koalathebear

Does nurture (training and upbringing) have anything to do with this 'presence'? Will a beautifully bred, stunningly conformed purebred dog that has been neglected in socialisation and training sense still have this presence? Surely presence must be the amalgam of a number of variables including the owner? This beautifully bred, stunningly conformed purebred dog under the care of High Lady Froolaloo will probably fare quite differently the hands of Mr. Chopper Boganhead or is this je ne sais quoi presence to which you refer arise purely out of the breeding?

If it will make you feel better, I will say this ... just imagine how you would have felt if neighbour GSD had impregnated Ruby and you had ended up with a litter of GSD/lab puppies (which are actually kind of ugly, gotta tell you)? Also imagine how you would have felt if this happened and I posted in BIG RED letters on DOL (twice in the Breeders Sub-forum) what you had done and how you hadn't desexed your dog ... :rolleyes: While there may be some on DOL and elsewhere that disapprove of your decision to desex Ruby at that age, there are probably even larger numbers that would disapprove and slay you with paper cuts and lemon juice if you had not desexed her! All we can do is make what decisions seem right based on our own circumstances and the information we have to hand. You are the one who has to live with the consequences and you have to decide. I would have done the same thing. Heaps of dogs are desexed 'youngish' with no adverse harm. We only hear about the Scary Cases, alas ...

At the end of the day, what turns most people's heads is what they personally find unusual/interesting/attractive/cute. You could take the most beautiful, stunningly conformed Pedigree Little Dog down the street and some people would run screaming for the hills because they just hate little dogs and couldn't give a damn how conformed they were. Similarly, you could take the most beautiful, stunningly conformed Pedigree Large Dog down the street and others would run away in blind terror. As mentioned, in reality, how unusual the breed is or how unusual the dog looks will have more of an impact on the average person than just being a well-bred, conformed dog. A dog with different coloured-eyes, dramatic markings, a rare dog, a dog that is unusually small or large - all of these will draw attention regardless of conformance to standard. If you take a garden variety labrador or Kelpie down the road, chances are you won't get that much comment no matter how much a breeder/shower is likely to exclaim over it. Some find pug faces cute, others find them ugly. Even within the breed you'll see different standards of beauty (GSD hindquarters for instance), GSD/White Shepherd. Working line/show line dog. There are quite a few well-bred stunningly conformed dogs out there that I'm sure many of the general public would find positively hideous but even the dog that won the ugliest dog in the world competition had an owner that loved it. When a beautiful, stunningly conformed dog is taken down the road, I really think it's only going to be those in the somewhat exclusive 'in the know' club that will fully appreciate it for its conformance and be exclaiming over its hocks, teeth and eye sockets. The rest of the world will judge it by their own standards of beauty/appearance and whether it is a well-behaved or socialised dog. In this particular instance, it is probably fair to say that the standards by which most people judge a dog isn't that different from the standard we use to like/love the appearance of a human. It's an emotive response - we can love something that objectively speaking is imperfect. When we love or admire another human or a dog, we can discard or even make a virtue of a fault/flaw. I realise there's a distinction between cute/beautiful and 'well confirmed and put together', I'm just trying to decide if the theory posited in the original post is true. I know this isn't the same if you're a breeder/show dogs/have had experience breeding/showing dogs but let's face it, even though I don't have the statistics to paw at my keyboard, I can guarantee that the percentage of the population who have formal breeding/showing experience is pretty small ... Take it further, to fully appreciate a beautiful, stunningly conformed dog you also have to have breeding/showing experience within that breed. For instance, I found out when asking my Kelpie questions about colour that heaps and heaps of people who are very experienced within their own chosen breed were apparently not describing Kelpie colours accurately. If I took a beautiful, stunningly conformed working line Kelpie and put it before a breeder who was not familiar with Kelpies, I'm not sure that he or she would fully appreciate the beauty of that Kelpie. Recently there was a thread about wonky SBT paws and while some people were saying that those paws were a Big No-No, a breeder of another breed said that such wonky paws were a Somewhat Smaller No-No because with his/her breed, such paws could improve with age. OH and I aren't dog experts by any stretch of the imagination and we have no knowledge of conformance to standard but we do love dogs so when we see a dog, we're usually trying to guess the breed or combination. Then we remark on the behaviour like: "Wow, it's so calm and well-behaved" or "Look how it's pulling its owner along". For us as spectators, whether it's purebred or crossbred is usually irrelevant - we care more about how well-behaved it is. I think that the underlying premise of the thread as contemplated by the poster does have a degree of validity in the sense that if more well-bred, conformed, well-behaved and socialised dogs are out there in public for people to see, then they these dogs have more visibility and exposure to the members of the general public who may have a predisposition to be interested in that type of dog. To take the analogy further that some of you have used that your pedigree dog is like a beautiful masterpiece of art - if you want more exposure to the artwork, it should be on display in an art gallery rather than locked away in a private collection. You are trying to tell people that "having a well-bred, beautifully conformed dog is not just for the snobby elite - you, too can have one." That being said, I guess the reason I found the original post a bit weird was because I had always assumed that well-bred, conformed dogs were already 'out there' because not only were they being shown etc, like your garden variety dog they also had to be walked for exercise so I had bizarre and wild visions of owners of well-bred, stunningly conformed dogs only walking their dogs in secret laneways and alleys where they could not be seen by Others. Also, I can't help thinking that for some breeds, exclusivity and rareness is part of the charm. I can imagine that for some people, if everyone started trotting around with one of their sorts of dogs, no matter how well-bred, beautiful and stunningly conformed it was, they'd be a bit miffed. Kind of like how one used to be in an elite clique that liked so and so singer before she went mainstream. :rolleyes: I think a lot of people may enjoy the relative exclusivity of their 'club' and may not want the great unwashed masses joining. It's a bit like how guide dogs are an amazing 'ad' for the labrador but most people don't realise that labradors aren't born that well-trained and you actually have to work at it ...

We are also doing laundry but we'll be using the dryer today instead of the clothes horse. As mentioned before, this house doesn't even have an outdoor clothesline. :D Weirdly enough, OH thought it was strange that people here use their outdoor lines, apparently in Canada it's more normal to use the dryer!! I said that growing up, we always hung up the clothes outside and didn't even own a dryer. Then when we did get a dryer, it was only for wet days or clothes we need to dry urgently. Anyway, the doggies show no interest in pulling the clothes off the indoor clothes horse and having no clothes drying outside removes temptation from them ... lilli_star: good luck with the reports. I agree ... I also think it was a huge mistake to post about such an emotional and distressing topic here without knowing the dynamics of the place first A post like that was never going to get a receptive hearing. Also, rehoming an animal to better circumstances isn't always a bad thing. Our teacher on Sunday owns a jack russell terrier that was rehomed to her. It is apparently a chicken and a cat killer - will kill any small animal it encounters. Its previous owners couldn't handle it but our instructor worked with the dog for a while and the dog was fine when it was with her pack. When they tried putting the rehabilitated dog in a new home, it killed again so it came back to our teacher where it's been fine ever since and even though she never supervises it with cats and small animals, it hasn't killed again. There are some dogs that can only do well in the right home - it's definitely not the case that it's always bad to try to rehome that sort of dog. primedogs: glad to hear that the assessment was deferred. OH and I were commenting that it really wouldn't be fair to expect a doggy to perform well in the pouring rain! ravenau1: I bought the dog-shaped and dog bone-shaped biscuit cutters from Cooking Coordinates at the Belconnen Markets here in Canberra. I'm sure you could get them online. I sympathise. OH is very committed to the dogs, loves them heaps and looks after them better and more than I do - but even he was a little dubious about doggy parties. He is now mournful at the fact that even though he and Hoover share the same birth date, chances are Hoover will get more prezzies than him :rolleyes: I think the thing is these days, dog ownership has been elevated to a level almost akin to having children and dogs are very much humanised so when they display inappropriate behaviours that are arguably normal dog behaviours, they're frowned on more. For killing things, my old family dog used to kill the occasional bird that was in the backyard. He didn't eat them, I don't think he even intended to kill them but he would pounce and if they didn't get away in time, the force of the pounce would kill the poor bird. I never thought it meant that he was vicious or should be put to sleep. As to humping, I think it's also a relatively normal doggy thing but it is very bad manners to let your dog go around humping other dogs without trying to stop it. Some dogs do not take kindly to other dogs humping them - humping their faces etc. It's an invasion of their space and they don't like it so left unchecked, it can lead to fights etc. Some people say that it's dominance-related, other people say that it isn't - that argument goes around in circle forever. It's also been elevated to human etiquette level i.e. it is bad manners for me to let my dog hump others. Elbie used to hump my OH's arm if he was wearing a dogshirt or he saw certain toys and blankets. He grew out of it. Hoover has a bad habit of occasionally trying to hump Pepper or Ava - fortunately wuffles and Clastic are very understanding and know that OH and I try to get Hoover off of their dog when we see it happening. I think part of the reason a lot of humans get annoyed about the dog-humping is that some people find it funny. I hope Hoover grows out of it, but in the meanwhile, we'll keep pulling him off dogs if we see it happening. I don't agree with the condemnation I see on DOL about the dog humping per se. Every time there's a distressed thread about humping on DOL, you're guaranteed to see a few people saying: "I don't understand why your dog humps, my dog never humped/none of my dogs has ever humped" - I think I read someone here saying that it must be a breed thing because none of her border collies ever humped etc. I don't enjoy being made to feel like a mutant because my dog is humpy sometimes given that I do my best to intervene if I see it happening. Anyway, it's one of those topics that just goes around and around. Kind of like how some people say that a 'friendly dog' is actually just a 'rude dog', desexed or don't desex, raw vs kibble, puppy food vs adult kibble blah blah BLAH. There's never going to be agreement but for my part, I apologise about the humping because I know it's socially unacceptable and I am embarrassed my pup does it and I do try to stop him Yay!!! So exciting! And what a cute little doggy Name yet? As to jigsaws, I'm thinking of trying to do a puzzle today! It's been ages since we've done one. The problem is, I've done something to my shoulders and I woke up incredibly stiff and sore this morning, barely able to move my shoulders so that doesn't bode well for leaning over a table and sorting puzzle pieces Niques: Gorgeous photos! Please don't ask for forgiveness, this is a photos thread after all!!! I love all of his flying shots, this one in particular cracks me up as he flies through the air. He's telling you he wants to do flyball. wuffles: our problem is getting the doggies outside. Once they're out there, they're willing to Do Their Business even if it's bucketing down. :D Some photos of our gang. Hoover is spending his rainy Sunday arvo snoozin' We have been trying out Christmas costumes on Elbie - who wasn't very impressed. Santa Elbie was ok with the cape, albeit dubious Most forlorn Santa dog on the face of the planet ... We also have little antlers but with our doggies ears, we have problems putting them on them

Sorry to hear about the sunburn! I appear to have escaped unscathed. We were lazy and slept in until 11am this morning Both doggies were sleeping in our room, Hoover in his crate and after his morning wee, Elbie was in his dog bed. Perhaps the sound of bucketing rain soothed them? Neither was impressed by the heavy rain though and OH carried each one out to Poo Corner in his arms in the rain As soon as they were done, a wet doggy came hurtling inside again through the dog door. I am relieved that assessment was Thursday night and that Saturday was such a lovely and fine day - doing our Saturday classes and then the BBQ in the rain would have been challenging The BBQ facilities out there are lovely (if you can get one) and we all like the dog park there! Elbie and Hoover were so tired - even late last night they were still snoozing peacefully. Elbie did his usual playing 'around' the other doggies. Hoover likes to run with the gang but on the edges like he's herding sheep or something. Clastic - I am so sorry that Hoover tried humping poor Pepper twice. He's getting desexed early next month. Elbie grew out of his puppy humpiness and I hope Hoover does, too. I thought of this post with a wry face yesterday and was very relieved that there were no Angry DOLers around to post about my badly behaved puppy. Other posts I find scary today are this one (pedigrees are a work of art and crossbreeds are a scribble ... I find it interesting, illuminating and just a little bit scary to see how different people regard their dogs) and this one (rehoming a high drive stafford). The latter was one of those posts where I could just see how the tenor of the conversation was going to go and how it was all going to end even before there were any replies.

We used to have this problem, too. We got some good tips here. I sat in a chair and had Elbie sitting a bit before me and that worked. What our trainer today was doing was just luring Elbie to walk forward and stop and reward only when he stood and not if he dropped or sat! Stand is very difficult for a lot of people - us included!

of today's party

Great photos, wuffles. I nicked a few for my video Primedogs - it was great to meet you and your doggies. I am so sorry to hear about the car breakdown!!! If we'd known I would have gone back to give you a lift. I hope you don't live too far away!! Good luck to you and Deakin tomorrow!!! So of today's party. OH and I didn't have our cameras out for much of the time because we were looking after our monsters, so we had relatively few photos and videos. Nonetheless, hopefully the fun is captured I think everyone had a good time, especially the doggies once they were finally let off lead and permitted to run free!!! Also, does anyone know the email address of Nugget's owner? I wanted to send her the video and some photos of Nugget.

Both? Can't wait to see your photos. Mine weren't very good, alas

My two are absolutely pooped after their day out. I have some videos, not many photos so I'm going to wait till others post their photos to nick some of their photos for the video Thanks so much to wuffles and KA for organising the day.

For anyone checking here - the BBQ area is full of kids so wuffles has picked a spot near the pond instead. See you soon :D

I made some biscuits tonight for the birthday party tomorrow. These biscuits are for the humans not the doggies but they are dog-themed. Uncooked biscuits Cooked biscuits They were made in the new oven. Alas, I burnt my hand a little bit.

Lovely. I liked both but number #1 in particular was lovely and soothing with wonderful detail.

We frequently keep our computers on during the day anyway if downloading etc. The plus to using Vitamin D instead of an ordinary video camera is that: 1. you don't have to worry about battery life 2. you don't have to worry about having massive files of the dog just sitting there doing nothing or empty space It is only triggered to record when something moves. We did a lot of recording at first just to see how long Elbie fussed when we left, what he did, did he bark, was he distressed?

When Elbie was very wee, we used Vitamin D. I did a post here so you can see what kind of footage we got. It just detects movement so you don't end up with oodles and oodles of empty video of nothing. We use the free version so have no sound and can just use one camera, but if you buy the software, you can have sound and also use more than one camera. I believe that there's also the option of having videos/alerts sent to you by phone. when he was very young always makes me laugh because if we had got home just 5 minutes earlier, we could have saved that dog cushion!

Hey, we live in a 37 year old house in the Olden 'Burbs of Canberra where people either have mini poodles, elderly fat labs and pugs or garden variety crossbreeds with no portmanteau name! Unlike the Young Urbanites of Gungahlin, there are absolutely no fancy DD crossbreeds in this neck of the woods. The first time I ever saw a labradoodle or cavoodle was at Dog School and the first Spoodle was last night - must be from one of the Thursday classes. ETA: Found some footage on my camera from last week at dog school. It's just some short footage regarding the rubber frisbee which is always so beloved of Elbie. Video . Seems like no matter what happens, it always ends up with Champ the lab. Also, there's a very tiny but cute smidgen of footage of Ava chomping on Hoover. Elbie and Hoover chomp on each other like this quite regularly.Here is with two dogs.

Heh heh. I hope it helps, too. Seriously, it's so frustrating when people are all: "Just leave the room," and we were like: "We can't leave with a puppy hanging onto our jeans!" and for some dogs, going: 'owww!" is a reward. You'll see that while the spray bottle worked for us, it doesn't work for other people because their dog thinks it's a game. It's finding out what works best for your dog. A spray bottle ended up being the best aversive for our dog. Sometimes he'd behave just if we waved the bottle around, but he's not scared of it because at training he'll drink from a spray/water bottle that we're holding when it's hot. It took a while hanging out on DOL before I was able to get a suitable sense of perspective about problems. There's a broad spectrum of people, dogs, attitudes and how to handle various problems. There are people who will recommend you see a behaviourist (or worse, a behaviouralist) at the drop of a hat and so it's hard to get a sense of what is a serious problem and what is a relatively normal dog phase of development. There are some problems that shouldn't be ignored and they shouldn't be diagnosed over the Internet because they don't go away and they just get worse, some problems aren't really problems - they're fairly normal stages. If you aren't sure which category your 'problem' falls into, then you probably should seek someone more experienced to help you out. For us, as with many people, the nipping and biting went away as suddenly as it came. I was very grateful for the people who let me know that I shouldn't be worrying overly and that it was pretty normal puppy behaviour. Elbie doesn't nip and bite anymore - he would never touch our clothing or our skin - even if I'm wearing a big floppy skirt etc. He's very gentle when taking treats. He doesn't have a nipping/biting inclination anymore. I get the impression that a lot of GSDs are a quite mouthy as pups and this can be normal, but you do have to keep an eye on it and make sure it's managed so that it doesn't become an entrenched behaviour. We actually ended up seeing a trainer/behaviourist for Elbie for other stuff and I can vouch for how helpful it can be so if you know someone good and helpful in your area, it's actually great to have someone who knows your dog very well, who has known your dog since it was a pup. With our behaviourist, because she knows Elbie so well, I can call her up and chat to her over the phone and her advice is from a position of knowing Elbie since he was 5 months. Good luck! It's so frustrating when they're still small and cute but you can't cuddle them because they're a wriggling mass of sharp teeth ;)

Yes, while the plethora of dogs provided Elbie with High Distraction, I was certainly very entertained. Saw two cute little black pugs, my first Rhodesian Ridgebacks, my first Toller ... a couple of labradoodles and what I think might have been my first Spoodle because it looked a lot like photos of some doggies I've seen here on DOL. Max#1: The heeling was all on-leash. Elbie was just atrocious at it. We did it last so by the time we got there, that area of the field was well and truly trampled on, wee'd on, poo'd on by goodness knows how many dogs. Elbie was completely fascinated by the smells and spent the whole time sniffing. He drooped and stood beautifully on command and he was actually loose-lead walking beautifully - it was just unfortunate that it was supposed to be heeling. Interestingly, on the mat was the first thing that they teach in beginners. When OH and I first went to the club to observe a lesson, we noticed the mats so we went home and taught Elbie to go to his mat before he started class. We had a few mistakes because we used a blanket that got tangled on a smooth floor. It was one of the earlier things we taught Hoover, too. I get the sense that it's supposed to be a 'chill-out' space for dog during class. For us, we find it handy because it's our signal to Elbie that class has begun. He can mess around and sniff and talk to other dogs but when we say 'go to your mat', he knows he has to be at attention - which was why we were surprised that the 'go to your mat' component for assessment was 2 minutes and we weren't supposed to be looking at him. We don't need to give additional commands to Elbie to keep him on his mat but we do rely on eye-contact. I'm looking forward to the BBQ tomorrow but Elbie's going to be the most excitable/hyperactive dog of the bunch. We're bringing one of our soft crates so that he can 'time out' and chill-out hopefully and not distract everyone else's very placid and well-behaved doggies. He'll be fine in the off-lead play section but during the BBQ when the non-doggies are eating, he might be overly curiously so he shall be crated rather than tethered. Also, I hope Saxon is still sporting his 'eighties head banger hairdo' tomorrow. It is awesome!

The regret is a little too late, alas. I am not meaning to be provocative, but as I pondered this topic, I can't help thinking that out of all of the DDs, the labradoodle probably has the greatest chance of one day being recognised as a 'breed' by the public even if it never becomes an official ANKC breed. I see them everywhere and not just in the homes of fad pet owners - an instructor at my obedience club has one, I see them trialling, I see them doing obedience and agility with committed owners. For me they are more recognisable in appearance than many of the other DDs - it's usually quite easy to spot a labradoodle although I always ask 'poodle' first just to be polite. They also grow up to be more consistent in appearance than many of the other DDs - many jugs and beagaliers look like strange Greek mythical beasts when they grow up but I've seen a lot of adult labradoodles that look quite similar. Personally, I love the face of a labradoodle - it's pretty cute. I'm not endorsing them, advocating that people buy them, I have my own breed preferences and thoughts about dogs, but from an outsider's point of view, I think the labradoodlers are probably closest to ever 'making it'. As with breeders of all 'breeds' of dogs, the challenge is going to be finding the breeders with integrity among the many somewhat unsavoury breeders. It would be kind of interesting if this 'breed' actually ended up being the next 'new' mainstream-ish breed. I know the Tenterfield Terrier was recognised in 2002 but it's not hugely popular/mainstream yet. I was reading this about the Doberman before: Alas, I was too young to be around when the Doberman came into existence in 1890 Same goes for the Kelpie which has Collie blood, Other Dog Blood and perhaps even Dingo blood in its origins. I do find it interesting to see the different 'combos' that resulted in the dogs we know and love today.

Thanks CleoJ! We'll be working hard with him and Hoover during the 'hiatus'. lilli_star: Hoover is fine around fans but Elbie is very dubious. The ceiling fan makes him give wary, quick upward glances and it's the reason he doesn't like sleeping in our bedroom!

Thanks. There were a LOT of lunging, barking, very excited dogs tonight and Elbie was very stimulated for a bit but he sort of settled down eventually. The fact that he did well at the controlled greeting is already a huge improvement for him and I am hoping that with a bit of time and extra training, he'll do even better next time.

Not surprisingly Elbie flunked out at silver. It was an automatic fail when he broke his group drop-stay which was the third 'event' that he attempted. After that, it was all over but we took him through the whole assessment anyway. Basically, tonight it was both Thursday and Sunday classes going through - double the dogs, more than double the people. There was no way our little dog was going to pass silver to begin with, but with all of those distractions ... not a chance! ;) He went well in most of the 'events' but as usual failed his stand for pats and was absolutely abysmal at heeling. The best the assessor could say was that we had a very 'happy dog'. I am not sure he will pass next time either but I am very hopeful that I'll be able to get his heeling up to scratch. The other things he failed were because of his own 'personality' but the heeling is very much our fault because we have never really cared for it so have never really practised it with him very diligently. Anyway it was a nice evening. We saw Clastic, Mr Clastic and Pepper, Kuma, KumaAkita and Mr KA, Saxon and Saxonpup and of course wuffles, Ava and the mysterious Satch. ;) CleoJ was there as an assessor - thankfully Elbie passed her assessment task! We'll see the whole gang again on Saturday - but without the strain of assessment. Rogue's owner said that Rogue did 'woefully', also failed so the classmates will be reunited next term. ETA: I have to say that sometimes the assessment is a little 'different' to what we do in class so we're not quite prepared. For instance, the 'go to your mat' exercise required the dog to stay on the mat for 2 minutes, but what was different from class was that you weren't supposed to maintain eye contact. You were supposed to look away. One guy stared at his dog the whole time and he passed by the instructor said that the dog was supposed to be 'relaxing' on the mat while the owner looked away. For Elbie, OH looked away and Elbie sat there. Then Elbie was a bit uncertain what he was supposed to do so got up and took a step forward. As soon as he got up, OH sent Elbie back to the mat so he actually still passed the exercise because Elbie went back to his mat immediately but it was just a little unexpected. Also, one very funny exercise was the loose-leash walking 'obstacle course'. Elbie went fine in that and ignored all the distractions (including a bowl of treats!) but today one of the 'distractions' was a guy pushing an empty stroller! It was the funniest distraction ever and also looked a bit creepy. We were joking that we weren't sure it was a good thing to desensitise your dogs to potential dodgy guys pushing empty strollers.

Yoicks!!! It's page 38 for me and I thought that that was impressive.

Assessment tonight also comes with a BBQ/sausage sizzle. What torture, agony and temptation for the poor doggies!!! I'll bring my camera and see if I can get some photos of the event. Maybe I can tuck poor Hoover into my backpack - Richard Gere did it in the Hachi movie!!

I had a similar problem with my puppy when he was a lot younger. The little monster seemed to be constantly in "jeans attack" mode and was driving us bonkers. I received a lot of helpful comments here. Lots of things that work for other people don't always work for one's own puppy, alas. Hope you can find something that helps!