, is what's more important, the ability to use a particular training method, or the ability to rehabilitate the dog???.

[Warning: Rant with apologies to the OP] I love the way the term 'political correctness' has become virtually meaningless except as a way of disparaging a position someone doesn't agree with. 55chevy, I don't suppose it could possibly be that those advocating a position different from yours could be doing so based on research, experience, or an alternate model/understanding of canine behaviour or human-canine interactions? How about a coherent, rational, well thought out discussion or argument between those advocating different philosophies and practices of dog training/behaviour management? The alternative, labelling opposing views as merely examples of 'political correctness', appears like intellectual laziness or worse. If you think your approach is vastly superior to an opposing approach, rationally explain why you think so rather than set up a false dichotomy between the 'political correctness' and what is usually represented as 'common' or 'good' sense. Di [Rant over] Sure Di, one of the renown trainers of aggression rehibilitation was William Koehler, but the mention of Koehler's name in modern society places many people hand in face with disgust...........why..........because Koehler couldn't fix the dog???, no, Koehler fixed the dog alright and stopped the aggression forthwith, but some people didn't like the way he did it in the vein of humanity and what if's leading to the aspect of political correctness of dog training. It's not a whole lot different nowdays with the anti Cesar Milan group who often pride themselves more on they have trained without an aversive as a priority over what they have actually fixed. As an example, a person had a highly driven working line GSD that used to go nuts when seeing the leash anticpating a walk. She would jump at the owner, bark, snap and carry on like a nucklehead in this situation. What the owner was taught to do was use a tug toy in drive to make the dog behave through the initial period of excitement on a command and release for reward basis which worked extremely well until the day he leashed the dog up forgetting the tug toy and she ramped up and bit the owner on the upper arm causing 27 stitches in a hospital admission. The dog's behaviour was managed by an alternative behaviour applied with the command and release for reward method, but was never taught that jumping and snapping at the owner in prey driven arousal was not acceptable behaviour. The dog later was retrained and conditioned with an E Collar aversively to correct the behaviour which could have been done in the first place and the owner avoided the trauma of being bitten by his dog if the behaviour was tackled head on instead of creating diversion exercises to merely manage the problem not fix it.

Inexperienced people often either over-do or under-do punishment. Over doing it and under doing it are both dangerous. We run a 5 dog household. One is a resource guarder. We feed all the dogs separately with a combination of crates and baby gates. If food/bones are not consumed after 15 minutes they are taken up and thrown away, including from the resource guarder. I think the resource guarder (who is more bonded to me) has tried growling at OH once. He has never tried growling at me. OH did not punish, OH just calmly took the bone away. Punishing this dog would not have worked, what worked was calm leadership. You have managed the situation responsibly and avoided aggressive situations unfolding which is a good thing in the household, but you haven't addressed the real issue is what I am saying. Take the crates and baby gates away, feed them all together and it's likely the resource guarding still remains and the offending dog hasn't learned anything towards the culling of aggressive behaviour. As an alternative measure, you could fit the offending dog with a E collar and zap it when acting aggressively obviously under professional supervison and teach the dog clear boundaries and consequences of aggressive behaviour. Aversive methods work extremely well to cure aggression, but the skill is administering the correct level of aversion to suit the particular dog which requires professional consultation being generally too much for the average owner to apply.

It's not the politically correct answer - its based on observation. The Omega dog in my pack (a bitch) will not surrender food to the alpha - she'll take it and she'll defend it. Pack dynamics are not a straight hierarchical model - those notions went out the window decades ago. So spare me the accusations of political correctness and do your homework. Of course it matters what causes the reaction - its a primary determinant of how you deal with the issue. Meeting aggression head on is the fast track to escalating it, to provoking the dog into preemptive defence strikes AND to seeing owners get hurt. Many behaviorists regard resource guarding as a perfectly natural canine response - just not a desirable one. Like many natural canine behaviours, we manage what we cannot remove. This is instinct at work. We got the supposedly bigger brain for a reason. Your approach sees people bitten - and there's the lesson we never want a dog to learn - biting stops unwanted human behaviour. I prefer not to confront and to leave the serious issues to the professionals to resolve. I suggest you do the same. Your advice is potentially dangerous whether you realise it or not. You gave it to inexperienced dog owners - something you acknowledge is unsafe. It's by no means cut and dry across the board as a proven fact in all cases that meeting aggression head on is a fast track to escalating it, in fact that theory is absolute nonesense in reality, but political correctness is the primary reason many run with such a theory in my observation. Can't see how my comment "punishing aggression is not a task to be taken on board by the inexperienced" could be misconstrude as providing potenially dangerous advice, in fact it's quite the opposite

Yes, that system will work resource guarding the bed I agree in the generalisation, but how will that system teach the dog that snapping and biting is not an acceptable behaviour when he gets a shitty on about the next thing that doesn't please him and reverts back to snapping to get his own way in a new situation???. In that model Corvus, you may need to address and condition 20 different scenarios where the dog is know to become aggressive, or you can address the aggression problem it's self which is the primary issue with the dog that really needs behaviour modification. The dog gets into the "I don't like" mode which may be getting off the bed, someone getting near it's food bowl, getting in the car, going out the back door, etc etc and deals with these "I don't like" situations with aggression and learns that an aggressive reaction works for the dog. The dog needs to learn that an aggressive reaction doesn't work and results in an unpleasant consequence is the angle I am relating to. A dog does NOT challenge the pack leader with aggression when it doesn't want to do something, it's job is to serve the pack leader and do as it's told. When a dog does challenge the pack leader which happens, it's swiftly reminded of the consequences of doing so which essentially amounts to the laws of the jungle.

Rubbish. Even the lowest rank dogs will resource guard under the right circumstances. Dominance is not the be all and end all of reasons for dog behaviour. "Punishing" aggression can lead to nasty consequences - let the professionals deal with this. Lets not forget that this situation was in part created by people. The dogs' just doing what comes naturally. I have heard all that before Poodlefan, the standard political correct answer to everything aggression related and sorry I don't agree. I don't think it matters what caused the reaction, resource guarding to a reaction from trying to move the dog into another area whatever, the point is, the dog is learning to become aggressive towards the owners to get it's own way and the aggression is what needs to be dealt with before it escalates into a serious bite and the dog really hurts someone. Too many people IMHO tippy toe around a snappy dog to avoid a reaction which I think is wrong only managing the problem not fixing it or teaching the dog what behaviours are acceptable and what is not, and the consequences of behaving in a dangerous manner. Punishing aggression is not a task to be taken on board by the inexperienced and I totally agree on that point and done incorrectly can have nasty consequences which is very true, but done properly 99.9% of the time will fix the problem when the dog learns that an aggressive response has a consequence far worse than obeying what was asked of the dog to do intitially, as in the OP's example, getting off the bed.

Dogs don't challenge the pack leader with aggression, so although he works for reward and distraction exercises and appears to respect you, he doesn't. The dog needs some punishment to learn the boundaries IMHO. A vibrating collars sounds good turned up a bit a higher for a good zap.

I have 2 GSD's I train on an amateur basis, one is from highly driven working line ancestory who can redirect prey energy in the wrong areas in a high state of arousal and bit me on the leg once through my own errors of not providing clarity in the game and the bite he gave me wasn't the dog's fault as at that stage in training he knew no better. He was agitated in prey drive to bite the decoy's sleeve up on his back legs and I moved my knee in quickly to assume better balance, he saw my leg appear and took the bite. He outed immediately on command although gritting my teeth in pain, ended the exercise where I praised him for the out. My dog is not handler aggressive in the slightest and he didn't bite me through aggression, but had I taken an approach to attack or dominate him with an alpha roll because he bit me through my own stupidity, he wouldn't have understood what he had done wrong only that I attacked him out of the blue which I don't consider is a good thing for the dog to experience from the person he should trust the most. The dog in the video looked panicked, didn't know what behavior to offer or have any direction from the handler what it was supposed to be doing. If the dog had of bitten the handlers face in the alpha roll, serves him right, completely dumb training approach for my 2 cents worth.