koalathebear

This thread has been very interesting. As some people have pointed out, everyone has their own preferences for dog sports/activities and it doesn't make one better than the other. It all comes down to what is enjoyable for you and your dog(s). For me personally, I am one of those odd people who actually enjoys going to obedience class but has little intention of trialling and also does not find heeling particularly interesting... My teachers have been great, I've enjoyed the classes - the dogs seem to enjoy them, too. Part of the reason why I think a lot of people can be a bit ho hum about obedience is that despite the fact that a lot of people will try to tell you that it's not all about heeling and that there's Other Stuff, too - usually the people who like obedience also enjoy heeling and will emphasise the heeling side quite a bit - how much skill it takes, how great it is, how precise it is, how it strengthens the bond between owner and human etc etc. Therefore, for anyone who isn't transported into raptures of ecstasy over heeling - it can be easy to fall into the trap of thinking: 'heeling is boring. Oh noes - because I don't like heeling, I guess I don't like obedience." The things I like about obedience (even heeling) include the fact that done properly, it's interesting for the dog. I like the socialisation aspect. I like my dogs being able to deliver a behaviour consistently and around distractions. I like being among dog-friendly people. I like seeing my dog improve in areas with which we both struggled at the beginning. That's just me though. I was talking to someone at agility last night and he said for him agility was much fun for him and his dog. He found obedience boring, pointless and frustrating and said that with agility, he at least didn't swear at his dog. He also saw little point in making your dog stay for x seconds etc. For the average person it's hard to understand why you need to walk around your dog to return to him after a stay, why your dog has to stand not sit for exam (i.e. isn't it good that he's sitting rather than jumping around?). For someone who intends to trial, he/she sees it as a sport with rules and the rules add layers of complexity and interest in the same way that rules and degrees of difficulty make a game interesting. For the average person, it can all seem a bit bizarre and pointless. I am happy with the content of our obedience classes. Even if I don't intend to trial, it's good for the dogs to have to do tricky things. We also attended different classes on Saturday where the dogs learned more practical things like manners when entering/exiting a car, focus work etc. Elbie our older dog is doing agility and he loves it in a way he doesn't love obedience. It's more fun and interesting for him. One could argue that perhaps I should have made more of an effort to 'make' obedience fun for him but it's not that he doesn't enjoy obedience, he just doesn't love it the way he loves agility and I didn't actually have to do anything - agility was just automatically fun for for him. Lots of activity, apparatus, movement - lots of very self-rewarding things to stimulate and interest a dog like him. With Hoover, our other dog, he has just passed silver obedience and I was toying with the idea of trying trialling with him since we're not sure he'll be suitable for agility - he's not quite as drivey as Elbie. OH is of the view that Hoover just behaves at obedience to please us because he is very obedient and that he doesn't 'love it' or particularly 'enjoy' obedience even though he enjoys hanging out with us and other dogs. I wish we had other alternatives like tracking here because Hoover has a very sensitive nose and I'm sure he would love that sport. If people don't enjoy obedience, I don’t think they should feel bad about it. It's almost impossible to persuade someone to enjoy something that they don't … If there are elements that you still enjoy, then I'd focus on those. Also, from memory Mindy is like our dogs and loves learning tricks Tricks are great fun.

I love the story of the oranges. During the day when we're at work, our two have the run of the yard and also access to the kitchen via a dog door - only the kitchen though. We put their dog beds in the kitchen. The other day when we got home, we found ourselves being met at the front door by two very happy dogs who had apparently figured out how to open the kitchen door and had free rein of the house for the day A quick check confirmed that they had been well-behaved with no damage or messes - they hadn't even jumped up on the bed or sofa. The only thing out of the ordinary was that Hoover had decided to drag his dog bed mattress under my desk. Then he had run to the bedroom, retrieved Orca (his night-time soft toy) from on TOP of his crate and then brought it back to the mattress so that he could curl up there. Here is proof and the culprit.

Thanks so much for the replies guys The offers here and via PM are VERY, VERY sweet and most appreciated but I really couldn't inconvenience/take advantage of friends like that. In case anyone else is making 2011 Christmas plans, Yass Pets is already booked up for Christmas. If we want to book the doggies in for 2012, we will need to book in Jan/Feb 2012. I have calls in with some other recommended kennels to see if they have spots free. It's not the end of the world if we can't get anything for this Christmas, OH can make the 20+ hour flight to Toronto alone and endure the sub-zero Canadian winter alone and I'll stay here with the doggies and we'll venture back to Canada when it's 'Low Season' here and hopefully warmer Over There.

Errr, my two dogs are well-behaved but there are two of them. If I just had the one dog, I would be able to leave it with a dog-minded friend. The thing is, many of my dog minded friends and acquaintances already have one if not two dogs already so taking on our two lively young dogs for 2-3 weeks is quite a big ask, especially for those who have small yards. Also, the reason I would prefer a Don't Fret Pet arrangement is that I would be paying someone to assume the duty rather than feeling guilty/indebted to a friend. I have had offers to look after the two but I would feel like I was inconveniencing friends so would much prefer to pay for a service so that I can give very specific instructions (rather than requests) about how I want my dogs looked after. I'm not after free help, I want peace of mind while I'm overseas... I know a lot of people with beautifully behaved dogs who do not want to inconvenience friends and would rather pay for the service. With family, most of them are not doggy people and my brother (who is quite doggy), has become extremely allergic to dogs and can't really go near them without having breathing difficulties. My two don't bark, are not destructive, they toilet on command, they have never chewed a cable or destroyed anything in the house even when left unattended, they never counter surf even when food is left sitting on the bench, they ignore bags of open kibble sitting on the kitchen floor, they attend obedience training and are very relaxed and chilled most of the time - but the fact that remains that they are young, very lively at times (excited by new situations) and would probably be regarded as a lot of work for someone who isn't used to Kelpies Also, I would never 'lie' to anyone about my dogs - not only is that wrong, it's just counter-productive. I would never want someone unhappy and resentful tending my dogs and given how grateful I would be that they were looking after my dogs, I wouldn't dream of being anything but truthful with them. I would have assumed that with a Don't Pet Fret situation that I'd arrange for whoever the carer was going to be to meet my dogs first to make sure he/she was comfortable with them and that they wouldn't be placed with, for instance, someone who was mobility impaired or scared of medium-sized dogs/Kelpies .... ETA: I am not wanting to use 'Don't Fret Pet' because 'everything else is full'. My OH would prefer for them to be a home situation over a kennel because Elbie can be shy around strange dogs. If we can't find a suitable situation for the dogs over the break, then one of us will stay behind and we'll book ahead for Christmas 2012.

Ruby is soooooooooooooo cute. I love her face so much with its happy smile. Poppy's face is also very lovely - reminds me of one of the assistance dogs in Extraordinary Dogs who helped out with seizures - a very sensitive face. I only have these two photos - not very good quality I'm afraid because of the lighting but rather cute. OH left the dog bed in the lounge with me as I tested out the new Blu-Ray player in case one of the dogs wanted to keep me company. Hoover immediately plonked down. After a bit, Elbie decided to join him - resting his head on Hoover Then he just fell asleep

I've just found out that kennels in Canberra start being booked up for Christmas holidays around July-August, which is why I'm pondering the issue so early. Does anyone have any experiences to recount about: Don't Fret Pet rovers retreat Yass Pets I have one positive review for Yass Pets so far If people have other recommendations it would be appreciated. People have offered to take our two in for the time we're away but that's too much of an ask for family and friends, I fear ... Thanks very much in advance.

Does anyone have a view on turkey wings? I bought some on special today. I know they're fatty but our two are very lean so a bit of fat now and then is probably fine. Just want to know if it's generally safe?

One of my dogs (Elbie) was free to a good home. We weren't trying to save money by getting a freebie - we knew that dogs cost money and we'd spend heaps after we got him and drove an hour to Goulburn to get him ... He's been fine and he's very healthy and smart. Knowing what I know now, I'd always recommend that people go to an ethical and reputable breeder - if we ever wanted another dog, we'd be going back to Hoover's breeder. That being said, it's not the case that free dog = bad dog / unhealthy dog.

Hoover, passing silver obedience today Elbie almost passed silver. He dropped during his sit-stay, otherwise he passed everything else. Because he broke position, he didn't even get an encouragement award like he did last time so I guess that's why he kept wanting to gatecrash Hoover's photo dandybrush: We don't seem to have a top dog between the two. Hoover's much more pushier about doorways and getting to places but Elbie determines play - when they start and when they stop. Hoover looks for Elbie, Elbie couldn't give a hoot where Hoover is It seems to work for them. Edited because I called dandybrush raz ...

His floppy ears are soooooooo cute

Tonight the dogs slept in the dog bed that didn't have the cushion in it, so we put it on top of them

It depends on the pet store, I think. Pet's Paradise leave them in their cages overnight The one here in Civic is heart-breaking - it's a big mess with so many live animals. A few weeks ago, they had husky puppies, there's only one left now - a big, gorgeous, affectionate 12 week old fellow who was the last of his litter to be sold. He's too big for the glass cages and I guess they can't put him in with the oodles so he has a wire crate to himself now, but I'm not sure how much longer he'll be there. I asked the staff member what happens to him if he can't be sold and she said that he would be taken home by a staff member and sold 'privately'. She comes in at 5am to let the dogs run around the store for 3 hours but I suspect that's just because she's an animal-lover. The husky is quite heart-breaking because he is just getting so big and yet he's still such a hopeful, affectionate pup who loves cuddles. I really hope he can find a home and I really hope that one day we won't have to see dogs in pet stores anymore.

These dogs sound fascinating. I was Googling to find out more information about them and keep coming across Maremmas crossed with Border Collies. This sounds like a really horrific combination. Does anyone know how this sort of cross tends to turn out? It actually sounds potentially dangerous given the very different genetic programming of both breeds. Of course I'm not advocating cross-breeding, I'm just curious about what happens tends to happen behaviourally given that both breeds have such strong inherent behaviours programmed into them that are quite different.

I guess it just seems awful because they're out there with the sheep and not with the humans Out of interest, after you get a maremma, apart from the bonding it with the stock training, what other training should it receive? Any basic obedience etc?

I'd be very surprised if food-snatching was ever a breed-specific trait or if it was, you'd find anyone on this board saying it. What you've mentioned is definitely a training issue. As for my own personal experience, I have a Kelpie/Border Collie cross and Kelpie and both wait for their food and do not tend to ask for food from strangers although they will eat it if offered.

I think it really varies. I've seen extremely vocal, chatty Kelpies - one Kelpie at recent agility trials barked all the way through the course - but my dog Hoover is extremely quiet. He normally doesn't make a sound and when he does bark or whimper, it's very funny and unexpected. Elbie, my Kelpie/Border Collie cross generally doesn't bark much - although he has a bad habit (which we are working on!) of barking when he's tied up or when one of us walks away from him. Elbie definitely uses his paws like hands and will swat, put his paw on top of our hand, grip things etc. The traits that are generally common to Kelpies are - smart, eager to please, responsive, alert and affectionate. Most people will also say high-energy, but to be honest my two are fine with only one walk every two days (I alternate - I walk one dog one morning, the other dog the next day etc). I haven't noticed any nuisance barking or destructive behaviours but they do self-exercise as they chase each other around the yard, rest, chase then rest

At 14 months, Elbie (my Kelpie/Border collie cross) still has wonky ears like the image below: Hoover's ears were 'on the rise' in that photo. His ears went up at 5 months or so, when he was desexed at 6 months they dropped again and then rose slowly again so that at 7 months, they were both prick ears again. They've been up ever since - he's 10 months old now. Here are his ears Although the working Kelpie 'standard' does mention prick ears, heaps of very good working Kelpies have drop ears. A colleague asked me if Hoover's ears were natural or if I'd had them cropped!! Also, your puppy is very, very cute and I personally love flyaway wonky ears - Elbie has very expressively wonky ears

hi dandybrush We don't go out of our way to separate them for huge chunks of time - we work all day and time is precious so I'd say we spend most of the time all together - the four of us It's a tricky one but it will probably sort itself out quite naturally e.g. you'll take willow to puppy class and raz will be left alone. Raz will go to obedience/agility and willow won't go. You'll take one dog out for a walk and the other will be left at home. That's what happened with our two. We do a lot of training together but also apart. Training them together has its benefits - willow will watch and learn tricks from raz.

I love Roo's intensity as she devours cardboard. is this why she's over toilet rolls? She's gone for the big time?

Never get two dogs of the same gender (they will kill each other). Never get two dogs of similar age - they will die at the same time. They will also share a bed

Because of the mess we feed them outside not in their crates - we tether them a short distance apart and feed them their bones that way. We supervise to make sure there's no choking but we find it works better than feeding one at a time or OH taking one to one part of the yard and me the other to another part of the yard. We usually scatter kibble in the grass for their breakfast in the morning. These days we only use the Kong Wobbler/treat ball for if one is left behind while the other is being taken out e.g. for Hoover when Elbie's taken to agility training.

Hoover had it when he was younger, some photos here. Cleared up in a few weeks and he's totally fine and fluffy now.

I used to believe this, too and luckily for me, when we're out with our dogs, most people are very understanding and receptive when we ask them not to pat the dogs until they are sitting. The thing is, I agree with corvus that we can't always control the environment around us. For instance, I've been so careful to only let my dogs socialise with well-behaved dogs from the dog obedience club but as bad luck would have it, the first time my dog was attacked was during an agility class .... Last Thursday, when Elbie was sitting waiting for instructions near the tunnel, a Ridgeback dashed away from his owner, lunged at Elbie for no reason and started growling and snapping at him. This is a dog that passed the test to get into agility i.e. sitting in a small circle with other dogs, being in close proximity to other dogs, being recalled around other dogs - it's the same dog that Elbie's been having agility class with for the last three weeks with absolutely no incident. For me, it really demonstrated that even in a relatively controlled environment with well-behaved dogs and people, things can be unpredictable. For my part, if I believe that someone is going to ignore my instructions and still pat my dogs when they're not sitting, I'll just walk away with the dogs. I try really hard to avoid putting myself in situations with my dogs that I can't control.

Peeking

I haven't been able to reply properly today because work blocks DOL as a cult-site but I have been pondering this today: I was pondering this because I don't think that the advice is inconsistent. In the last thread, people were trying to tell you to do more with Echo i.e. find things that both of you enjoy doing so that things aren't a chore for either of you. People are still saying the same thing i.e. do less of things that you and Echo do not find interesting. If something is not working for Echo, put it away for the time being and work on something that you both enjoy, don't train when either is frustrated and bored. There have been so many tricks with our two where they didn't get it at first, we parked it, came back to it later and somehow it just seemed to click for them and they could do it. Also, when people give lots and lots of suggestions on different things, the idea isn't to do them all and then be dispirited when they don't work - it's to work your way through the things that have a better chance of success with Echo and then working on those. Elbie took a few days to learn spin, Hoover learned almost immediately. Elbie took about 2-3 days to learn beg - Hoover took weeks and weeks! "Are you shy" took Elbie about a week, Hoover spent weeks with tape on his face. At the time, OH and I were perplexed because we had dogs of similar intelligence and yet they learned different things at such different speeds. Also, not all dogs enjoy tricks. My two LOVE tricks - they are very keen to learn new ones, they like offering behaviours and it's something they enjoy. If they didn't enjoy the tricks, I probably wouldn't teach them tricks. I think you're still working your way through your relationship with Echo - eventually you'll find the quirky/funny/lovable/endearing traits that compensate for all the frustrations. wuffles once said that puppies were cute otherwise we'd probably want to kill them because they're frustrating it kind of applies as they get older - the lovable traits make us forgive them for the not so lovable traits. Anyone who knows Elbie knows that I've been working on calmness with him for SUCH a long time and we're still a long way off - but we make slow progress and I know he tries and we'll just keep working away at it ... Anyway, there was a lot of advice in the last lot of posts - I really hope that there was something in there that you can use and that's helpful for you.