koalathebear

Thanks! He IS very smart and extremely eager to please. He is so desperate to offer up all sorts of behaviours and the issue is usually me finding a way to let him know exactly what I want. Once he knows, he's extremely happy to do it. As usual, the weak point is trainer-side

Hi Naomi I feel your pain. As aussielover has pointed out, it's pretty normal behaviour. One of the threads I'm contacted most about is this thread in which I described our frustration when an 11 week old Elbie was constantly attacking our ankles/jeans. He was such a cute little pup but we'd be in the yard, we'd move and you'd almost see a light bulb go off above his head as he decided to go into biting little monster mode It felt like it would never end (it actually only lasted a few weeks though it felt like forever). Some people said we should seek a behaviourist but it actually was very normal behaviour given his breed mix and he grew out of it with guidance. Different things work for different people - Elbie was very stimulated by movement, bright red towels ... For a while we couldn't even shake out a garbage bag without him going bonkers. These days we can wave a towel or a bag around his head and he wouldn't bat an eyelash Just have patience, try to find out the method that works for you out of the very long list of possible options and stick to that one. Thankfully Hoover wasn't mouthy at all although when we got him we were psychologically prepared for another bitey pup. As to time-outs, we've tried various things. We've put them out into the yard, tethered them somewhere for a few minutes - in the end what works for us is to put them in the bathroom for a few minutes. To be honest, we also put them in their crates sometimes - not so much for punishment, but just to give them time to settle and quieten down. For our two it doesn't seem to have impaired their love of their crates but I wouldn't recommend it for Archie given everything is still so new for him. Good luck

Thanks for the tips. We've been working on the pointing last night and tonight. In the beginning, Elbie kept trying to shake hands or bow. Then he thought that he was supposed to sit and wave. Then he kept walking forward towards me. He has made a lot of progress although he still can only do it if I'm close enough to point to his leg i.e. he doesn't do it on just voice cue alone. of the early attempts and then a loose-ish point. I guess we can work our way towards the higher, tighter point ...

Oh they are so cute - look how pensive they look!

Haha – those photos were a fluke! He doesn't point that often! Do you have some spare quail you can lend me? We've been trying to wave the Frisbee around to get him to get into his point stance but all we get is a Super Alert Stand

Hoover has developed a bad but funny habit of standing next to the little bin in the toilet and staring at it covetously. You can see that he is dying to dunk his nose in and fish out a toilet roll ... Was he born with this addiction or was it, as betsy points out, a result of subliminal messages from Kleenex??? Does he think he is a labrador????

Not brave. Stooopid. Someone needs to stop me And yeah, I know the meanies are probably reading this. Tonight, I wish to write about Canine Cat Nip, being this: Recently I wrote that a sin-binned Hoover was found happily playing with a toilet roll in the bathroom, blissfully unaware that he was being Punished and Shunned. Yesterday, Hoover disappeared ... OH went looking for him in Hoover's favourite sunny patch of the house. Not there. Then he looked in Hoover's crate and found traces of shredded toilet roll - the little monster had clearly gone on a reconnaissance mission, stolen a toilet roll, taken it back to his lair, chewed it up and then run away

Thanks all. Looks like I have to wear my clicker around my neck more often!! He points so nicely when he wants to!!

Normally no - Elbie does it when he's excited and waiting for the ball. When I've praised him madly he looks at me like I am bonkers - has no idea why I am praising him. Hoover, too

Kobi's Daisy: Kobi is beautiful! I've never met a Vizsla before - just a Kelpie x Vizsla! How embarrassing. I need to post less - you have no idea how many people say my Elbie posts come up on google - I must have spammed the internet. Nonetheless, I'm really happy the biting/mouthing thread was helpful for you - not all pups are mouthy but when they are ... Apologies for the delay in welcoming you. I have been embroiled in DOL shenanigans which are beyond stupid. I am stupid for getting embroiled - as if one can ever counter toxicity?

Elbie and Hoover both point from time to time. I'd love to be able to teach them to point on cue. They don't do it frequently enough for them to understand why I'm praising them. Sometimes they point when waiting for a toy/ball to be thrown but not always. Does anyone have any tips on how to teach them to point on cue?

Testing testing 1 2 3

Hi greytmate, thank you for your feedback and letting me know that the purpose of my post was lost. My point relating to the topic was as follows: The original thread with its various viewpoints and opinions on quality of life/compassion was interesting. To me it seemed a great shame that it got bogged down in misunderstanding.

greymate: to be fair though, I still think that most people here would realise that 'many' does not imply 'most' and that a breeder with as much integrity as The Ark would not be seeking to cast aspersions on others. It is definitely the case that there are breeders out there who would put a dog to sleep for other than health-related reasons. For instance in this thread a very well-regarded breeder responded to the query: "Do healthy dogs really get put down because of colour? Why can't they just be pet homed? That's so sad... unless there are serious health issues of course." The answer was: "I wouldn't think twice to make sure a black and tan, liver, blue or fawn doesn't make it past the first few hours. I'd be taking a serious look at how they've come about and making sure I take measure to prevent them popping up again." There have been other instances as well (don't have the time to chase them down) and as a non-breeder I wouldn't seek to judge those breeders because I know there are a variety of reasons including not wanting to popularise non-standard colours, limited breeder resources when suitable pet homes can't be found etc. All I'm trying to say is that if garden variety readers like me don't take The Ark's comment as a slur on other breeders but just an observation - it really isn't necessary to get so upset/offended by it. That being said, I also realise that if people are offended then they are offended and there's nothing that can be done to defuse that. As an 'outsider', from what I can see - everyone in this thread clearly loves and cares about dogs a lot and takes the issue of quality of life very seriously and I would hope that that would be enough to overcome forum/internet misunderstandings ...

Breeders like The Ark are wonderful, compassionate and giving and a real credit to the 'profession'. I just think it's a little unfortunate that people are so quick to take offence when she's not here to clarify her post. Given the person she is, I think it highly unlikely that she intended to offend anyone or to incur the ire that is being displayed here. I don't want to make the situation worse - I am sorry if you thought it was a taunt. I just hate to see such a nice person being wronged.

The Ark - since everyone else is offended, I'm grievously offended, too. There can be no reparation or restitution for this affront. It's to be pistols at dawn, name your seconds. I'll bet you killed Elvis, too. :p

True. I have Kelpies/Kelpie-ish dogs so leglessness would not play out well for them I guess I was just trying to ascertain the reason for the above posters' feelings of affront. Perhaps they were under the misapprehension that 'many' was being used as the noun for 'majority'. For clarification 'many' only means 'the majority' when you say: "the many" e.g. music for the many As used above, many just means "a large number of people". Nowhere near a majority or all and hardly offensive really unless you're determined to be snotty in which case, go nuts ...

I'm sorry, I find that statement offensive, Maybe those 'many breeders' might have put her down from an ethical, humane point of view, based on her expected quality of life, NOT because she wasn't potential ribbon winning or pumping out puppies as their motive. fifi edited for spelling and to bold the text because I'm peed off. Many not all. Unless you're certain you've been included within the many classification, it seems strange that you'd choose to be offended. Asking for a withdrawal seems even stranger ...

Experiences seem to vary a LOT from person to person. I have had an absolutely wonderful experience and don't regret getting Hoover at all but you'll find that there will be a lot of people who haven't been so fortunate. I don't think that there's any universalising possible – you just have to look at your own circumstances and select the second pup on the basis of your current situation. Just by way of example: we've had a wonderful experience getting two pups who are five months apart but you'll see in this post that some people have had a less than ideal experience with two pups. You will see from this post that many people recommend against: (a) getting two males; (b) getting a pup at 3 months (might have missed critical socialisation periods). A lot of what swayed us despite views to the contrary was the breed. A well-bred working line Kelpie will generally be ok with another male. A well-bred working line Kelpie can still have a great temperament even if it's not been widely socialised from a very early age. We spoke with Kelpie-people and also with the breeder and felt pretty comfortable that Hoover would be a good fit – that's why we went with a purebred through a WKC-registered breeder rather than getting a rescue dog. That's why Hoover is totally fine despite only ever having met his litter mates and his breeder's family by the age of 3 months and never having travelled in a car/been off the farm since then. In terms of your specific questions – Elbie did not lose focus when we got Hoover. I think he wasn't entirely happy at having an interloper at first but he's fine now and seems to love having Hoover around. Elbie is very people-focused so he definitely has bonded with us more. Hoover adores Elbie and will follow him around and be fascinated by him. He is very much a pesky and adoring younger brother so we made sure we did a lot of work at the start so that he comes when called. They have separate time i.e. we will take one and not the other out on walks/car trips. Sometimes one is in the house and the other is in the yard. We train them separately and also together because we know that some siblings have difficulty concentrating if the other sibling is nearby so we've worked hard at having them trained right near each other so that they don't consider it distracting. For me the most difficult things about having two dogs was: High value items like bones – we have to tether them a distance apart to feed them bones/lamb flaps because we want to avoid any conflict/disagreement Watching them sort out hierarchy and dynamics – I felt quite guilty for taking away Elbie's 'spoiled only dog' position, but honestly it's fine now – they adore each other and have so much fun Walking. They're walked separately because I want them both walking nicely on a loose leash before I try to walk them together. Hope that helps

Continuing on Diva's point, Elbie seems to definitely know when a minute is up when doing a sit stay/drop stay. It's for this reason that our club tell us not to release the dog after exactly on one minute but give it a bit of tiem after that.

Love this little fellow over at the Musswellbrook Animal Shelter thread. Sooo cute. "Me so cute" "Cute and pensive" "I have soulful eyes" "How can you resist me?"

My dog was 8 months old when we got a 3 month old puppy. It has only improved him He has learned to play more - he used to be quite reserved with other dogs, but now he will run around with them and even initiate play, although he'll never be the life of the party. He's a bit more chilled - when he was an Only Pup, he would shadow us a lot more but after we got Hoover, there will be days he's quite happy to lie on the grass and chill out on his own. Hoover's a bit of a digger sometimes but it doesn't seem to have made Elbie regress and even Hoover's digging is tapering off. Having the first dog certainly made it easier to toilet-train and teach basic house manners. Training is great because they watch and learn from the other and you can use competitiveness to motivate the other. Hoover finally learned how to 'stand' on cue because Elbie does it. Sometimes one is crated and watching while the other one is being trained. It's funny when they're not crated though because then you'll end up with two dogs heeling on your left hand side. I haven't noticed any bad signs from having a second dog. I worried that having two energetic pups would mean that they would play themselves into exhaustion but so far no signs of that. They have short bursts of very intensive play where they chase each other madly around the yard - but then they take a break and laze around for ages, then play begins again. It's handy because they do a lot of self-exercising that way but they also love to go out still. Also, I think getting the second pup at 3 months made life much easier than 8 weeks ... ETA: One thing I remember that I did find stressful at the time was the hierarchy. Despite being the younger and smaller puppy, Hoover appeared a lot more assertive and bossy than Elbie. For a while it looked as though he was going to put himself ahead of Elbie and we felt bad for Elbie being pushed down the lines like that. To be honest, it all seems to have sorted itself out and they have a strange understanding - Hoover rushes through doors ahead of Elbie but Elbie initiates play and Hoover defers to and looks to see what Elbie's doing. Hoover's also usually the one who goes up and snuggles with Elbie in the dog bed. They share toys and seem to have figured out their own power dynamics.

I finished doing Hoover's family tree based on the Working Kelpie Council database. It's a bit of a mess I felt foolish posting it here so it's on facebook.

I think it's still very illustrative though. People wrongly claim that this forum does not permit discussion of any breeds except ANKC registered dogs but you'll see that out of the 490+ breeds on that page that are registered with the registries listed, there are many dogs registered with other registries that the ANKC does not register. I don't think that means we're not allowed to talk about White Shepherd Dogs, Koolies, Thai Ridgebacks, Spanish Water Dogs and the New Guinea Singing Dog ... Or working line Kelpies registered with WKC. It would be a very curtailed and restrictive forum if that were the case. I think that main thing is that we're not supposed to be extolling the virtues of DDs, which no one here is doing. The initial query has now turned into a discussion about possible future breeds and I don't see why that's against the spirit of the forum.

I think only after a lengthy period of time passes will we find out which are the new breeds that are here to stay and which are the fly by night fads. Out of interest, what are the 'recent' breeds that have been recognised only in the last few decades as a 'real' breed?