koalathebear

I don't have a problem with using DAP - just saying there might not be a need to use it at the first instance when other measures may do the trick. That's just me, though and it's of course totally a matter for the OP if they want to use DAP.

Well, bemused as I am by the Show Thing, I'd pay good money to see young James in the Stacked position. It would be too cute! KumaAkita: (1) I would not have noticed the 'lipstick' until you pointed it out; (2) I am so embarrassed but I actually was looking around his mouth for lipstick/red lips for quite a while; (3) you can't just photoshop out the poor boy's lipstick. :D More emasculated puppy!! wuffles: I'm glad Ava's ok. I have never seen her so subdued and quiet!! Hope she stays that composed for the next few days to assist in her healing. Max#1: Max is lookin' really distinguished and yet still so cute and cuddley. I think his wavy bum is a hoot. Elbie does have a bit of a 'ruff' - his fur fluffs up around his collar. Hoover also has a bad habit of biting his cheeks - naughty Hoover. I also approve of the shortness of his snout. My two will have long snouts, alas. :D I watched the first episode of "The Walking Dead" but I keep calling it "Walking the Dead" and OH is all: "It's not like they're dogs or something!!"

That's what I had been told and also what I had assumed based on what I had read at the WKC website, but in this thread there were comments that it wasn't just show breeders who were trying to 'distinguish' their dogs but also the working line breeders. I have no way of knowing what's what ... Kavik - just saw your post about cream Kelpies. I've never seen one in person, just photos. I wonder if cream Kelpies are considered 'good' or bad. Also, I notice that white isn't part of either standard, working or bench. Does this mean that the blaze that some working line Kelpies have is in fact 'cream'? I am so bad with colours :D

I can't see anyone promoting a crossbreed - aren't people just talking about what their own dog's fur is like? As for my own dogs, they seem pretty easy to dry although Elbie has a habit of running away from the towel and then shaking out the water all over me. :D Lucky I have Easy Care Skin.

Catching up properly .. Post-desexing stitches, always so stressful, especially for those of us with monsters who are so good at unpicking stitches on stuffed toys. Give us some photos of Miss Roo soon, lilli_star! I also want to see Max flyball training videos! I'd love to see an Akita doing agility or flyball, too! It would be so cute! On a distantly related note, wuffles pointed out to me the other day that we have a French bulldog at BDOC. So cute! I think that would just open you up to a world of unnecessary upset It would be like having lots of people telling you that you have an ugly baby … I cringe to think of what Conformists would say about Elbie or Hoover … They have nice teeth but perhaps they have wonky hocks, dud withers, spastic mandibles and defective ocular sockets .. True … I have to say that of late, each rescue dog I've been given to do a video for is getting 'uglier' than the last … They're proving difficult to rehome and they're probably the antithesis of conformity. Sigh … I have to confess doing videos for them is a bit tricky, too.. My two doggies wee like girls although Elbie will very occasionally lift his leg and do the Boy Thing. I've never seen him mark anything – he WAS desexed at 10 weeks so maybe that has something to do with it? But of course! :D Will definitely vote for my favourite akita. My two work colleagues here had never heard of/seen an akita before so I spent 10 minutes showing them photos of Kuma and then the Wikipedia link to Hachi Yay! So glad she's ok. Good luck keeping her calm tonight!

One of the posters further up mentioned that working line breeders might be breeding away from solids to distinguish from the bench Kelpies. To be honest, when I was looking for Hoover, I didn't see photos for many/any solids when looking at the websites for working line Kelpies - all were two tones, whether red and tan or black and tan. What about show breeders focusing on solids then? There doesn't seem to have been any compromise/detriment on the basis of colour.

OK, I have photos to justify our existence in this sub-forum

I've been reading the blue staffy thread and now I'm curious. Over there they say that breeding for colour will always compromise other things about a dog – health/temperament etc. If that is the case, then in a Kelpie context, how does this translate to the fact that show Kelpie breeders are tending to breed towards solid colours and away from mixed colours and working line Kelpie breeders might be breeding away from solid colours … although 4kelpies post seems to indicate that working line breeders might still be fine with solid colours.

I was a bit concerned about that comment, too because the same breeder had mentioned in the rare colour thread: The reason was very rational i.e. to make sure that those colours didn't cause a 'bad' type of dog to become the next craze. The thread was almost shut down because there was one poster who got quite outraged at the thought of healthy puppies being put to sleep etc. To be fair though, in the blue staffy thread, I think that the breeder was just saying that she wouldn't think of showing a blue staffy like the one that the OP of that thread owns etc. Don’t' know though … can't judge I suppose because I'm not a breeder and it must be a dilemma if you end up with non-conforming puppies - can't keep them because that drains your own resources, but can put them out there because that creates publicity and a demand for 'badly conformed' dogs. I suppose I still struggle a lot with the whole 'show' thing because it seems strange to expect temperament and physical perfection from an animal … I'm more comfortable with expecting physical ability from a dog – dog sports, obedience etc. For me dog shows, I get a bit of discomfort from dog shows because they feel to me like child beauty pageants or something. I know that this is irrational and that shows are there for the betterment of the breed blah blah blah but I guess I'm just happy with my two pet doggies who I will hopefully never put up to be judged for their rag tag appearance … ETA: wuffles you are right - I know it's a minority view and the majority of the people here love their dogs - motley, non-conforming, ugly or cute-ugly or lovely as the case may be .. I guess I can't help but 'respond' even in my head when I see some posts that make me go: "Yoicks!"

How about this gorgeous lovely? Thanks to the person who sent me the link!

I can't agree with Nekhbet enough on this one. I'm not saying never use DAP, I'm just saying that I wouldn't go to it in the first instance. If your pup doesn't settle after days and days, then maybe use it but it really is so NORMAL and expected for the little ones to holler and carry on when they first arrive that it's best just to let them work through it.

Good luck to Ava!! I hope she's ok and doesn't miss you too much. Do you get to pick her up today or does she stay overnight for observation? Normally don't disagree with you wuffles, dear but in that thread, there are some people who are implying that 'just a pet' should also be conforming even if it's not for show. There are heaps of people on DOL who do love non-conforming dogs but there are certainly ones out there who are disapproving of non-conforming pets. The further issue is that if one had a conforming dog that was very awesome, if one did not show it - there would be people here who jump up and down because it's selfish not to 'do' something with it and just 'waste' it as a pet. Not everyone in the world is as rational and chilled as you with your lovely pedigree and lovely pound puppy ... So cute. Have you been able to get James in one of those adorable 'stack' poses that they do to show dogs? that always looks so cute with puppies because I can imagine if it was one of my dogs, the head would be looking back going: "Where's my treat??"

I was hoping you'd come here, though! Someone was asking a question about show Kelpies and dog sports and I was hoping you'd discuss your fur kids and their achievements. Speaking of which - are you still coming to Canberra for flyball? OH and I were going to come and cheer - also meet you and the doggies Seriously ... I've come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, it comes down to whatever people want and what works best for their lifestyle. I don't think anyone should ever be criticising someone else's choice in dog whether it's for breed reasons (unless it's the whole BYB/puppy farm thing) or for working line/show line reasons. There are so many dogs out there that I adore but just couldn't ever imagine owning but I'd never feel I was entitled to criticise. To be honest, when we set out looking for doggy #2, we didn't really understand the show Kelpie/working line Kelpie distinction. We just thought a Kelpie was a Kelpie was a Kelpie. We learned a lot from chatting to show Kelpie breeders about owning two Kelpies generally but we weren't able to find a single show Kelpie breeder that was breeding red and tan/intended to breed red and tans/knew of any other breeder who was intending to breed red and tans. Working line breeders don't breed red and tans specifically but they are extremely common in working lines so that's when we ended up talking to the Working Kelpie Council and lots of working line breeders. We had originally been a bit apprehensive about getting a working line dog based on what we'd read on DOL and thought that perhaps with Elbie (cross between two working line dogs) we'd just gotten lucky and shouldn’t push our luck but so many of the breeders and Kelpie owners said what Vickie said above which is that a good, well-bred working line Kelpie can make a good pet, has an off-switch and IS very adaptable. So we didn't go into getting a working line Kelpie because we thought it was better than the other, it kind of just happened I’m sure we could just as easily have got a show Kelpie if one of the show breeders had said: "Woohoo, I have a red and tan." I was semi-joking … :D Hoover comes with the usual WKC guarantee that if he can't work sheep, the breeder has to take him back so presumably he should actually be able to work sheep – it's not something we are fussed about since he's a pet. We'll take him along to do herding at some point to see if he has any ability and in case he finds it fun. What you say is consistent with what WKC and the breeders all told us. I received quite a bit of caution about taking on a pup that was already 3 months old and past certain critical socialisation periods but then people who were more experienced with working line Kelpies were pretty comfortable that Kelpies are pretty adaptable things and take late socialisation into their stride pretty well. All of them also said that it was a bit of a misperception that working line Kelpies were too high energy/hard to manage. Even though Hoover was consistent with what we were told that a dog of his breeding should be, we couldn't help wondering if we were just lucky. Despite never being in a car before, he was driven from the breeder's farm, 30 km to Kempsey, then transported from Kempsey to Sydney, then Sydney to Canberra and then drive home … he's also been in the car heaps since then and been totally fine. He's such a self-possessed, confident and chilled little doggie – a bit naughtier/more inquisitive than Elbie is but overall very delightful. aussielover: Well it's possible that we just got lucky with our two … the doggies are in the yard for quite a bit sometimes and seem fine with that, especially now that there are two of them. They definitely prefer being in the house, though

I'd hope so. I was reading the line that said: No dog is perfect and every dog will have it's faults, but geeez, why wouldn't you give yourself the best shot at buying a pup that has good conformation and the potential to remain sound. i.e. even if you're not going to show, the better the conformation of the dog, the better the pet you're going to get. I think about all the ugly/non-conforming dogs in the pound and my own ugly non-conforming doggies and guess they're lucky that they got OH and me who will love them the way they are. I guess I'm lucky they love me for who I am even though I have allergies, am chubbier than I should be, also short-sighted, have no lung capacity and in no way conforming to the Perfect Human Breed Standard ...

It had to happen!

"The dog is not cute" "I do not personally find the dog cute" The tone and intended meaning might perhaps be different but the end result is the same given that no one here can claim to be the Ultimate Objective Arbiter of Cuteness, no matter how declaratory, definite and emphatic we might sound when passing judgement. When opining on whether something is cute or not cute, the "in my opinion" must always be implied given that there is no objective standard of Cuteness as there aren't the benchmarks that exist when judging if a dog has what it takes to make it in the show ring. There's Cute, there's Cute Ugly and there's Cute Nice which is as damning as Nice ... Of course there's no obligation to sugar-coat things. There's no mandatory law saying we have to be nice ... while I think it was a wee bit harsh to tell someone her beloved doggie is not cute (in my opinion, the puppy in question is cute ;), I am also one of those people that don't automatically think that all puppies are cute - I don't also believe that all babies are cute. Some are ... not so cute ...

There's a lot of very confusing information about there, I'm afraid and at the end of the day, it probably comes down to the breeders and the individual dogs themselves. People are always telling me that working line Kelpies are very high energy, drivey, unsuited for suburban homes but we own a Kelpie cross/border collie (working lines) and one pure-bred working line Kelpie and both definitely have off-switches. The pure-bred can be naughty but generally he is as placid as a cow, as the people on DOL who have met him will attest. Both dogs can play hard but their favourite thing is snoozing near us. They're not particularly destructive and we find them very low-maintenance and they fit in with our cruisy, non-energetic lifestyles. On the other hand, other people have nightmare experiences with their working line dogs and there's a reason why there are so many poor Kelpies/Kelpie crosses at the pound At the end of the day, it's probably just important to find a well-bred Kelpie (bench or working line) that has been chosen carefully with you in mind. When we got Hoover, we described our circumstances and our current dog in great detail to the breeder and she picked out Hoover as the puppy most suitable for us. He was a farm dog who had never been socialised outside of his own litter and pack, he'd never been off the farm, in a car, heard a vacuum cleaner, electric mixer or washing machine but he has been totally fine with us and taken on all new experiences in his stride. I don't attribute that to the fact that he is a 'working line' Kelpie so much as the fact that he has a good temperament and his breeder knew her puppies well. So many people have been horrified that we got not just one but two working line doggies as pets but seriously, as I type this - they're both snoozing peacefully in their dog beds. Good luck in your search for a second dog. I don't think you need to worry about the bench Kelpies being too laid back. Woofen on DOL has bench Kelpies and they participate in flyball with great success! ETA: Off-Switch Activated

Kumaakita: I was impressed that the monsters could sleep through the Rockband Challenge. You guys should come over some time (when your timetable is less crazy) and we can see if we can wake the dogs. Perhaps that's our problem. I see great value in loose-leash walking with doggy checking back with us every now and then but the formal heel is so frustrating for US that perhaps Elbie senses we don't care for it much either. Max#1: Having two dogs IS a lot of extra work but it really is so cool the way they keep each other entertained, how cute it is to see two dogs trotting up to the door/fence to greet you. Their faces are so funny lilli_star: If Roo is anything like Elbie and Hoover, it doesn't matter how much she eats - she can always eat more. Our doggies love food so much and they're so food-motivated it's not funny. Is that a koala bear that Roo has been chewing on? Thanks for the feedback on the video. I feel so sorry for Brandy - he looks so sad in the pound and he must be so happy to be out but foster care is only temporary and he has to find a forever home! So far, Smudge, Lucy and Rosie have been rehomed. There's been a lot of interest in Matilda, Chief, Bella and Marley because of the videos but I'm not sure about any of the others ... I am hopeful they can all find homes soon. Our dogs didn't freak out during the storm, but they have been extremely naughty today – probably frustrated with being cooped up in the house or something … Hoover's gone over the little barrier in the yard and got himself trapped again. No idea why he wants to go there – there's nothing there except mud and rubbish left by the previous owners. OH is now busy pondering how to build a higher barrier. Both monsters keep rebelling and refusing to go to Poo Corner – Hoover likes to poop on the lawn, Elbie likes a section not far from our bedroom window! Thanks for the feedback about the video guys. It occurs to me that you really do have to have a special state of mind to be a 'happy' dog owner. There's the disinterested dog owner who lives the dog in the backyard, there's the long-suffering dog owner and there's the dog owner who realises that a dog is a dog is a dog and sometimes he/she will dig/jump/bark/pull clothes off the line …/toilet in the wrong spot/refuse to listen … We don't like it but it doesn't make us angry so much as rueful … I am quite baffled by the people who seem so surprised when Dog does something Dogly. Frustration is natural but surprise and anger is a bit odd … I feel sad that so many dogs are abandoned because people approached dog ownership with incorrect expectations. I think one of the breeders I spoke to said something like … city people expecting that their Kelpies should be able to assemble a radio or something. For obedience generally – we have been pretty lucky with teachers. I still can't see us ever wanting to get to the trialling point … We like our Saturday behavioural classes and we enjoy Sundays at BDOC but all the fiddley bits about dog standing here or there or leash in a certain loop or hands being a certain way don't seem Fun for us … I'd like Elbie to become a calm, well-mannered dog that behaves well around other dogs and some of the exercises we do are very good for that - like the weaving in and out of handlers and dogs exercises and the controlled greetings etc. I think it's funny that my two dogs have such different personalities - good traits and naughty traits. Hoover's so calm and placid. Good in new situations, not high strung, well-behaved at the vet's and in the car. BUT he digs like a monster and has a bad habit of exploring and pooing Out of Bounds. Elbie on the other hand is a monster in the car, hyperactive and excitable but so trainable and smart and also very well-behaved in terms of the yard and playing with Hoover. He'll go to his dog bed on command, he'll behave when Hoover's being naughty. Hoover and OH stopped by the vet's today. OH sent me an email that said: "She asked if he could do high-five like Elbie and I gave her the list of tricks he could do, adding that he seems fairly smart despite his dopey eyes. She said her kelpie is the same...very smart but has a very dim-witted expression. Maybe it's a kelpie thing??" Poor Hoover and his dim-witted expression. What was funny last night was that I was feeling tired and lying on the day bed in the room next to the study. Normally at night, after Elbie's crated, Hoover will scamper from the study, up the stairs of the kitchen and into the bedroom to his crate. Last night, I was resting - probably asleep and OH was putting Elbie into his crate. He came back to find Hoover and puppy was gone - which was weird given that the kitchen sliding door closed. Then OH heard a squeaking sound from our bedroom and realised that the baby gate from the study was open so Hoover must have got up to try to go to HIS crate and found the kitchen sliding door closed, trotted back through the study, past me sleeping on the day bed, up the stairs of the lounge, down the longish corridor in the dark, found our dark bedroom and got into his crate and started playing with his squeaker ;) Gone are the days when Hoover got confused and lost in the house. ;) I know this thread needs more photos but I didn't take any today! The puppies did try their first roo tails tonight and seemed to LOVE them. ETA: because I don't want to new post to draw attention to me but in reading threads like this one, I am now scared to ever post a photo of my dogs on DOL again in case their Non-Cuteness is Judged. I know dogs and humans are different, but sometimes I wonder how humans who are so rabidly scathing about non-conformance by dogs with show breed standards would fare against the Human Breed Standard. Would they be perfect or would there be non-conformance?

I love the photos on the WKC website and the herding videos, too. Those Kelpies are so amazing with what they can do. I totally agree with you on this. I think the show Kelpies look very lovely but the way I feel about them is the same way I feel about many other breeds of dogs that I admire but wouldn't necessarily own. We've already decided that we're Kelpie people now and prefer the look and temperament of the working line Kelpies. Like you, I like that they're still used for their original purpose and that they're so smart and responsive. I appreciate that they don't conform with the Show standard but all of that perfection would be lost on me anyway

I have never actually met a show Kelpie but from understand around DOL that there are DOLers here whose show Kelpies participate in herding, flyball, agility and general obedience. :rolleyes:

Poor you. I sympathise. Elbie our kelpie border collie cross went through a phase where he liked digging the occasional hole. He doesn't like poo so putting poop in the holes he dug deterred him from digging again. Too easy, maybe ... Karma struck Then we got Hoover our little Kelpie and he LOVES to dig. He's not bored, he just seemed to get intense enjoyment out of it and some of the holes he dug were pretty massive – could fit two of him in them. Poo in the hole was a mild deterrent but he'd just dig around or dig new holes. A while back, I read a suggestion that at the time I thought was pretty funny but didn't think was workable (i.e. throw a bucket of water on the dogs) but when Hoover just kept digging, we decided we'd try it. We kept half a bucket of water near the back door and when we saw them digging, OH runs outside and throws the water – not on the dogs but near them. They're not actually scared of the water but it seems to make Hoover 'understand' that digging is a no no more than anything else we do does! Good luck with the lawn.

LS: Also very glad to hear that Miss Roo is back safe and sound, albeit smelly. I wonder what on earth they did to make her smelly You'll have to teach her sedate tricks to keep her still

Just a flyby post - we gave the monsters lamb flaps tonight. Outside because they're messy. The heavens opened and the rain came bucketing down. All were most thoroughly drenched despite our ineffectual pergola thing ...

I was just pondering the fact that part of the 'problem' with Kelpies is that they can be kind of a generic-looking dog ... such a variety of colours, ears, coats - any Mystery Dog gets labelled "kelpie cross" and I've heard that over the years, there are a lot of dingo crosses out there that have been labelled kelpie crosses. Niques: I forgive you :D Working line Kelpies are not everyone's cup of tea, although my chunky monkey Hoover doesn't seem to realise he's supposed to be sleek and leggy. :D Thanks for the info. I will definitely be following his progress with great interest!! Also, while I have a Kelpie expert in the room - do you know when Kelpie's ears are supposed to go 'up'? Hoover's 4months plus now and for a while it looked as though his left ear was On The Rise but it has sunk down again I'm not fussed because I love his ears whether up or down, but I was just curious.

Ah ... Kelpie aren't supposed to be chunky because they're supposed to be able to walk on sheeps' backs. My puppy (here) would probably never be a good sheep dog because he's far too chunky for a working dog, but we love him anyway