koalathebear

We didn't use puppy pads so I can't help you there. Are you sure you want her to toilet in the house? I'm not sure about labs but with Kelpies, when they get older they get pretty big poos and can wee up a storm so all the puppy pads in the world wouldn't help! If you want her to toilet outside in future, it might be best to start as you intend to continue i.e. take her outside after every meal and drink and at frequent intervals to a designated part of your yard to toilet. If your pup only needs to wake up once in the night, I'd suggest that you take her outside for the 3am toilet break. Associate a cue word with toileting and praise her when she eliminates.

True. DOL makes it look like Good Dog Owners are 'born' the same way the Goddess Athena sprang into being fully formed and fully armed from the head of Zeus ... but a lot of people become good and responsible dog owners after they get a dog and it's a process of trial and error, asking questions of those who have gone before you and finding out what is most suitable for your circumstances. Even then there's room for discussion because not everyone agrees on what being a Good Dog Owners constitutes. I still think that the OP was right to ask for help and people should have tried to be constructive and helpful in their responses so that the OP could make the best possible decision using the best possible information, a clear-head that is unclouded by emotion and distress. The reason I'm 'defending' the OP is that I think I'm a responsible dog owner (although I'm sure many disagree) but I started in pretty much the same place the OP did and I've managed to deal with each issue that arises. Like her, I put my dog in a crate during the day as 'practice' for the night time crating - it wasn't with the intention of crating the dog all the time, it was with the intention of making the dog accustomed to and happy with the crate during the day so that he would be willing to go into it at night. I realise that there are people who are aggrieved and who think that the OP isn't ready for the dog blah blah, but by the same token - those people should realise that if you attack someone who is feeling so fragile (no matter how right you are), they're going to go into defensive mode and the message is less likely to go through. I am not saying that we have to be nice to everyone and sing kumbaya while braiding each other's hair - I'm saying that we have/had an opportunity to affect the future of this puppy and help the OP give it the best chance possible. Further down the track - it gets so much harder to 'fix' things.

The above is so true, especially at this point when an overload of information is probably even more stressful. Keeping it very simple is the best way to go. I also think that having a puppy can be VERY confusing even if you have done some research. Some people don't crate-train and think it's horrible to cage a dog - before I got Elbie, some of the youtube videos that showed crated dogs received very virulent backlash about 'cruelty' to animals. Some people suggest leaving water in the crate with the dog, others do not.

Thanks for that. Do you have video of you doing it? Just interested to see how it looks.

Dumb question! So how does this work with a command? You throw the food, they eat it and then you make them drop and then throw the food somewhere else? Sorry, just a bit confused about how it works

*points to disclaimer* I just thought that the link was interesting. I have not gone to personally verify if this dog-napping is indeed true or not. The documentary looks quite interesting overall so I'll have to see how easy it is to get.

I haven't seen the original documentary series (although am thinking of chasing it down) from which the above extract has been taken so can't vouch for its veracity. The link to the webpage for the 10-part series is here. The website says that the series was produced by Saint Thomas Productions, France 5, France 3, Canal+, National Geographic Channels.

Try not to feel so upset about people's comments. It's the Internet. People are just trying to help in their own way ;) I was incredibly lucky during my first week with Elbie that I received nothing but sympathy, kind words and support from people around me and online - I was sleep-deprived, regretting my decision to get a puppy, had Panda eyes and from memory burst into tears twice because I was so tired and stressed. I have absolutely no doubt that if I had posted to DOL at that time, I would have been absolutely slaughtered and received similar if not tougher advice than you have now. Thank goodness I didn't know DOL existed then. All I can say is that you are tired and over-sensitive now and it's easy to take things the wrong way. You've posted on a public forum so you're just going to have to toughen up and develop a thicker skin - what people here say or think about you is irrelevant. At the end of the day, it comes down to you and your puppy and whether you are a good owner to your dog and only you have control over that. If you've been told that staffys can be good in apartments, clearly it can be done. I have two Kelpies who live in a suburban backyard and don't get walked every single day but they're fine and happy - we make it work. What's most important now is that you get through the first traumatic weeks I often tell people that I feel quite a bit of regret that when Elbie was smallest and cutest, I was too stresed and anxious to really appreciate it! :D I really do feel your pain but just hang in there, things will get better. From what I hear, staffys are smart dogs and really want to please their owners so if you give your pup the love and patience she deserves, I'm sure you'll get there in the end. We read a lot before we got our dog but it all went out the window when we had a screaming creature in our faces - it was also hard to read all the links people sent me. Just try to keep it simple and consistent. She's a baby and doesn't understand complex concepts. 1. Definitely don't let her toilet in the crate if you can help it. There are already going to be inevitable accidents which will mean that you will have to do a lot of cleaning so where possible, try to discourage toileting there. 2. Keep a big supply of paper towels and Urine-Free ready. 3. During the day, have lots of Open Door crate time. 4. When she's in the crate and quiet, feed her treats and praise her. Also, dog ownership can be a constant challenge. I know that some people find it really easy and effortless but I find with my dogs that as soon as I overcome one challenge, a new one pops up!!! They definitely don't want me to be complacent Instead of being discouraged, I look back and think about how far I've come and how many: "Oh my god, how am I going to fix this one???" moments I've overcome and feel better. Also, when I first got Elbie, it drove me bananas how many of my friends said: "You think that's bad, just wait until you have kids." Such an unhelpful comment :p

It isn't reinforcing - that's why you take her out at regular intervals e.g. every 2 hours or every 3 hours regardless of whether she is screaming or quiet. Just don't play with her when you take her out for toileting - toilet her, praise her and pop her back in the crate. Some people are lucky that their pups sleep through the night as soon as they get them home but others of us have to put in the pain of late night wake-ups. It does pay off in the end - both my pups were taken out regularly (screaming or not) and they definitely got the message that toileting happens outside and knew that they weren't being rewarded for being noisy.

Poor you, I feel your pain. Our second dog got settled in a lot faster than our first puppy but we had learned a lot by then. I think unless people have gone through a similar nightmarish experience, it's hard to fully understand/sympathise. I'm going to extract below some posts from my 'puppy diaries' for Elbie. I'm sorry it's so long but I'm hoping it will help because you will see that we went through a very similar experience - he was an absolute angel during the day and a demon at night. If you stick with it, the pain will end :D Monday, April 5th, 2010 12:50am - Howler The puppy is fed, played with, has a toy a hot water bottle, a kong toy, a clock and is in our room in his crate but it is his first night here so he is crying and howling most heart-breakingly. He doesn't need the toilet because I have taken him out twice now. he stopped howling after half an hour but now he has started again. He has a lot of volume for such a tiny creature. Monday, April 5th, 2010 The puppy howled all night. Everything we've read though told us not to give in and we should just let him howl but while we were ok (sort of!) with him yowling away in our bedroom and stopping us from getting any sleep - we were extremely worried that the neighbours were going to complain ... We haven't found our own place yet but we knew that we couldn't get a puppy after we started working so while the timing is right for puppy-dom in terms of work, it's really not right in terms of housing. Yes, I knew we considered the risks when we decided to take the risk anyway ... but still, I am anxious ... I don't know how the dog managed to howl all night without passing out. This morning when my alarm went off at 6am, I took the create outside and tried to get him to do his poop poops :p I was mildly successful and he spent the next half hour exploring the courtyard which was fine. We can't keep him in the crate all the time of course and so we haven't been fast enough getting him out the door so we've had at least 5 puddles in the kitchen and one number two ... :p I'm getting laundry done now and today for a few hours, OH will be baby-sitting while I go off to buy: 1. alarm clock 2. windex 3. more paper towels 4. something to spray anything the dog piddled on in the hope that we can mask the smell so that he doesn't come back to do it again I really do not know how single people manage to look after puppies. When I had Kitt, there was my brother, Mama Koala and Papa Koala to help out. Now there's just OH and me and after last night's experience, we have decided that we do not ever want children ;) Tuesday, April 6th, 2010: Second sleepless night with the puppy ... Last night was as bad as the first night despite having followed the advice of many, many people .... I have posted a plea for help at a dog forum. I might have interviews starting soon and while two nights without sleep isn't bad in the scheme of things, it can't continue and the noise can't continue or the neighbours are going to freak Also, he now has a name. Elbie ... or L.B. I won't explain the acronym for fear of offending ;) later on the same day We are hoping very much that Elbie will settle down tonight. We've been monitoring him closely to try to avoid any accidents in his crate tonight. We're also going to move him closer to the bed so that he can see us and maybe this will reduce his panic - although we are still determined to ignoring his yelping ... I am very tired, though and we are taking him to the vet tomorrow and I have a job interview on Friday afternoon. A desperate plea for help on a dog forum - Help needed for problems with new puppy Hi - we just got a new puppy named Elbie on Sunday. He's an 8-week old Kelpie-cross. By day, he is absolutely adorable and very well-behaved. He loves cuddles, will crawl into an open lap and just loves to follow us around. He plays beautifully with strangers, isn't yappy at all and is remarkably quiet (in the day!) for a puppy. Weirdly enough, he even seems to love his crate and by day goes in voluntarily for a nap or just a rest. In just a day, he seems to have learned his corner of the garden which is to be his toilet and when outside he has been trying to make it to that corner to do his business. We have been crate-training him and have been giving him three meals, water only at meals but he can drink as much water as he likes at meals. The problem we have right now is that our angel by day turns into an absolute puppy monster at night. We have read very extensively about puppy's first night, crate training and toilet training but reality is always a bit different ... He goes into his crate voluntarily enough. He has a toy in there, a little alarm clock, a warm blanket and we have a little radio to play late night talk-back on a very low volume. We try to get him tired out before bed - it's very easy to tire him out usually - just a few runs around the yard. His crate sits in our bedroom because the other areas of the house aren't very dog-appropriate at night. We try to take him downstairs every 2-3 hours to go to the toilet but here's the problem... From the time 'bedtime' starts, Elbie not only cries, he howls, whimpers, howls, barks, moans and makes every sound known to man and then some more. He's incredibly loud, sounded anguished and I suspect we're going to get complains from the neighbours soon. It's been two nights now and each night is the same, he screams and screams and screams - whether crying/barking/howling. We are following the rule of 'ignoring' him but of course we have to take him downstairs every 2-3 hours so that he can go to the toilet and even though we do try to wait for a moment when he's quiet to take him down, given that he is almost never silent at night, it's unavoidable that sometimes we look like we're going to him when he's howling. We are very business-like with him though and take him down to the toilet patch and will praise him if he does his business but otherwise try not to interact with him. Last night was a problem, despite the fact that I tried to take him down every 1-2 hours, he managed to poop three times and made an absolute mess of his bedding and toys - the back deck was strewn with poopy mayhem this morning and it's been a very slow business trying to tidy it up. All three warm towels/blankets I had set aside for him are soiled and I have to clean them today and his toys all need to be cleaned, too ... So my problem is, what are we doing wrong? I'm afraid that by ignoring him when he's crying and barking that he's just going to think it's ok to bark at night. Some people say that the crying only lasts 1 night, others say even up to two weeks. I know that he misses his mother and brothers and sisters but we've been trying to make it as non-scary as we can. We even put a little light on in the bedroom last night so that he could see us. Unfortunately we have to do this by way of crate because we can't have him wandering around on his own at night. During the day he seems so eager to please but at night, the sounds that come out of him are almost terrifying. We are going to try to train him more during the day to be in his crate when the door is closed but at present, we can't distinguish between his "I need to go to the toilet" yowl and his "I miss my mother" yowl ... If anyone can help we would be most appreciative. We've already grown attached to him - right now as I type, he's asleep with his head resting against my feet for comfort. Alas, there could be real problems if his nighttime howling continues like this. Thank you very much in advance. * Helpful response: My chihuahua puppy, cried and cried for like two solid weeks. Finally she is just occasionally bitching when we go, but nothing too crazy serious. At night, what helped us calm her is to put the crate not 6 inches from the edge of the bed and when she would stop whimpering, we would wake up and say, 'good girl for being quiet,' and stick our fingers through the bar so she could lick/smell them. Well, no we, really, just me. It worked out pretty well and after a month we were able to move her crate clear across the bedroom, and if she cries now, all we have to do is tell her, 'go to bed, peach, it's bedtime' and she settles in with her heating pad and kong. Maybe try bringing his cage closer to your bed at night? It resulted in me getting no sleep for like, two solid weeks (probably more since she was sick for a while and had to be fed- by me- at 2 am), but now she's fine. I've also had her accidentally get the runs while she is in her cage before she can make it to her litterbox (she's litter trained, in-cage since she is so tiny, the vet recommended it) and the poor thing never made a peep to let us know and instead just sat in a pile of poop all night. It broke my heart so bad! I was so sad for her. Lucky for us, the apartment above us (the only neighbor we have) is vacant, so when she did cry it was dead of winter (no one outsideto hear) and of course no one lived up there. :3 Good luck! Friday, April 9th, 2010 - Elbie the Puppy has stopped crying at night It's actually been two nights but I wanted to make sure that the first night wasn't a fluke before posting about it given that the first night was the night after his vaccinations. Wednesday night, he was pretty subdued because of his vaccinations but by the late evening he was quite lively again. As mentioned, we placed the crate near the bed and got him very settled and talked to him. Then as I lay in bed, I had my fingertips in the crate so that he could lick/smell them as he liked. He also liked to lean against my fingers and sleep on them:P When I got up to wash my hands, he'd whimper a bit but not yelp. That night, every two hours I was taking him downstairs and bringing him back. Again he'd whimper a little bit at the beginning but stop after he could lick my fingers. So Wednesday night there was no high volume crying/barking/howling etc. Last night, OH took his turn at being responsible for taking Elbie down for toilet every 2 hours and Elbie appeared to have become accustomed to the routine. He was very quiet when he went to bed, then each time he came back from his toilet,he'd sit and wait very quietly in his crate looking at me soulfully as OH went off to wash his hands. Last night he didn't even whimper let alone cry/bark/howl and he was perfectly behaved so now he's as well-behaved at night as he is during the day. Not too bad in the scheme of things - if only we'd tried the fingertip access on the first nights we could have saved ourselves 3 nights of stress and woe We were so terrified not to "break the rule" of ignoring a crying puppy that we didn't realise that we could put our fingers into the crate when he was calm so that he didn't get agitated to start with - then there was no risk of teaching him that bed behaviour reaps rewards. Argh. Dog psychology :D * As you can see, we went through a pretty similar experience to you. The sleeplessness and the stressfulness in worrying about the neighbours was very tiring. Also, I swear I had never seen so much poo in my life. Also, unlike other people, as a puppy Elbie screamed ALL NIGHT LONG with only the occasional pause where I would hold my breath and hope that he had gone to sleep - only to find that he would start barking, wailing, howling and screaming again like a demon. I found out that part of the problem was that the 'breeder' had let Elbie sleep in her son's bed so he was used to sleeping in a bed not a crate :p Nonetheless, in just a few days we were able to stop him crying at night by just putting our fingertips into the crate at night. We started out with him in a little travel crate like this: We moved the crate further and further away from the bed until after a week or so, we moved the crate down to the kitchen without him crying. Then we migrated him into this larger crate I was pretty tense/stressed about it but it turned out fine. When we moved house, he was a little unsettled for the first two nights but only cried for about 10 minutes and then he was totally fine. Elbie was almost fully house trained by four months having only the very rare accident. We took him out every two hours, then every three hours, then every four. Eventually he slept through the night without problem. By the time our second puppy came, we were better prepared. Hoover cried a lot the first two nights but he settled very quickly and he was also house-trained very quickly. If you hang in there and keep to a routine, you'll be fine. Both my dogs are now perfectly behaved in the house with no accidents, no damage or destructive behaviours and are left at home alone for 10 hours or so. In case you don't feel like reading all of the above, the suggestions are: 1. Put the crate near the bed, put your fingertips in the crate 2. Gradually move the crate further away and out of the room if necessary 3. Toilet the dog after each meal or drink. Take the dog out every couple of hours even at night - you'll get a sense for how long she can hold on. With Hoover, we were able to jump to 'no late night toilet stop' pretty quickly. Some people are lucky and don't have to take their dogs out so constantly but our problem was that we could not distinguish between the: "I miss my mum" scream and the "I need to poo/I am rolling in my own poo and very uncomfortable!!!!!!!" scream 4. Have a toilet command so that your dog learns to associate the command with what you want her to do - makes life easier when it's cold. Elbie toilets on command, Hoover does, too - although he's stubborn about it when it's raining :p 5. During the day, leave the crate door open and only close it now and then 6. During the day, put surprise treats and toys in the crate and praise like crazy when your puppy goes in Good luck! ETA: Also, when Elbie was a screaming puppy, he found this song quite soothing - I kid you not

My name's Hoover. I'm bored. No one will play with me. Today the humans took Elbie to Dog School and I was left at home All By Myself with nothing but a Kong Wobbler. They also make me sit in the car when Elbie does agility because they say that I'm too young. Also, Elbie just punched me in the face. :p

By the way, that photo of Mars is absolutely gorgeous. It looks very professional!!! I wanted to take a better photo of Elbie but Hoover kept hurtling over to try to bonehead the photo

Possible the wildlife are tagged by wildlife officers to keep track of them? I felt sorry for the pup, too but given how bad its mother was at protecting it, perhaps it was better off where it ended up :p

Psst. Blue can't turn chocolate unless she rolls in mud Will your team all be staying at the same hotel? You and Max (and Daisy if she comes can stay with us that weekend. OH said: "Will she mind that we have a lot of dog hair everywhere?"

I LOVE Miss Daisy. I hope I get to meet Miss Daisy and Master. Max one of these days. Looking forward to seeing a photo of Cousin Mars with his ribbon and certificate.

Yes, I was a bit distressed by that at first but the older pups seemed quite happy to be living among and growing up with the baboons. I wonder if that's how dogs were first domesticated by humans??? The other day when the dogs were snoozing on our bed, OH and I were pondering how weird it was to have vicious carnivores lying on the bed with us and sharing our lives and how the wolves had got to 'this' point. I know people say that in ancient times, the dogs would have hung around the camp sites of humans and that there were mutual benefits to living near one another - but I wonder who made the first overture of friendship - wolf or human? :D

Has anyone seen this video? It's quite fascinating - baboons kidnap wild puppies and raise them in their own pack. The dogs end up being part of the family - Stockholm Syndrome I guess :p Warning - the bit where the baboon kidnaps a puppy is a bit upsetting because the puppy doesn't want to go but clearly the dogs end up staying and growing up with the family. The link to the webpage for the 10-part series is here. The website says that the series was produced by Saint Thomas Productions, France 5, France 3, Canal+, National Geographic Channels. Edited to add Disclaimer: Disclaimer: I have not seen the original documentary series from which the above extract has been taken. The link is to a third party site and I am not responsible for the accuracy or legitimacy of information found on the Internet. Accordingly, I do not expressly or impliedly warrant the accuracy of the information contained therein nor endorse its veracity. I disclaim any liability to any person(s) who are feeling or expressing any irritation at said link. I merely thought it was interesting so thought I would share it with others. Any person(s) relying on this information should make their own inquiries and satisfy themselves as the appropriateness and application of the information and whether or not baboons really do kidnap and adopt wild dogs or whether they just hang out together hakuna matata style.

OK I just tried the prong collar on myself - Elbie and Hoover were very puzzled - also extremely disappointed that I put it on myself instead of them because they thought that they were going to get to go for a walk. It was fine, didn't even leave a mark.

The day I thought would never came, finally came. Elborino finally passed silver level obedience Fourth time lucky I guess Next week, he and Hoover (who passed silver his first time) move into Gold Obedience class together with Clastic's clever doggy Mars - who also passed silver his first time

i would think so ... the newest 'fad' I really doubt it. While the dog in the movie is clearly well-trained and has learned a lot of tricks - his character is not that kind of a dog. He's not a desperate to please, biddable dog - he's very much his own person, a bit mysterious - does his own thing so the movie's not a long demonstration of his trick-ability. On top of that, I love Kelpies and I think Koko is gorgeous, but Red Dog (like all Kelpies) is just a very doggy looking dog. He's not 'cute' or 'odd-looking', you don't get more 'ordinary/average' dog-looking than a Kelpie so it would be very surprising if Kelpies suddenly became all the rage as a result of this movie.

Ours mostly toilet in a designated corner of the yard so it's not the toileting that's killing the grass. It's the fact that they run around like this: Their 'turning circles' on the sides are particularly bald :p

Part of our back yard when we bought the house had grass, part of it was just dirt. With the dogs running around on it, the grass is thinning out. I would really like to have more grass in the yard. OH thinks there's no point because the dogs running on it will just wear it out again. Has anyone had success growing grass in the backyard with dogs? Would that mean that for a period of x weeks we wouldn't be able to let the dogs in the backyard? Any tips or should we resign ourselves to a life of mud and dirt? Thanks in advance!

Thanks for that. Interesting stuff!

It's expensive but really worth it - it's such an interesting read.

I think it would be lovely to have a Karrawarra Kelpie - it would be like having your own piece of Kelpie history in your family Hoover's got a bit of Karana and a lot of Riana in his background. I asked WKC for a 6 generations bloodlines search to see if he had any of the dogs that Parsons mentioned in his book in his background Alas no - but definitely some funny names. Kelpies get such funny names like Yakka and Cobber and Tess and Bess have to be the most common name for Kelpie bitches ever. I'm glad Barru is nice - I actually found a lot of the working breeders surprisingly ok about the thought of their dogs going into a non-working home. Could you tell how conflicted Parsons was about Kelpies in agility? On the one hand, he is Proud on the other hand he isn't quite sure he approves