sidoney

I definitely agree with you Lablover. Also nervous riders make nervous horses worse and so on. I believe it's not just the lead but the breathing, the body posture and movement, the voice, the smell, and so on.

You are horrible Myszka, gave me a heart stopping moment too! :rolleyes:

I've not read the whole thread, but some pages of it, just wanted to say that my epileptic Cattle Dog girl lived until she was 16.

I have an ozito that I got recently and followed the instructions on that link also including the gradually getting them used to it instructions. Much better than clippers and dogs happier.

And *I* think it's good that we *have* herding threads with people who are genuinely interested (even if they don't always agree) ... when I first joined this forum they were pretty sparse if existing at all. At this moment, 8/15 threads on the front page have herding in the subject line! Wow!

Re dogs, sheep and livestock welfare. If the discussion starts at the livestock and not at the dogs, and the livestock welfare is paramount, then does it make a tremendous difference as to breed or working style? As has been pointed out, dogs of varying breeds will stress sheep (or not), and whether or not sheep and other livestock are handled properly rests largely on the handler taking a responsible attitude, and having suitable guidance. And being willing to discontinue with unsuitable dogs (and handlers, and trainers - I *have* seen unsuitable trainer/s). And must remember also the dog welfare. One would also discontinue with a dog that didn't want to do it. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if there is unacceptable stress in livestock or dog (note: what would one define as unacceptable? bound to have some stress), then something is happening that needs to be modified, whether the conditions, the training approach, the handler, the dog, the sheep (eg. unsuitable for dog, maybe either too heavy or light for dog's training stage) or something. And that stress levels might be a suitable indicator.

(but not surprising really)Are the Perth people doing some networking with their dog friends and training acquaintances to get more interest? 15 per day is an achievable number.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I have been and will be again going to see K9 and figured that he would be able to read this thread and OK or not.

I would also be interested in this. I attended the last DOL K9 working seminar and will be attending the next one but would appreciate this information in the interim, if possible.

Yes, that would be good. I'm always interested in course maps. Not always easy to tell what the course is from the side perspective. The path between um, 11 & 12 I think, looked very awkward.

You make it look easy ... and I know it's not. Top stuff.

That is utterly BRILLIANT!!!!!!!

Best wishes from me ... so hard when our darlings have something wrong with them. Hang in there.

I saw a cow with an inverted uterus once ... your description reminded me of that. But of course I am not on the spot and the vet is. Best wishes that all goes well with her and she has a speedy recovery.

What are Corriedale like?

I would worry about geese particularly with a young dog as they are so prone to violence. At least my mother's are.

Vickie was saying that hair sheep tend to be lighter (move off the dog more readily) than fleece sheep too ... Vickie?

If your openness to ideas and willingness to take and try things that suit you without pre-judging is challenging the mind-set of others then that is their problem, which they are then trying to put onto you. It is hard. I also have had some experience of this, of trying to excel and help others to also, by staying open and willing to try new things, by not wanting to accept second best, and ended up with people that I thought were friends making rather horrible accusations about me. It was hard. Very hard. You know what you are doing is right and that the self imposed limitations that others have don't have to hold you back in your search for your ideal. It can be very hard to be different and also hard to try for excellence when others are satisfied with less. They make themselves feel better by trying to bring you down. Keep your eyes on your goal. It will be hard at times but the rewards are worth it. You know in your heart that what you are doing is right.

Stimulating thought, LOL, when I left your place after the workshop/seminar I came to, I was so deep in thought that I passed several "speed camera" signs without seeing them and got pinged!

I wish I had this much self control. "You can go on DOL AFTER [insert undesired activity here]"

Would it be worthwhile to put a harness on the dog? And it pulls on the harness if it's been taught to not pull on a collar?

You must be putting more effort into getting it in securely ... I've seen more dogs dragging screw in stakes than any other kind.

Ah semantics again ... I would suggest that dogs can be "motivated" by positive consequences. I would call allowing any ongoing tension an improper use. Allowing the dog to pull but with less tension would set the handler up for eternal reliance on the device. I would suggest that this is not necessarily so, but it depends on the use. There are US agility trainers who use them, and their dogs have tremendous drive. Susan Garrett and others at her training school would be a specific example.

And the screw in ones are very insecure.

I still lean towards this being a semantic difference. The dog does things because of consequences or a belief in consequences. The halter is a fairly obvious signal that there is a particular kind of possible consequence. Other but not all tools are also obvious. As has been demonstrated, there is the possibility of becoming dependent on the obvious tools, as the dog knows the difference between presence and absence. Def. a disadvantage of this tool. (BTW I am not necessarily arguing that it's a great tool or the best tool, just wanted to provide another POV.) Or don't hold it by the end of the leash. Unfortunately, because of misconceptions, some of these are illegal in some places. What then? Two comments here. One is that lots of people DON'T train and DO simply get pulled along. They may as well put a flat collar on the dog. Of course I think we all know that. Second, some dogs will back off the halter. Yay for their handlers, makes it easier for them. (But probably these will be the ones that will never get off the thing.) Some don't, and do need the handler to have some input. Is there a benefit in fitting a halter over, say, a prong? Probably not ... but see above comment on availability of some of the other tools. Something that I disagree with is the marketing of halters stating they are "mild" and suggesting that little training is needed to use one. IMO they can be severe. Sure. That's not really the thread topic anyway. The point was to state that even people who think they are acting in a way that is unpreferenced, are not necessarily accurate in their self-perception. Somewhat of a chicken and egg argument. It is possible that it works the best because you use it the most and are better at that method than others. The causality is not clear.