sidoney

Pickle looks great running ... my daughter handles her so I can see her run ... the black and white flash ... Darcie I only see from front on but I can tell that she's tearing it up!!!

We've only attended two weeks with dogs so far ... will post piccies when I have some. We are still in the early stages yet.

It will be some time before Kaos is old enough to learn to jump, plenty of time.

Sheesh, where to start about jumping, it is a huge subject all on its own. Imagine seeing a dog jump while tucking its legs up under itself, head goes down as it jumps as a counter balance, back is rounded, uses its hindquarters in take off and can gets its hind end under it when landing, for the next stride. The dog can jump short (less distance between takeoff and landing, rounded arc) or long (longer distance, flatter arc) as needed, depending on whether it's on a straight or turning, or if there is a second jump to do soon after the first one. The highest point of the dog's arc is over the bar. Now change any of these. Dog's legs not tucked means dog has to get whole weight higher, which is more fatiguing and more impact on landing. Head held high, centre of weight again is higher, plus head up means dog's back is flat, which means a long jumping dog not using its hindquarters properly, this dog may not be able to jump short when needed. Dog's arc not highest over bar means dog is jumping bigger and longer than it needs. There is more to it than this, this is just to give you an idea. To teach a dog to jump properly there are a number of grid type exercises, with different distances between a row of jumps, so that the dog has to use a shorter or longer stride, learns to regulate jump arc, to use its hindquarters, to "bascule" (horse term, means round its spine). Grids can be straight or curved. Curving teaches a dog to jump shorter, to place itself for a turn. There are also single and two jump exercises that you can do. Doing jump training teaches a dog how to judge distances, how to use its body, how to manage fast flat out jumping runs, tight twisty courses, and to be efficient in doing so. Good form in jumping can prevent injury to the dog. This is only a very brief overview but hope it gives you some idea of jumping training and why it's important.

Mooper, Susan is definitely worth going to. If you've not worked with a clicker trainer, would definitely recommend it. Or if you have. I knew Trent when he was up in Sydney. Around the traps and attended the same ADAA camp at one time. Can't remember where I heard/read this, but it was suggested that agility jumping be taught BEFORE flyball jumping, since laying the foundations for a flexible approach to jumping (long and flat or short and round) can encompass flyball jumping, whereas doing only flyball type jumping and later adding agility means that one is actually changing the jumping style. Clover, I really CAN'T keep Darcie. It would be too many dogs. The alternative would be to rehome Pickle, and I can't do that to my daughter, keep an extra one for me and rehome hers. As it is we are working hard to keep Pickle (husband not keen on this number of dogs).

Darcie is definitely NOT staying! We will be keeping a Vizsla puppy most likely next year (fourth generation for me), and six dogs would be too much! Not only that, but I would be wasting her to keep her in terms of a competition dog, as I have a PhD to complete over the next couple of years, and would not be going to comps and so on. However I am enjoying training her and am learning a lot from her, and I hope that her training helps her to find her forever home. I know Dusty quite well, at least did until a year or so ago. He is or was handled in agility by the sister of the girl who handles him in flyball. I don't THINK he had any out-of-the-average bar knocking issues when I saw him work regularly, the main issue was his handler managing such a fast dog. In fact Dusty was the main reason that I first went to one of Deb Kelly's workshops (I was instructing agility at the time and needed to know how to handle the rocket dogs). And it was largely because of that, that I got to know Vickie. Funny how things work, eh? IMO if you did flyball with a dog you would have to work more on jumping style and regularly do gridwork to remind a dog that it can round over jumps as well as jump them flat, and also wrap ... mind you at a Susan Garrett workshop she said she always does that between agility comps anyway, since they get flatter over the duration of the competition. I am hoping flyball gives Xia a bit more oomph. Our tug is coming along, we've been doing more work on that. See how we go. Caro, I know what you mean about backup. I've recently had a health issue which meant I could not run agility. So figured flyball would be a good thing to do with my dogs. Otherwise I'd probably still be doing agility ... I love it and have spent thousands of dollars over the years on workshops, equipment, etc. Hopefully I'll be able to get back into it ... in the meantime we'll do flyball. Who knows? Maybe I'll love that even more. Am looking at auditing Susan Garrett in Canberra next year, both agility and flyball ... anyone else looking at going?

Ellie is enjoying it too (she's 12). It's nice to have a mother-daughter thing to do. Flyball is possibly more young-person-friendly as an introduction to dog sports than agility? Maybe. There is less involved and she doesn't need to be as precise with her own body movements, so she has less to focus on at once. Although she does enjoy our agility training which we do at home. Last night in the kitchen, we practiced turns around the peg - peg was a paper towel holder. :D

And an affectionate sweetie pie. She does everything with such enthusiasm. When she sits, she doesn't just sit, she SITS. When she gives you attention, it's ATTENTION, FOCUSED. She is a little worried by strange things but gets over it quite fast. Last week she wasn't too sure about being held by a stranger for the restrained recalls, this week she was much better and by the later recalls was running back into start position and lining up for the next go. That is her all over. "Hey, that was fun, let's do it AGAIN!!"

Yeow! I get the same thing esp. if I've been lax about toenail trimming.

I've not done flyball before, I've only done obedience and agility and dabbled in tracking and herding. Anyway we have just started flyball at Norwest. My foster, Darcie, looks like she's got real potential. Last night we did a few restrained recalls over hurdles, among other things like turns around the peg and so on. There were various comments about her speed. She really does tear it up when she gets going. And being light and agile, she should have fast turns if trained right. Our other "foster", Pickle, that is looking like staying and being my daughter Ellie's dog, also did very well, although Darcie has the edge on her for speed. Xia, my Kelpie, is going OK but I don't think she'd make a division one dog, at this rate. Darcie DEFINITELY would if she keeps going the way she is.

Arby there are a few places that incorporate clicker training into other kinds of training, what are you looking at doing with it?

I agree with Kirislin, good for you to be willing to work with this and overcome it, that shows commitment.

When I say "pen" I mean a dog run, with shelter and water and a chew toy and room to move. Crate is not the only confinement option.

Goody, I'm starting to look forward to it. I've joined BADSA BTW.

My frustration ATM is that my dog and I are restricted to a small yard where you can't get away from the sheep, even if you try. I've been told by a few people that I respect that my dog needs to develop her instinct and ability to read the sheep before having command put on her. I can't see how to do that. Hopefully things will be better at Bungendore. I'm probably going to only be able to dabble, and I'll probably only do it occasionally, otherwise I'll be wanting something I can't have.

They look lovely together. I see they are lying NEXT to the dog bed!

IMO the run is a good answer for her. I used to pen my dogs when I went out, not because they WOULD get out, but just as it was safer. Now I have MUCH better fencing and more dogs, I don't do it any more, but my "garden" is suffering. Oh well. I would pen them again if I had more pens since I do think it's safer and they sleep most of the time. They may want to look at hiring a pen for a month or so. In that time she may well have settled enough to not want to get out. And the people will know whether a pen is a suitable answer for her. Re electronic containment systems, I've not used one, but I believe the modern ones have automatically variable levels, and start at low level, so it's not like it's got no option but to hurt the dog.

Shades of Darcie (my Kelpie x Whippet). IMO either pen her while they are out or get an electronic containment system, one that is used in conjunction with the existing fence. How long has she been there? Darcie only escaped in the early stages, and now that she feels comfortable here, she doesn't dig or jump to get out (yes, Darcie can go under as well as over). Darcie going over when they went out was the reason that she came back to me from some people that otherwise she would have lived with. If she's not been there long, once Ciara has settled in, the escaping is likely to subside. Otherwise, a roofed pen might be the go - Ciara will likely end up sleeping most of the time that they are out, and they don't have to worry about her.

I agree with that statement. However, I also think that a dog does need to learn how to handle sheep that will run, unless it is going to work dogged sheep all its life. This may be OK if the only sheep the dog sees are the dogged ones, but put that dog in a trial, and if it's never learned to handle sheep that run, then how will it know how to control those sheep? It would be an exceptional dog (and handler) that could manage sheep under those circumstances. IMO how you started Trim was better than dogs that work only at urban centres get, since you had the opportunity and took the time to go and work one on one with a good trainer with good sheep, as well as working the dogged sheep. Good for both of you. My main point I think is that working sheep is resource-heavy. You need sheep, the land to keep them on, and the time to maintain them. You also need to be able to learn from people that know how to do it. Hence my argument that it may be difficult or unrealistic to expect that suburban sheepdogs WOULD have an opportunity to learn to work sheep as well as those that live in environments that DO have those resources. And unrealistic of handlers to expect their dogs to go into a trial and work undogged sheep if their dogs have never worked them before.

It will be mayhem in the back there!!!

For me, I got my Kelpie to do dogsports. Along the way I got interested in herding. The next bit is sort of thinking in text so it may be a bit rambly. Also I'm writing from the viewpoint of someone who got interested but found it difficult to pursue, definitely not someone with a lot of experience or expertise. IMO it would be kind of hard to have it both ways, that is, a club that can properly cater to the good working bred dogs. Someone without regular access to fresh sheep is going to be behind the eight ball in training their dog. Maybe the clubs near suburban and urban areas may as well aim to the suburban herders without desire to do or knowledge of "proper" sheepdog work, that is, doing work with a bit of a challenge with fresh undogged sheep, or without dogs that can. People who know more than me have told me that if my dog works too much on dogged sheep it will harm rather than help her. If all I wanted her to to was to work those kinds of sheep, fine. But I'd rather see her do what she's bred to do well, than some kind of version that approximates it. That's me. To train a dog properly takes more than suburban people typically have access to. Not sure how a club near a city centre would maintain fresh sheep, with herding every weekend, without regular stock turnover, and that may be expensive - not really sure of the mechanics of it. Perhaps a mix of dogged and runny sheep, kind of like Vickie was describing. Can one cater to different kinds of herding wants? A number of people have said to me to develop the heading ability before putting command on the dog, but where I went (near Sydney) was the opposite to that - had to have commands on in a small area before moving to a larger one - early guidance by one of the people there nearly knocked the desire out of my dog to work away and go for the head. Dogs following commands rather than working sheep. It was disappointing for me to take my dog, that I thought was going OK, to "real" sheep and learn just how much neither of us knew. A credit to her that she was looking like she would overcome that early exposure - if only I had regular access to sheep to work. ETA: there is also the issue of sheep welfare. I worry about sheep that are worked for hours, often in hot weather, and often with chasey dogs that may put a bite in. I know they get breaks but they do look very stressed. Mooper, my daughter is coming also with a rescue Border Collie, Pickle - we'll see how Pickle does.

This link will take you to the yahoo group for the new trialing format ... SheepdogTrials_Australia ... Australian Sheep Dog Society. It's still in the formative stages but looks to be better than yard or 3 sheep trials for my dog.

Fingers crossed for Milo!

Neither, I'm interested in the new format that's being set up. My girl is not bred to be a yard dog, although her dad can do yard work but her mother is more of a paddock worker - she may be able to do yard work, but I want to maintain the paddock work. She's not bred to be a 3 sheep dog. Not sure if we'll get to the stage where we can trial, given our lack of ability to train. Lucky you to have some facilities - your ideas sound good. My horses have a 15 acre paddock to themselves, and more grass than they can poke a stick at, but it's half an hour away from my place, and I worry about marauding dogs mauling them. So I've not gone any further with it.

Just want to jump in here on the "get them interested and then they will get a good dog and get into trialing" theme. This would be great IF there are the facilities for suburban dog owners like me to effectively train dogs. Now apparently EP is getting better - that would be good - but even if you have a working bred dog - which I have - if you don't have sheep that will behave like sheep you get nowhere with the dog and it's very frustrating. I drove from Sydney to Geelong last January to take my dog to her breeder's place and improve our sheep work - to find out that she'd never learned how to head because of those overdogged sheep - we spent the time encouraging her to head, out in the 5 acre paddock, was pleased that eventually we got to the point where she WOULD head them and not let them get away to their favourite treed corner. But it took time. And when I get back to Sydney, nowhere to go to let her head sheep that will actually run. So what do I do? I worked sheep with her once since our trip, but know that I need to keep with the heading - not much chance for that. I've basically given it away as I understand that tailing overdogged sheep will be detrimental to her herding. Going to a few hours workshop in Bungendore next month, hopefully that will be good, but I just don't know where to go with it. I went and watched a short course trial at EP - last year I think. Seemed like a number of dogs there did not know how to go to the head, but chased the sheep around. Variety of breeds including dogs one might imagine would work, not show type dogs (and a few show type dogs). I'd venture to guess these dogs have never worked sheep that actually run, and make them learn to head.