koalathebear

Stand is fine but we are now having mild issues with Elbie's stand for exam. First of all, because of all the rear-end awareness training we were doing before, when I was returning to his side by walking behind him and then back to his right - he was turning his body around i.e. keeping front paws on the spot and rotating his butt around. Fortunately I have managed to teach him to stay put BUT now he has a habit of craning his head around to follow my progress and watch me as I return to his side i.e. he doesn't have that stoic "I am a table" staring straight ahead look that he's supposed to ... He doesn't shift from his stand with his feet but his head is definitely all over the shop. Trying to hold food before his nose to keep him looking forward just makes him walk forward. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

Haha - not at all. The only reason we needed an offswitch for our doggies is that we both cherish our computer time and 'human time' so the dogs have to learn to sit quietly for that I doubt Max is anywhere near being a monster

The video footage would be worth it, though!

I still expect to see you skiing downhill with Kuma flung over your shoulders like that Extraordinary Lab :D

How cute and talented is with his bag of tricks???

aussielover: if Echo's energy is anything like Kelpie energy - running him more won't tire him out, just make him more fit and more high-energy ... It seems more important to work on focus and calming exercises ...

I know what you mean. We seriously thought we were totally going to be cool because we had gone through Elbie's puppy hood but Elbie was so well-behaved, house-trained and trained that it was weird ending up with a 'blank' new puppy that didn't even know how to wait for his food. When we got Hoover - he was guzzling for his food like his name and it was almost horrifying because Elbie would never do that anymore If you're willing to skip the super cute baby wombat, roly poly 8 week puppy stage - do what we did and get the 3 month pup. Still cute but heaps less work. Hoover whined for two nights tops and was house-trained really fast compared to Elbie (got at just under 8 weeks). He was also larger so we didn't worry that Elbie might accidentally injure a tiny puppy. kyliegirl: I sympathise with you, I really do. Hoover is the most chilled dog in the world. If you want to rev him up, he's revvable, if you want him to lie down and be quiet, he'll do that. He gets excited at obedience school but settles down. At home, he'll sleep and be dead to the world. By contrast - Elbie seems like he's never really asleep. He's almost on constant alert - one ear cocked, eyes partially open - body poised to leap out of the dog bed I am very lucky, however, that at home, Elbie is a total couch potato inside. I can send him to his dog bed or crate and he'll stay there, very, very chilled and relaxed. If we want to sleep in until 11am, both dogs sleep in, too. Absolutely no hyperactivity at home unless Strangers come to visit. By contrast, outside the home he can be a maniac. He's calm on his walks but before obedience and agility he's lunging, barking, whining, spinning and just being a complete crazy dork. People who do not know him, always tell us to run him around to try to tire him out/calm him down. This does not work with Elbie. Other people have suggested that we take him on runs or put him on a treadmill to try to take the edge off of his energy. Those who know Kelpies have warned us against this. A Kelpie can run 80km a day - they'll run until they drop dead - it's not possible to tire one out It would be fine if OH and I were the slightest bit athletic, but we are anything but ... we were warned that if we made the dogs too fit, then we'd end up with very high energy, highly fit dogs that would go absolutely nuts if they didn't get the exercise they were used to. This wasn't going to be sustainable for us given that neither of us are that sort of person ... Our dogs were going to have to fit in with our lifestyle. So as it is, our dogs can go for a week or more without a walk and be totally fine - no destructive behaviours, no crazy hyperactivity at home. Part of the reason is that they self-exercise - they chase each other around the yard several times a day like absolute crazies and I'm sure they burn off heaps of energy that way. Some things I've found work with my two in terms of 'tiring' them out: We praise them and reward them when they're sitting around chilling. In the early days, we sent them to their beds constantly and praised them when they stayed there For Elbie, crating was very helpful in calming him down - when he realised he couldn't get out, he'd just rest/sleep. In time, even with the door open he'd stay there and just chill out We make them work for every single bit of food - even if it's just a sit or a stay or a spin We take them on short walks (20 minutes to half an hour) but do lots of focus-work on those short walks I've been taking them for little training sessions on the street and in the front yard - heeling, and tying the leash to my belt to practise Elbie's loose-leash walking (which can be horrific if he is not focused) Innocuous things become toys of enrichment - boxes with holes cut out, juice bottles with food inside etc We found toys that tire them out - Hoover still gets tired out by the Kong Wobbler. Elbie isn't tired out by any toys any more but in the early days, a new toy used to be able to make him tired. Obedience class used to tire out Elbie - not any more but it certainly did when he was younger. This lazy slug suggests you tone down the exercise and find games within the yard and house that will keep Echo's mind occupied, otherwise he's just going to get even more fit and more frustrated and demand more of your time and energy than you have to give. Tonight at agility, Elbie was focused much earlier on which made my life easier. I've found with my high energy dog that it's not about tiring him out, it's finding some kind of trigger/thing that will make him focus on me. Once I can do that - he's an angel. Sometimes I do things like take two or three steps towards him and then back up two or three steps to make him follow my movements. Sometimes I run and then slow down. Anything that makes him pay attention to what I am doing and not other distractions. I have also been using a behavioural interrupter word (K9Pro method) which snaps Elbie's attention away from other things and onto me. Sometimes it's as simple as waving a piece of food around and making the dog chase it. Once you have your dog's attention, you'll know you've got it and then everything is easy from then on - you just have to search for what that is. Good luck - don't lose heart. If I didn't have Hoover, I'd be wringing my paws thinking that I was a terrible, terrible dog owner who doesn't know how to calm my dog down but I really do think that owning Elbie has taught me a LOT of things I would not have learned otherwise if I'd had an 'easy' dog like Hoover for my first dog

Hoover, falling asleep while resting his head on top of Elbie's back

dandybrush: willow's 'leave it' is so cute. We particularly liked the nose-nudge after the second leave it - so funny. kyliegirl: Echo is clearly in training for the Canine Olympics! I'm sure he'll bring home gold. Here are my two. Elbie chilling in his dog bed - with blanket of course Hoover - falling asleep while resting his head on Elbie's back while they are both standing. I kid you not. Hoover and Elbie this morning waiting for their lazy humans to get out of bed. Hoover's eyes kept drooping shut, he's such a snoozy dog.

Ooops ;) We've only had one lesson so far, so there's still a lot to learn - obviously. The figure 8 is soooo confusing - and like you I am not a fan of dancing

OK. Good luck.

Not preaching Souff - just observing. If I was preaching, I'd be telling people what I think they should be doing. I was merely remarking that you have your way of dealing with a horrible situation and others have a different way of addressing the same situation. People have to act in accordance with their own convictions and I don't think any of us are in a position to posit without doubt that one approach is right and the other is wrong. I think we're all in agreement that that it's a very heart-breaking problem ...

dandybrush - they are sooooooooo cute. If they were the same colouring, they'd look like Me and Mini Me ...

Pup was sold on Friday night, apparently. Crossing fingers, toes and eyes that he has gone to a good home ...

By the way - I wasn't criticising the discussion I was just trying to make it a bit broader because some of the examples were a bit specific and it would be interesting to think about it over sets of general behaviours like escapism, language learning etc. What you say is very interesting because it makes me wonder if a dog is more intelligent if it comes 'pre-loaded with certain software' that give it an inherent advantage in terms of ability, or is it more intelligent if it is able to learn those skills and abilities after birth.

The thing is that we're all still talking about our own dogs and whether our own dogs are intelligent or not but that is quite specific to individual dogs rather than across the breed. What about on a more generalised basis discussing certain behaviours/traits - putting aside whether our own dogs are smart or not For instance, 'Betsy' the German Border Collie could understand 200 words - do we think that the ability to recognise many words equals intelligence? One of the characteristics of a Kelpie is that it can take instructions from a great distance (is that intelligence or just a good sensory system?) and that it displays independent thinking i.e. it will listen to its handler but it will override those instructions if it thinks it knows better - is that intelligence or naughtiness and recalcitrance? Is a sense of independence and autonomy intelligence or just instinct? I was watching "Extraordinary Dogs" that spoke about how the guardian instinct in the Maremma Sheepdog wasn't trained by humans but passed from mother to pup - when danger approached, the Maremma Sheepdogs would automatically form themselves into a guarding pattern - two at the gate, the rest would herd the flock to the back into safety and the sheepdogs would always place themselves between the flock and impending harm. Is that intelligence or pure instinct passed down over generations? What about escape artist dogs - the ones that manage to get out of any yard no matter what the fencing or barriers that are put in place - is that dog intelligent because it's a problem solver or is it the dog that can be taught to stay in the yard that is more intelligent? Same thing with destructive snoopy dogs - are the dogs that destroy and snoop more intelligent because they're curious and energetic or are the dogs that can be taught to 'leave things alone' more intelligent? What about dogs that can learn by imitation - is that intelligence? Or the ability to generalise - is that intelligence? I have no answers, I'm just curious.

We started doing this last Wednesday and it was so confusing that we had to put the dogs aside and try to do it on our own, walking in with food in both hands and then kind of turning around and continuing in a figure 8. I am still confused so looking forward to tomorrow night when I can figure out how to do it. I am the most uncoordinated person in the world so need to figure it out before I confuse the poor dog.

It's not really a 'market' if the dogs are seen as worthless to the 'breeder' and are being given away. The situation above might happen when the 'breeder' is charging money and there is a financial motivater. If, however, it's an oops litter because the 'breeder' couldn't be bothered desexing or taking precautions, then while I understand the idealistic rationale behind the thinking expressed above, the sudden jolt of enlightenment will never happen. If someone is really so incredibly irresponsible that they do not care about the consequences of their actions, the fate and well-being of the lives that they have brought into the world, then they're not going to suddenly wake up to the error of their ways just because they can't get rid of their dogs. If they can't give away the dogs, then they'll dispose of them some other way - and it's not necessarily going to be humane. I doubt that they'd have much compunction about dumping them by the side of the road where there are no cameras or at the pound. If someone really doesn't want a dog and doesn't have the inconvenience of a conscience, then it's it's pretty easy to get rid of a dog. For many people, rather than throwing up their hands in despair and saying they'll do nothing because there are thousands of them, the problem is too big and they can't possibly make any difference, they probably try to follow the starfish principle and say that they can at least make a difference for one dog or several dogs. Some people help with rescue, some people try to give a home to a dog that would otherwise end up dead, in a bad home, in the pound or straining rescue's already limited resources ...

To save yourself a world of pain, you might want to tweak with that observation I don't own a Labrador - I have a Kelpie x Border Collie and a Kelpie - but Labradors are definitely intelligent and capable of thinking for themselves. It's what makes them such good assistance dogs. A guide dog has to know when to ignore commands from its handlers, for instance, the handler wants to cross the road and the guide dog will ignore the command if there is potential danger. Guide dogs need to learn how to navigate their handlers through spaces that are wide enough for both dog and handler, this takes a bit of independent thought, not just mindless rote-learning.

Kavik: Kelpies are always missing from those lists! It's funny how they are so incredibly ubiquitous here in Australia yet are a supernatural water horse in many other places I have so many North Americans asking me questions about Kelpies because they've never heard of them. I always find these lists interesting because they prompt people to always say that it's measuring trainability not intelligence and that it's possible to argue that the less trainable breeds are actually smarter than the more trainable breeds etc. At the end of the discussion, it always looks like all dog breeds are smart. As it cannot possibly be the case that all dog breeds are smart, are there any breeds that are both not-smart and also not very trainable? I know that there will be always be exceptions, just talking about general rules like Border Collies and Kelpies are generally very trainable, another breed is very independent and less easy to train etc.

all4addy: congratulations on your new puppy. If you need help or have questions, you should also pop by the puppy forum - it's mostly friendly in there, with lots of people willing to help out Sounds like you'd be safe going with puppy food for a medium-sized dog until your pup gets larger and you have a better idea what size she's going to be. We didn't know what Elbie had been fed before we got him either, so he started out on Pedigree (oops) and then Hills Science Diet for Puppy. He did really well on that but most DOLers don't like that so you could try Royal Canin puppy. Our dog Elbie was also a free to a good home dog. He was being given away because the owner of the dog couldn't afford to keep feeding all the dogs. Our second dog was from a registered WKC-breeder but we don't regret getting Elbie - we think that we've given him a good and loving home, much better than he was probably headed for given that he was being given away at just under 8 weeks and had ringworm and worms. Also, if your dog ends up having ringworm, don't worry too much, it's very contagious but very, very treatable and we were able to get rid of the problem in just a few weeks and there hasn't been a recurrence since - Elbie has a very healthy coat these days ;) He has made it to silver level in obedience (maybe he'll even make it to gold this year) and he has just started agility so even doggies from the wrong side of the tracks can go ok ;) Look forward to seeing some photos!

;) KA - have you seen this???? Gorgeous photos of my favourite akita. He is so beautiful, especially with that baleful expression dandybrush: we have only one wobbler. It wouldn't be suitable to have the two of them playing with their wobblers at once - they'd swap and argue. We just use the wobbler if we're taking one out and leaving the other behind e.g. when we left Elbie alone during assessment night and Hoover gets left with the wobbler when we're at agility with Elbie.

I understand that breeders of working Kelpies need to cull - it just seems like it's not always done very humanely. Drowning would probably only be suitable for very young pups - my understanding was that a well-placed bullet would be the most humane and painless way to terminate the life of a 3 month old puppy if you're not going to take it to the vet. Some of the dogs would make lovely pets though, and as long as they were desexed I wouldn't see a problem if they were permitted to go into households. Even Tony Parsons wasn't totally against this idea of placing his Karrawarra working line Kelpies in pet homes if they weren't suitable for work. Also, to the point about rescuing working dogs, while they can be difficult to place in ordinary homes, it should still be on a case by case basis ... As long as they're well-occupied and don't have temperament issues, there's no reason why such a dog can't be happy in the suburbs.

Each photo is more precious than the last. I LOVE the last one of Roo and all her new loot Our two love the Wobbler a lot, so I'm glad Roo does, too. Hoover's figured out how to unscrew it!

Persephone is right ... It's very sad but unfortunately working dogs are culled very, very regularly. If you read the Tony Parsons book, he even specifically praises one of the breeders for regular culling of dogs that are unsuitable for work. I'd like to think that if it happens it only takes place when the litters are very young for health reasons but if you take a look at the webpage for Riana (a well-known working Kelpie Stud), you'll see this line: A dog has to be a certain age before you know whether or not it can "head cleanly and properly" so presumably they are talking about young pups that are at least several months old. If they're not keeping or distributing culls, they must be terminating them. Some breeders will sell dogs that are unsuitable for work (but are otherwise healthy) as pets but it would seem that this is a practice that isn't really approved of and termination would be far more common. It seems a shame that that so many otherwise beautiful, healthy and lovable dogs die this way but this is the selection process for many working dogs ... I would hope that they use humane and relatively painless methods to terminate the dogs but no one really monitors these things ...