55chevy

Exactly I agree, it can work both ways when aggression is discussed properly and someone contemplating a self cure as people do, when allowed to be discuss openly, we may just prevent someone escalating aggression too

Why do you want to pick on e-collars? If you used an e-collar the way I do, it might not achieve what I think you might want in this instance. Too soft. . I think you'd cause more punishment if you used a Head Collar. Exactly!!!, it's no different than for example walking back to a dog who's lost focus and sniffing the ground and touching it on the shoulder to regain attention. You could always be a "humane" trainer and yank the dog away with a halti E collar training is not about blasting the dog with a heart stopping electric shock in fact none of the E collars on the market today have anywhere near the power to achieve that.

No, it's not a slag off on positive training techniques, it's a slag off if you like upon trainers who use positive methods to the detriment of the dog for the pride of saying "I don't use aversion ever" as some do. Their training career is purely method based being their eternal lynchpin, the be all and end all of greatness supreme having never have corrected a dog, used a choker, prong or Ecollar. They are more interested in never having used a correction or a tool of aversion than how many dogs they have successfully trained. The one's they can't train if they are not already at the bridge, will be someone elses fault, or the dog was so screwed up in the head, PTS was the best option. If the idea is to train dogs and be good at training dogs, you do what it takes to train the dog and use what ever methods are available to get the job successfully done, that IMHO is what good trainer is all about

I agree that aggression is a behaviour that should be met with caution, but I am talking more on SkyeGSD's comment that these issues should be discussed. Everyone shutting down with behaviourist recommendations and spraying people with contempt if they dare mention a behavioural remedy IMHO is over the top. People happily discuss a way to improve a long stay but if someone has an aggression issue it's basically go away and we can all retreat to the safety net of denial. If a dog breaks a long stay is not that big a deal, but if a dog is showing signs of aggression which is a big deal simply most don't want to know about it. With the amount of experienced people here, there is no reason at all why aggression discussions can't be entered into or even short term remedies suggested. To say in a blanket statement across the board that aggression issues cannot be diagnosed on the internet without seeing the dog, individuals can speak for themselves on that one, Ed Frawley from Leerburg in the US doesn't have any problem writing books and doing video's on aggression resolution like many others who have never seen someone's dog. Half the behaviourists wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway and all give a different answer and remedy and such a protocol is clearly bulldust. Breed specific aggression especially, can be diagnosed on the internet easily as 99.9% of genetic traits in particular breeds are the same and is not hard to determine having breed experience although many may not understand doesn't make their lack of understanding the reason to adopt a particular protocol.

I have searched for many years for the wording to explain a feeling I have about conditioning alternative responses and Nekhbet you are a champion, what you have said (bolded) is immaculate YES!!!, I agree totally that positive reinforcement is the best way to teach a dog TRICKS, absolutely, and this what is happening. Instead of dealing with the actual problem and teaching the dog not do do something forthwith, they teach as an alternative, 14 tricks to lure the dogs mind off the real issue. Eventually after the dog learns the 14 tricks two years later, they claim to have reshaped the behaviour successfully without ever having to correct the dog or apply an aversive, BUT!!!, when the 15th trick is missing where the dog has learned no boundaries or knowledge of consequence in the crunch and the dog fails one cue is when unreliability takes place.

The curt "seek the help of a behaviourist" is usually given when dog aggression is the problem. It can be very dangerous to try to solve an aggression problem by taking advice from people on a public forum. That's just a cop out half the time as aggression is not always a poor or unpredictable behaviour or a problem with the dog's temperament or character at all. Aggression is often only a behaviour deemed a serious issue on the basis of socitey protocol. People often buy a GSD or working breed for their protective instinct and good examples of these breeds should have the genetics for territorial aggression in the back yard and most like to think if someone came over the back fence the dog will defend it's property and a good dog will. Take the same dog out in the street, he/she doesn't know where the fence line ends, sees the bloke across the road and fires up on the end of the leash, then automatically the dog has an aggression issue and needs a behaviourist which is nonesense. The dog needs to learn when to aggress and when not to which can be easily achieved by competent training. With breed experience and providing the owner can describe particular behaviours and reactions, you can easily provide a training guide or something to try and from a danger perspective, you can always use a muzzle in the process to keep everything safe. This standard answer to get a behaviourist does more harm than good half the time. There would be more experienced people here if dog owners did regularly discuss their problems openly who would have better practical solutions than half the behaviourists all put together IMHO. I have seen so many behaviourists assess the same dog and all have a different answer and approach anyway How in earth is that a cop out. Someone coming to a public forum to ask for help on aggression does not have the skill to deal with it themselves and nor do the majority of people on a forum. An experienced Behaviourist should be sought to help them. Whether or not aggression in canines is 'normal' is irrelevant because we have dogs live in domestication and aggression within the family is not accepted. However, you're more than welcome to say "Canine Aggression is normal" when a dog bites a child or nearly kills a dog it lives with. You can also be the liable one when your huge amount of breed experience stops someone from contacting a professional and the dog goes on to do more damage. The point is Sas, there is no formal behaviourist profession, so what are we are really telling people to do, is seek a person who's titled themselves as a behaviourist and the problem is solved. If they happen to take that advice and get an idiot as a behaviourist and the dog does bite someone, that makes it ok then???

That's very interesting because that's exactly what I would NOT be expecting. Not because I don't like him (although I don't), but because he is almost the antithesis of a behaviourist in that he does not follow behaviourist principles, which are deeply rooted in the scientific method and only deal with the observable (expressly putting aside things like submission, for e.g) "Behaviourist" says to me that you are from the behaviourist school of thought, e.g Skinner, Pavlov, Watson, Rescorla. You certainly do get that from a veterinary behaviourist, along with the veterinary medical perspective. I don't know where I would put CM, he is very slightly in the ethologist camp. How is Cesar Milan the antithesis of a behaviourist when the profession as a behaviourist has no formal protocol???. A behaviourist could follow Skinner, Pavlov or William Koehler, but providing they have the ability to modify a dog's behaviour, who they follow has no relevence in claiming of the title "behaviourist". I would much prefer Cesar Milan walking up my driveway with an aggression issue I couldn't handle than a behaviourist with a head full of theories who has never handled an aggressive dog before

The curt "seek the help of a behaviourist" is usually given when dog aggression is the problem. It can be very dangerous to try to solve an aggression problem by taking advice from people on a public forum. That's just a cop out half the time as aggression is not always a poor or unpredictable behaviour or a problem with the dog's temperament or character at all. Aggression is often only a behaviour deemed a serious issue on the basis of socitey protocol. People often buy a GSD or working breed for their protective instinct and good examples of these breeds should have the genetics for territorial aggression in the back yard and most like to think if someone came over the back fence the dog will defend it's property and a good dog will. Take the same dog out in the street, he/she doesn't know where the fence line ends, sees the bloke across the road and fires up on the end of the leash, then automatically the dog has an aggression issue and needs a behaviourist which is nonesense. The dog needs to learn when to aggress and when not to which can be easily achieved by competent training. With breed experience and providing the owner can describe particular behaviours and reactions, you can easily provide a training guide or something to try and from a danger perspective, you can always use a muzzle in the process to keep everything safe. This standard answer to get a behaviourist does more harm than good half the time. There would be more experienced people here if dog owners did regularly discuss their problems openly who would have better practical solutions than half the behaviourists all put together IMHO. I have seen so many behaviourists assess the same dog and all have a different answer and approach anyway

I totally agree SkyeGSD and really, a the term "behaviourst" from a qualification perspective that they are bound to follow a specific protocol is non existant and means little in practice.

Post incident behaviour would more than likely be completely different now the Foxy has been injured and the Akita's had a heavy correction and alpha roll to what it was pre incident. A behaviourist could only assess the aftermath and the present body language if the dogs are reunited which is unlikely to shed light on the cause of the fight or how it started IMHO

If there is a push within the industry its about time ! They need to be regulated as the behaviourist industry has become a big "money to be made" industry and imo most behaviourists out there are the ones to blame for people believing dogs are complicated beings..when in fact they're not complicated at all. I have to agree, there is a lot of money in exchange for plenty of mumbo jumbo with poor results

Siks3, I'm sorry about your fathers little Foxie and you are right about two male dogs..especially if they have not grown together...........but as soon as I saw Akita.....it didn't surprize me. Now before everyone pounces on me.......I have known dozens of Akita's in the past through friends having them as well as being at Akita shows when the breed was very popular.......and I have not met ONE I would trust. They are a big powerful breed with very few having good temperament with other dogs and sometimes with people. I think it is very sad you have to give the Foxie away....especially as he is an old dog and has had the trauma of loosing his owner (your father).......and now he is about to lose you too in being re housed with someone else. Sad situation all round. I disagree with your male dog perspective Tapferhund, the males growing up together from pups are more likely to fight in my experience than an older/younger combination. Akitas are not a whole lot different to working line GSD's, Rottys, Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and some Bull breeds that have genetic fighting drive, more than likely you are comparing more classical Akita's with watered down pet versions of the breeds I mentioned. Any breed with genetic fighting drive if pushed too hard with bullying or being shoved around unfairly will defend themselves and make a good job of it, lets not put Akita's in the traditional Pit Bull charade with more unsubstantiated comments of negativity based on breed.

Dogs do not think the way we do, much of their world is lived in the moment they don't weigh things up and have no real concept of the danger they are in when they take on a bigger dog, they aren't able to connect the thought big dog = I wont win this fight, the way we would. So sorry for the OP, when my big dog was young I allowed my little dog to bully him which was unfair and just plain wrong but I thought it would teach the big dog to respect the authority of the little one, it didn't it just resulted in a nasty fight when the big dog reached maturity and now they have to be seperated when I am not right there to watch their interactions. They don't weigh things up as human would that's correct. When I handled service dogs a few years ago now, I had a few encounters with small aggressive dog rushing at my GSD, my dog was getting angry, the little dog's off leash and keeps coming and is a quite scary situation to control, not a good look for a patrol dog killing someone's little rascal

Double post, sorry

Reminds me of a resource guarder once a Rotty pup, the owners had a large toy box in the corner of the room and if anyone touched her toys, she would rush at them and bite. When she got old enough for her aggression to escalate and her bites really hurt, I was asked to have a look at their dog. First thing, remove the toy box, put the toys way and give her one to play with then put it away, make it that the owners allow the dog to play with their toys. The following week, I walk into the house and there is the toy box back in the corner full of toys WTF???. Owner says, "she hasn't really improved at all so I couldn't leave her without her toys" The hardest job is teaching people how to train a dog and trusting that they carry out instructions properly

Do you know for certain it improved? Was it measured? I'm not doubting you, as I think confidence can have a huge effect on behaviour, but do you see what I'm getting at? You are telling me your interpretation of a situation you saw. I don't know what you expected to see, but chances are you saw what you expected to see. I guess it's a confirmation bias. Unless there is something that is objectively measurable, we can't really be sure that something helped, even if someone we know is smart and sensible about dogs says it helped. I guess that there are always people that are only interested in the quick fix. We used to run into this all the time in environmental consulting. Companies would go with a cheap and dirty proposal even though they would be warned that they wouldn't get away with it and it would end up costing them more when they were instructed to do it again, or when the company they had hired added about a dozen variations they knew they would need from the start to avoid being told to do it again. Luckily, not everyone was like that or there would be no good environmental consulting businesses. Wait... what am I saying? There's a reason why I got out of that industry! Suffice to say there would be no better consulting businesses... The better ones often get work when someone uses one of the shoddy ones and gets told they'll have to redo it with a little extra. Maybe the same goes for behaviourists? Yes, after seeing the behaviourist it reduced the distance between other dogs before it would fire up. I think the owner before seeing the behaviourist was tensing up when seeing another dog approach antcipating her dogs aggressive behaviour. I think perhaps she remained calm until the approaching dog was much closer after seeing the behaviourist is all I could put it down to. Nothing was done to retrain the dog I know that much. I think by memory the behaviourist was about leadership and walking straight and breathing exercises as in conditioning the owner to a degree. I agree with the quick fix cheap option model. There is a lovely leather leash hanging in a petshop I vist which has been there for about 3 months, why doesn't anyone buy it, it would last for 20 years

Yes of course, we would all agree on that, but the OP's dog isn't continually vomiting bile and is otherwise eating, healthy and vibrant which isn't the symptoms of pancreatitis as we know of it

That's fine, no probs , but as long as people understand that showing and describing the behaviour you have to contend with from a GSD on an open forum is NOT the behaviour that a genetically sound GSD exhibits or what a prospective GSD buyer should expect when essentially choosing a breed of iconic unflappable confidence and strength. As a GSD owner, lover and enthusiast myself, I hope you can understand my feelings that what you have posted doesn't portray the breed in the light inwhich they are supposed to be Yep. I understand where you're coming from. Please understand that this thread is just about the Thunder Shirt & what it can do for a dog ... of any breed. Please view the posts & attached videos in that light, rather than Spirit's behaviour showing the GSD in a less than flattering position behaviourally. Please also note that Tara ... my B&T GSD is also in some footage. Tara is a very well behaved dog & is great PR for the breed every time I take her out in public. Should you wish to discuss the temperament of the GSD, this is not the appropriate thread to post comments & opinions. I trust this will be the end of this type of discussion & we can now return to the intent of the thread & that is to discuss the merits of the Thunder Shirt. Yes, I respect your view , but regardless of the thread from my perspective, I think it's in the breeds best interests to keep faulty temperaments causing behavioural issues down to a bare minimum in public view, but anyway, we have had our say, back to the Thunder Shirt.

An attack of pancreatitis, the dog is crook and droopy and in a lot of pain, dry heaving diarreha, won't eat really sick, not a simple bile perk and then gets on with it's day as normal. We had a Labrador years ago that would get an attack from the fat in bone marrow, ended up on a morphine shot and a drip for two days. Pancreatitis attacks are severe illness from my experience, you will know the dog needs vet attention. Sorry to disagree 55 chevy. My GSD had one episode of vomitting bile, I took him to the vet immediately as it had never happened before, and he had pancreatitis - he died in the vets the next day, even though every effort was made to save him. I am sorry to hear about your GSD very sad, but as I said the condition worsens through the day which would have happened with your GSD considering he died the day after I would imagine. They don't just vomit once, eat and behave in normal vigour and drop dead suddenly from that condition I am aware of, they progressively worsen and become extremely ill and droopy.

I have actually seen that with a dog aggression case once where the behaviourist gave the owner more confidence, she wasn't as anxious with the dog and the dog aggression improved somewhat as the dog felt less handler anxiety in certain situations. It didn't fix the problem as nothing was really addressed with the dog, but it made a difference to the owner, interesting concept that one

That's fine, no probs , but as long as people understand that showing and describing the behaviour you have to contend with from a GSD on an open forum is NOT the behaviour that a genetically sound GSD exhibits or what a prospective GSD buyer should expect when essentially choosing a breed of iconic unflappable confidence and strength. As a GSD owner, lover and enthusiast myself, I hope you can understand my feelings that what you have posted doesn't portray the breed in the light inwhich they are supposed to be

Nice post, well explained Small dogs often think they can take on big dog and suffer the injury consequences making the fight more ugly. I think it's fair to say that if a small dog taking the fight to a large dog if it could envisage the consequence would think a bit more carefully before picking a fight

My god, that's not good GSD behaviour, is the breeder aware of this may I ask???.

He has no problem eating. His appetite is as big as an elephant! I gave him 1/4 handful more of kibbles today soaked in water on top of what he usually gets and he gobbled it up. His energy level is high also, he has been wrestling with his little brother all morning. is lack of interest in food a symptom of pancreatitis? It's not pancreatitis giraffez, the dog is crook in a big way and gets worse as the day progresses dry heaving every 10 minutes when there is nothing left and hiding in pain, they won't eat, in fact it's quite scary seeing the dog so ill.

An attack of pancreatitis, the dog is crook and droopy and in a lot of pain, dry heaving diarreha, won't eat really sick, not a simple bile perk and then gets on with it's day as normal. We had a Labrador years ago that would get an attack from the fat in bone marrow, ended up on a morphine shot and a drip for two days. Pancreatitis attacks are severe illness from my experience, you will know the dog needs vet attention.