sidoney

You have some good advice here, if conflicting. Simply, he needs some groundwork to give you more control and respect. Yielding to you, respecting your space, watching for your moves and moving with you. Moving front, rear, whole body in the direction you want, at a small signal or body shift from you. As was said, make it easy for him to do what you want, and make it uncomfortable for him to do what you don't want. I'd be drawing the line at what I accept in hand. Prancing is not on, unless loose in the paddock (or unless I'm handling something like a halter Arabian). Keep an eye on his body language and stop the sillies before they turn into rearing. You still need to do some work with him on his front legs - he should accept having his legs worked on. Don't accept the stamping and pulling away. Reward him for standing nicely, make him work if he plays up. He needs to understand control and respect in all areas, not just some. It's across the board. I use a mix of the so called natural horse training, and also clicker training (although my click is a mouth noise, a reverse "t", as it's too difficult to do the clicker as well as all the rest). So for the front feet, I'd click and reward holding the feet up, and extend the time, and I'd back the horse up or lunge in small circles if he pulls the feet away. IMO backing up is more severe. Obviously you need to teach the horse a good backup on the ground first, and also the small circle work first, before using it as something to get the horse to do instead of something you don't want it to do. The worst horse I had for rearing was a colt I showed in hand for some people who were not great horse handlers. He was an intelligent and quite dominant horse. (Took after his sire.) He used to rear with them and pull away and get what he wanted. He had amazing balance and could stay up, and high, for ages. Unfortunately because his handling was not consistent, it was hard to get him out of his ways. However probably the most effective way to get him down if he was up for a while was to slip around beside him while he was up and give him a wallop on the butt, then immediately drive him forward into the small circle lunging. Backing up sometimes sent him up again if he'd just been up. He decreased a lot of his cheeky ways with me but knew the difference between handlers. I think you probably need to use a groundwork programme with this horse to establish the kind of relationship you have with him, rather than working piecemeal, a bit here, a bit there. Edit: I just read about the 4m wide path, missed that, the suggestion to set the situation up is the one that's going to help you here. Work with him in a safe area, with gradually increasing levels of distraction/conditions that lead him to prance and rear.

Hi folks This is kind of tangential, but mention was made of halters not coming with a DVD - thought I'd mention I did get a DVD with a halter I bought. It was a Gentle Leader. From the CleanRun shop website:

That's good about the rule change ... I had an inkling that there might have been one, but it really has been years since I've done obedience. I had to make a decision once about coats pre the rule change, on a bitter morning in Mudgee. Much more difficult to decide if you have to try to figure out what the weather will be. Love the piccies, love the one of Harvey with the Vizsla of course (it also gives me an idea of scale ), and the lure coursing one is just so cute!

You may want to check rules for dog coats. I've not trialed in obedience for a while, but when I was, if they wore a coat they had to do so for the whole class, not just for the group stays. I'd love to see a photo of Harvey being an obedience doggie, as distinct from a couch potato. I had this wonderful image of the group stays, from your description.

Titre tests were done at All Natural Vet Care, Russell Lea, in Sydney. Here is a link to a fact sheet they provide about vaccinations and titre tests. The cost was less than it normally would have been as my training club obtained a discount for numbers. I don't really remember what I paid, sorry. ETA: My usual vet is Karen Hedberg at North Richmond.

I've been titre testing and not vaccinating, although after a conversation with my (good) vet, I had one of them boosted, as she was due to be mated, to make sure that the pups would have maximum maternal coverage.

My lot never had any problems with the heads, when they used to arrive with necks.

Yup, toys to train with, the special ones you don't leave around.

Erny, you guess right. I mean my own dogs. (Edit coz I spelled "Ernie" - sorry - I'll blame this darn virus *sniff sniff sneeze*)

What do you think regarding the sharing or not of training toys? Should each dog have their own toy(s) that no other dog has, and what is the relative effectiveness of having (a) communal toy(s) (used during one on one training)? I've done this as a poll but would be interested in the reasoning behind your choice.

LOL yes of course, but that tells me nothing about breeding.

What, anyone would think you are having a baby or something! What? Who is Whisper? Where is a thread for her? Weren't you getting a Kelpie? Quick, spill the beans! Edit: it's OK, I did a search. I suppose I can't call you a traitor, having Pickle here and all.

edit: oops, bit of a bug there, double post.

pinnicle, thanks very much for your input, you have definitely given me more to go on with than I had before. It would be great to meet up some time. That is very much Shaula. I have had to let her know she's allowed to tug the toy. She would just say, oh, you want it? OK. Once she learned that I wanted her to tug, then she became happy to tug, but not a tug monster. Part of it was getting down low in relation to her while making the toy active (initially a rolled up face washer), and part of it was lots of praise when she took it in her mouth, and letting her have it. Also letting her decide what pressure to use, resisting her pull rather than trying to pull it myself. Each of my dogs teaches me something. Hopefully one day I'll have learned enough. I think I also did food rewards with her too. I've not concentrated on tugging with her that much, although I did go to a tug workshop with her, with a scent detection trainer. I did this with my fearful foster, Darcie. Chasing and tugging at a distance with her was the answer to getting her over her fears. She learned to tug right up close and became a very strong tugger (VERY strong!) that would tug in strange environments, etc. Oh and a MONSTER at lure coursing (said with a very big grin and wink).

I've heard of dogs at trials in the US being left in crates with a container of food on top and a sign saying "please feed me when I'm quiet"! It helps to associate the reward with the behaviour rather than with the owner, to have different people give the reward.

Just quickly, it may be possible so long as you were in the early stages, and he was not over emotional about it. This is the problem I had with one of my doggies (foster). I had to start with little steps and then build up as she learned resilience to being left out of the training session. If it gets too "tantyish" then it's too late. You know your own dog better than I do (!!!!) but with my rescue, I could not have used a negative on her as it would have stressed her out too much. The positive reinforcement for quiet was a good way to settle her and help her relax.

Yes, out of home, LOL, sorry for not being clear. I need to make it clear that current personal circumstances mean that I'm more of an intermittent rather than constant dog trainer at the moment. I was working on activating the toy and having her chase then catch it, and it was working well as I moved it out the front and then to the park,and further like in front of Maccas. However going to an agility trial to spectate was too big a step, and I didn't really have the time or facilities for intermediate steps. I went back to baby steps and had her tug for food in the kitchen. The next time we spectated at an agility trial, she understood that she would get the food by tugging. I have continued to work on this and also on tugging without food in various contexts. I'm happy to say that the last time we spectated at a trial she was keen to tug in that context with food nowhere in sight. However, I'm not convinced that it is reliable at the moment. Also I don't think that she would "work all day" for it, as some dogs do. It may be that I'm just trying to put her into a mould to which she is not best suited. She loves to get a toy and kill it, squeakers are great, and if she can disembowel it, that's even better. Here's a question again of how uncritically one should accept recommended training methods. I have been told, and have read, that tug is an interactive game. If I give her a toy to kill on her own, then to what extent do I lose the benefits of that interactivity? So I guess that's two main questions. One is how to increase the desire for the toy. And the other is how much should I ask her to play my preferred game, and how much should I play her preferred game? (I welcome comments from anyone on these questions - of course the first one has been gone over again and again, which is why I'm interested particularly in pinnacle's input, as I've not yet had a chance to pick her brains! )

I did too much control with my Kelpie when she was young, and it's taken quite a bit to get her back into play. Our best success was pairing tug with treat. Now she tugs, chases squeaky, etc. 'coz she loves it. Still working on getting it "out and about". Pinnacle dts, I'd very much like to hear your input on that. Ultimately I want to use it for agility. We're having Vizsla pups in a few months and I'm keeping one - I'll be putting much more of my time into playing with the puppy. My first Vizsla, Amy, was very "well behaved" but she was trained in a way that was not conducive to motivation, before I knew better, and I think a lot of her natural exuberance was suppressed. In certain situations anyway. My next one (Shaula, her daughter, now ten) was one of the first clicker trained ob titled dogs in Aust but back then in clicker training, the emphasis was more on food and less on toy. Still, she did learn to tug and play at an older age, and she does love to play agility. I have used tug in the show ring (with Cedar, now six) and will do so again, more in fact, with the pup I will soon have. I want that excitement and sparkle that playing with toys gives. Has anyone else done it? I would also like comments on "transfer of value" of reward, if anyone has any. That has to do with Premack, that Vickie mentioned. Susan Garrett talks about it in her book on her experiences training her dog Buzz.

This is a good situation for a Treat and Train - a remote rewarder (tone and reward dispense, plus has a few other functions). I used one for exactly the same kind of behaviour and found that it was very useful. Training needed a high rate of reward at first, and shorter distance and separation period esp. with the more excitable and stressy dog, but all the dogs I used it with improved quickly to the point where I could use it when training. It's also a very effective crate training tool. They are not being made any more, but a new version is coming out in October, called the Manners Minder. The Manners Minder has a variable frequency so you can use multiple units in a training session - good for rewarding different dogs in different crates, or for direction training at a distance, etc. I bought two of the TnTs coz I found them useful - I'll get one of the new ones so I can use more than one unit at once. You may be able to pick up a second hand TnT on Ebay, esp. once the Manners Minder comes out with its multiple frequencies. And NO, I don't have any interest in the company! LOL! I just like them for training.

Please come back and give us feedback!

From the picture it looks like the "lock down" position may be in the "correction limit" position. If this is so, then it may need to be adjusted before being used as a martingale. The picture is not clear.

I treat them differently depending on what the dog needs from me, in a non rank sense. So I play more tug with the Kelpie than with the Vizslas, etc.

IMO some people get dogs because it's a cultural norm that goes along with certain types of social situations (e.g. family with a yard out the back, get a dog), and they don't really think about it. In these cases "relationship" as such is often minimal. If you look at pet shelter statistics you can see that there are many people who get dogs with minimal relationship and not much forethought.

Oh goodie! She and Xia will meet somewhere, some time then - they would look very nice together too.

Good luck, I hope it's a great match!