K9Nev

The GSD is not for everyone, size plays a factor amoungst exercise requirements etc, but what reason to you feel the temperament is unsuitable???

Yes it does. From the standard :D The German Shepherd Dog must be of well balanced temperament, steady of nerves, self assured, totally at ease (except when provoked) and good natured as well as attentive and easy to train. He must possess instinctive drive, resilience and self confidence in order to be suitable as a companion, watch dog, protection, service and herding dog. To be able to do many of these jobs a dog needs a higher level of "go" beyond that which you need or would desire for a companion animal. No that's incorrrect Kavik. The GSD is not intended to be a solo tasking dog. A "good" GSD can do it all, versatitly is the breeds forte I didn't say solo tasking dog. When I think of companion breed, I think of something like a Cocker Spaniel etc, something that most families can probably cope with. If you work in a field where you see a lot of pet dogs and their owners, and the level of training they want to do and what they want the dog to be able to do (go to park, play with other dogs, be friendly with all with not too much work on their part) and if you have any experience with dogs working in any field that GSD are supposed to do (herding, SchH, security, police, scent detection) you will know that a dog that is capable of work is too much for the average pet owner. They make fantastic companions for those that are aware of their needs, capabilities, drive and temperament and are willing to put the time in. But they are not or should not be a Golden Retriever Like ALL working breeds Same with my other breed, working Kelpies. I would say they are not a pet breed, for the average owner. But they make fantastic working/sporting/companion dogs if you understand their temperament and their needs and are willing to put the time in. The GSD is a working dog Kavik, all of them if bred correctly, one breed, one dog and a companion animal is it's first and foremost role. Why is a dog defined as a companion animal too much for the average pet owner???.

Excellent video stud dog Interesting how the decoy could pat the black GSD as it sat there calm and relaxed. I would like to see that happen with some of the dogs bred for their sharp/civil traits........good luck

Yes it does. From the standard The German Shepherd Dog must be of well balanced temperament, steady of nerves, self assured, totally at ease (except when provoked) and good natured as well as attentive and easy to train. He must possess instinctive drive, resilience and self confidence in order to be suitable as a companion, watch dog, protection, service and herding dog. To be able to do many of these jobs a dog needs a higher level of "go" beyond that which you need or would desire for a companion animal. No that's incorrrect Kavik. The GSD is not intended to be a solo tasking dog. A "good" GSD can do it all, versatitly is the breeds forte

I am amazed as to how this thread has gotten to be 9 pages long over something so simple as the word aggression. Seeing as aggression isn't part of German Shepherd dogs nature I wonder what the role of a decoy is? I always thought the role of a decoy was to stimulate different forms of aggression in a dog. Depending on the end goal the decoy will dictate to the dog what form of aggression to display and for how long before being rewarded. I guess seeing as "aggression is not in a German shepherds nature" decoys have been winging it so far with training? I am not talking about extreme forms of aggression and neither was the breeder in there advertisement. I find it stupid that some posters on here are continuing to argue when they clearly do not understand forms of canine aggression and how it can be displayed. Should we be promoting dogs in this fashion considering all the new laws they are trying to bring in, I am disappointed to read this as aggression is not a natural part of the GSD nature and shouldn't be promoted in this way Jeff, the above is the question that the OP asked which is fair enough. I can guarantee that the BSL bloke would like the add as much as the people supporting it the next time a GSD bites someone which is the context of the thread in relation to the laws governing supposed dangerous dogs. Why on earth on a public forum are we promoting GSD aggression and arguing with people who claim aggression is a myth???. We have the breed standards on our side here that stipulates that a properly bred GSD is not aggressive..........so, isn't best to run with that??? The exact predicted traits of a working litter can easily be explained more in detail on enquiry I think. Plenty of time when the pups are not on the ground yet

A level of "go" beyond the use as a companion animal doesn't comply with the breed standards either No better than the all "show" one's except at the other end of the spectrum when looking at the breed in an overall perspective. But the point is, it's a complete misconception IMHO, that only aggressive difficult to handle dogs are better workers than the well balanced dog. Many of these over sharp, civil dogs can't pass a Schutzhund test, can't pass an inspection, can't be walked in public without constant correction. They do bite well with courage and fighting drive, but so does a well balanced working dog, the dog which I call "extreme" in aggression doesn't do the job better, it's just more difficult to handle and control. A good dog needs some sharpness and civil drive along with some rank drive to provide some trainablility and handler focus and prey drive. A dog of that balance and again this just my perception, is far better dog overall than a dog driven entirely by sharpness, civil and defence. The only advantage I see in a truely sharp civil dog, is faster light ups and takes less training to generate the fight in the dog...........other than that, they are a pain in the butt to handle & trust.

No, and as I have said earlier, I don't know of too many breeders who think that is the case either. Certainly the ad in question does not suggest that these dogs are extreme in aggression, quite the opposite, just that they are not suitable for pet homes. Whilst aggression might have a part to play in this (if not competently handled), the bigger issue is that working line dogs necessarily have more drive than most pet homes can provide outlets for. The litter in question is a line-breeding on one of those classic working dogs you mentioned, and very closely related to your own pup. Passing a BH is no guarantee that anything that dog produces will fit in well in a pet home. Some have mentioned the breeder and litter in this debate, but personally, I don't know them or be inclined to critisize their dogs or practices as such, from my perspective I am looking at a general overview of advertising extreme aggression being the supposed ultimate of a working GSD breeding. As a man stopping yard dog I agree that extreme aggression and sharpness would make a fantastic yard worker, but IMHO, that's about where it ends. I don't believe that the GSD is the best breed for that purpose either, but that's another story. Offshoots in the ideal GSD temperament are plentiful from soft weakness to over aggression and everything in between with too many excuses and reasons why "balance" is missed. This breeding is only for pet homes and the other is only for working/security homes are not "balanced" GSD's as they should be, but extremes at each end. A "good" GSD regardless if the breed may be unsuitable for some people, should be able to do it all, and a companion animal is one of those roles. It doesn't and shouldn't mean that a dog capable of security/protection work can't be a pet. If can't be a loyal and trustworthy pet at least with it's primary handler, there is something far wrong with that breeding IMHO

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression? It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression". I bit of caution to be exercised with "security dogs" as they have no official benchmark. Some security officers are often using pet GSD's & Rottie's and take them for a stroll around on patrol???. There is no "official" security dog qualification as such in the private sector. Unless the dog is an official police or military type of service/security dog that has undergone and passed a designated training system and proven it's worth cannot necessarily be regarded as a proper security dog.

I couldn't comment on Integraguard as I don't know them, from what I can tell they train in the KNPV style. I was commenting on the use of "aggression" in the ad, which you seem to agree is OK (based on the above critique). You might be interested to know that they have based their breeding on Yultzen and Von Forell dogs, similar to your latest pup (and very similar to my bitch), and that Fax also features in these lines. In fact, the litter in question is line-bred 4-4 on Fax! I am referring to the "aggression" concept in promotion of the working GSD as the dog's major essential trait. In other words, do we need to be breeding genetically extreme aggression to do the job???. Ok, extreme aggression........the dog lights up fast, bite's with a full hard grip and is sharp as a tack.........ok great, the dog will be a fine worker. On the flip side, the dog wants to bite everyone, threat or not, comes back up the leash at the handler on a regular basis, and in reactive aggression (defence/fight drive) the dog is foggy headed and the handler has little control. What real use is a dog like that seriously I ask???. The dog couldn't pass a Schutzhund BH as it's shapness and aggression cannot be tamed enough to get through a traffic test without a reaction...........a GSD that fails a BH in reference to a GSD breed quality test is not a good GSD, working dog or not. The classical working dog's I mentioned previously passed those tests.........are we saying those dog's were not aggressive enough or able to work effectively and needed to be more "extreme"???.

:D So you want people to read critiques/descriptions (someones opinion) on Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory but then you dismiss critiques/descriptions on the dogs listed in the advertisement...interesting. Personally, I believe the critique from registered judges with multi titled dogs has a bit more substance than the critque of a group of guys doing bitework on essentially untrained dogs if your are looking for a good balanced animal. I am not saying that a good dog cannot be determined without official titles and critiques because they can of course, but anyone can portray their dog as a "ripper mate" without formal classification when they are self promoted. It boils down then to taking someone's word for a dog's quality or not.............have one of those "ripper" dogs in my backyard Jeff :D

What are you talking about? Dogs that lack confidence and "light up fast" are not dogs that would refuse to out... These dogs have extremely poor bites, they mouth and bounce off from what they are biting, they "out" very easily. Correct Jeff, they do have poor bites, generally tearing and re engagement and do a lot of damage in the process whilst the handlers try to control them. I doubt you would even select a dog like that to be training in bitework in the first place.........but some do unfortunately :D

Are they???, can't see any working titles on them or professional critiques to confirm that other than someone's opinion???. Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits. :D

No Police dogs are NOT asessed on their agression its the drive ! In fact overly agressive dogs dont make good Police Dogs CORRECT 100% Wazzat :D The nerve is to handle the pressure of the fight, the chase and attack is the result of prey drive :D

I know individuals who prefer this sort of dog. I don't think the majority of breeders of working lines think this is the standard to which they should strive though. Perhaps it depends on the handler & what they want the dog for? For a SAR or sport or a PP dog, being social & a good family dog is an important virtue. But if I were training a MWD or similar then perhaps I would put up with having a dog that was suspicious & dominant & came up the leash at me if it was also exceptionally ballsy when it counted? I don't really know - heck, I just do scent work with mine, not even bitesports - but I figure, different folks probably have different priorities. I don't think it is one-size-fits-all with working dogs. I don't know anyone who would want a nerve bag, though. This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog.

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though. Breeding "extreme" dogs in aggression, advertising them as such, and selling to anyone does have the potential to send a breed down the Pitbull path from a public perception. It's not difficult to guess the ramifications when a couple of black GSD's bred in this manner maul a child or worse in an uprovoked attack which is not a possibility that is out of the question and could easily happen. But the point is IMHO, we need good working GSD's and "good" is the operative word which I think some need to read the breed standards and understand what a "good" GSD is supposed to be. If they can't find working lines that can do the work without explosive uncontrolled aggression, they really need to re-work their bloodlines and get some more experience I think.

How are they supposed to be protective if they have no aggression I wonder ? German Shepherds are not Golden Retrievers, but it does not mean with the right handling they cannot also be loyal, loving and intelligent dogs with their families. Protective is a much better word than aggressive don't you think ? I don't think a lack of understanding of inherited breed characteristics is the problem here, as I own two GSD's. The problem is how the general public see the breed and how the breed is presented. I'm not talking about this add, I'm talking about the breed as a whole. No one wants their breed labeled dangerous, aggressive or vicious as happened to the Pitbull. If a young family wanted a GSD and saw an add saying loyal, loving and protective family pet (which they are) they would make inquiries to the GSD club in their state but not if the add said otherwise. I was sitting at the vets today with my Rottie who is gentle as a lamb, no one sat next to us and anyone who came in walked right around us because people are scared of what they read which is such a shame. IMHO, I think adds like that are appealing to a particular audience who believe that type of dog makes the ultimate security/protection dog. I personally prefer a calm, confident GSD of hard nerve strength with a clear head that can be trained in security/protection work with enough fighting drive to take a bite on command with the courage and defense drive to win the challenge. That's what I expect from a working GSD which I think is more consistant with the breed standards definition. Being a "working line" is too often the excuse for a nervy dog that flies off the handle in aggression easily seeing everything in it's path as a threat which IMO is incorrect???

Not entirely . I don't have a problem with the add as I understand the context of the aggression reference. But having said that, I think advertising in that fashion is a bit "cowboy" and can understand why some think it's detrimental to the breed attracting the wrong type of GSD owners perhaps. It's no secret that some security dog folk love a dog that lights up fast, sharp and civil dogs that are essentially leashed and muzzled???. You could achieve the same deterent factor with a fear aggressive dog with a bit of defense drive, but the question I have, are these extreme sharp and civil dogs a proper balanced example of a good working dog or just someone's definition of a tough dog???.

Geez, I hate that with a burning passion The one's who let their dogs off leash where they shouldn't, NEVER have any recall either, totally uncontrollable for the most part. I remember a lady a few years ago that got into some serious trouble walking 2 Rotties when an offleash SWF bit one of her Rotties on the leg. All hell cut loose and the lady fell over loosing grip on one of her dogs who bit the SWF with an injury that required to be PTS. The problem was, the Rotty was unrestrained after she fell over when the leash slipped from her hand as she tried to get up and she was held liable for the incident. It was dropped in the end when a witness came forward to give evidence of what happened. Had the SWF been on leash as should have been, it would still be alive and the incident would have been avoided.

A lot have been trained in defence only, especially security dogs which becomes the reference often when describing the parents of a litter. Training produced sharpness and civil drive is not necessarily the product raised and trained another way. Generally working litters from experienced breeders will suit any application from a pet to protection dog and the higher prey driven puppies are selected for sport, but they are essentially the same dogs. Obviously having a working line dog as pet has it's challenges over a quieter dog, but often a working puppy in a pet home that wasn't accomodated for in training etc have behavioural issues surface down the track.

Depends how extremely you want to vary from the GSD breed standard I guess

I will have a read on that site, thanks Staranais Civil drive, social drive, sharpness, all have varying interpretations with different people especially amoungst the highly experienced which makes it difficult to understand I have seen some sharp dogs tested which are dogs that treat everything with suspicion and light up easily with stranger aggression, dog aggression etc. Dogs that can't be walked in public without them firing up aggressively towards anyone that comes within 20 meters of the dog and handler which some consider were top level civil drives for security and protection work. All of those dogs like that I saw tested were weak as water when pressured and were actually fear aggressive and unstable in nerve. They looked the part and one especially I remember in muzzle work peed itself and layed down, it was petrified under pressure, but was the toughest looking dog at the test session Some of the better dogs that had real aggression under pressure were fairly layed back in a relaxed state and just looked like the average pet standing around with their handler, some of those were police dogs in training but with a calm and confident disposition.

Trouble is though, the "sharp and civil" interpretation is often incorrectly defined. The best of the high end working GSD's worldwide all have Schutzhund titles, which means they have to pass the BH. Sharp dogs fail and don't make it to first base, which ideally are not good dogs at all. Sharp and civil I don't think is a good cocktail for anything other than a yard dog IMHO

Hmmm, I don't know. I can see your point, and agree that breeders shouldn't advertise their dogs as out-of-control landsharks, but I also don't think euphemisms really do the breed any good either. Even saying "not for the faint hearted" doesn't really give the same picture as saying "these dogs are not good pets, you will need to keep 100% control at all times if you don't want them to bite people" (not sure if these dogs are in this class - and not all working lines are like that by any means - but some working dog lines are not at all social).But hey, each to their own. Unless the dog has been trained to be suspicious, I wouldn't call an unsociable dog by nature a balanced breeding. I would think a breeding like that was overly sharp and border on nerve instability???. A properly bred GSD, regardless of lines, should be able to fulfill the role of a companion animal

I have a working line GSD from Yultzen/Vonforrel lines which goes back to Fax vom Grenzganger and Kuran van Teikerhook which are similar lines to the add in question. I agree that perhaps the wording of the add could have been better formatted, but "aggression" refers to the defence drives of the dog in fighting situation, it doesn't mean a killer on the end of the leash wanting attack everyone. There are dogs like that which are generally fear aggressive with an unbalanced temperament that light up fast in defence, but that is NOT what a balanced working dog temperament is about, although some use these types in security being easy to train for constant nastiness, but dogs of this nature would never pass a Schutzhund test or be reliable in police work etc. Spooky reactive GSD's I have seen more in unstable showlines destined for the pet market, more so than in working lines. Controlling prey drive is the most difficult trait to handle in my dog as he will chase moving objects to try and capture by nature which would probably lead to aggression with the caught object in a fight, but my dog doesn't display aggression whatsoever in normal circumstances, he's friendly, not the slightest bit dog aggressive, high pain threshold, doesn't spook, just takes the environment in his stride, infact he's the most stable reliable pet I have owned, great with kids and doesn't perceive non threatening situations as necessity to react like some can do with limited nerve strength. The difference IMHO when speaking of "good aggression" in a working dog is that they will take on the fight with defence drive trained in that fashion when challenged. Most dogs retreat when challenged to fight, run away if the going gets too tough or their life feels threatened. The good working dog doesn't retreat, the higher the challenge, the harder they will fight is probably the simplest explanation. Without civil aggression in the dog's traits for working purposes, as an example, if someone came over your back fence with a baseball bat and started swinging at the dog. Without a civil aggression trait and the dog was hit with the bat, it would dance around barking and probably run away fearing for it's life. The civil dog hit with the bat, will fire it in defence drive to fight the the guy with bat and win the challenge. The dog has the nerve, confidence and aggression to take the challenge on. There are plenty of probably better ways to describe what "aggression" in working dog's mean, but I hope this makes it a bit clearer as to what it means I am sure that some more experienced working folk than I am could add to this.

for nerve stability!!!