Aidan3

Isn't that a recent shot of one of the Village People? You'd be missing out then Aidan.. I find the minatures quite different to the standards in temperament and prefer the smaller dog. Clearly Churchill displayed the same discerning taste. Of course many a manly man will opt for the Toy Poodle! Easier to carry on the Harley.

I would own a poodle. A standard, obviously, not one of those girly ones like Churchill had.

Originally it would have obviously been a quicker path to take a line of proven seeing eye dogs then try to give it a poodle coat. Although apparently one of the first recipients turned out to be allergic to poodle and lab coats, but not crossed coats (I don't know how they would measure this accurately, allergy testing is not an exact science today, let alone 30 years ago). Obviously that's not the line of enquiry for BYBers and puppy mills, but I suppose it comes down to opinion after you wipe them from the face of the earth and just look at those who have the best of intentions. There are some who believe they can consistently produce the best examples of their breed, eventually. There are some ethical issues even amongst those, but again it is a matter of opinion. I spoke with a guy who was home-breeding his Rott x Dobes and to speak to him he was convinced that he wasn't getting a mix of traits - but a Rott PLUS a Dobe (although he assured me none of them had two heads, but they acted like they had four balls). He was also of the opinion that they were "highly dominant lines", not just slightly lazier Dobes or slightly thinner Rotts. I get the impression that this is not an uncommon opinion, people are eternally optimistic with cross-breeds whether they be dogs, chooks, horses etc

That's actually not so hard to fix, you just extinguish the pre-emptive responses by not reinforcing them. It might take a few sessions but you'll get there. If he is 100% spot-on with pointing, jerking your head etc just make sure you give the verbal cue before you do any of that. Pretty soon he will start to anticipate based on the verbal cue, problem solved.

See? It's not so hard. There will be lots of contextual cues, hence the suggestion to start with really obvious hand signal (which you can keep using for other things) and add the verbal cue until the verbal cue predicts the response on it's own.

Would she put that down to the Poodles or the Labs? (just stirring )

Off-leash areas have been the least of my problems, although I do prefer places we can walk and avoid fenced in "doggy play parks".

Does anyone agree that sometimes dogs can just have a bad day? Imagine you've had a terrible day at work, managed to hold it together all day, then get home and the kids say something that just tips you over the edge and you snap and say something rude. The kids didn't do anything particularly wrong, they weren't rude or ill-mannered or poorly socialised or over-the-top - they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time so they copped it. Who knows? Maybe the other dog had had enough of being polite to friendly dogs for the day so the next friendly dog just copped it? Or maybe he'd been attacked earlier, so the man was just re-introducing his dog to other dogs from a safe distance?

Perhaps it would help if you defined what socialisation means to you, Malsrock? The suggestion seems to be that dogs end up at one end or the other of extremes if allowed to socialise, so I'm just wondering whether you are referring to puppy free-for-alls or dog park derbies, or something more sensible?

Why does it always have to be someone's fault? She was in an off-leash area, mistakes happen.

Just a note on "100%" - if any other behaviour has any probability whatsoever, then you don't have a 100% recall. Add all those other possible behaviours up and even a 99% recall starts to look pretty unlikely.

If you get a front attaching harness, it can be an idea to get a double-ended leash as well. The free end can be attached to the normal collar, then you have the option of either front-attaching harness (in an emergency) or normal flat collar at all times. Practise your loose leash walking holding the leash closer to the collar end.

I'm definitely not saying this is the cause but it bears consideration, sometimes one dog will find ways to keep the peace between other dogs in a group. If you took him out of the picture, maybe some other tension might become evident?

What sort of off-leash park? This is an off-leash park: There are no other dogs in the video, but there are other dogs there. One of the things I like about this place is that there is plenty of room. Typically my Golden will go and greet other dogs and by some indeterminate communication (or extraordinarily good luck) he stops them approaching my GSD. If we don't have any room or Django isn't with us, I have her heel. If they really don't get the message that we're not interested in greeting, then she might bark which I think is perfectly reasonable. If they have a problem with this (has not happened in an off-leash area), then whose dog really has the problem?

Optimism. There's your thesis right there, I'll have my name right after yours thanks. Kthxbai.

But what if you mix them in with their normal food? Do they still like them then?

... unless they are suffering depression, which usually only happens when we shock them and they can't do anything to avoid it. (ETA: several times, not just the once)

I don't know about ethologists and veterinary scientists, but shock is used extensively in psychology and animal behaviour studies. We do know that shock can be nasty, that's why it works. Whether it causes distress or not depends on a couple of factors, how much is used and how it is used, not the fact that it is used. Ethics is a science in itself, going back to the Nuremberg trials. Nothing is ruled for no reason or for circular reasoning. I asked the chair of the ethics committee at UTas whether Watson's "Little Albert" or the Milgram experiments would pass ethics today, she told me "possibly, it depends", whereas I have asked the same question of lecturers and they have said a flat "no". (I must sound like a bit of a deviant, eh?)

It would depend on the committee, the subjects and the purposes of the study but I would be very surprised if sound aversion were accepted. Shock is used a lot but it depends on the context and as I understand it these are volunteer pet dogs so there are too many issues. Corvus, is your ethical committee accessible? Someone from the committee might make a suggestion, they would have plenty of background to draw from. Water spray would be my suggestion. Alternatively, I've not met many dogs who like the taste of orange, and I can't see anyone getting upset about giving dogs pieces of orange or orange juice.

I think they do, not the same but certainly similar. Learning is very similar, of course. Although mine don't seem to feel cold

Yes, they sure do stop pulling. I use a Springer, the spring takes all the power out of the dog and the apparatus holds them in a safe position. An alternative is to use a double ended leash, with one end attached to the harness and the other to the prong collar (which might be effective on the dead ring).

Would you try the same test with a head-collar on your face? No. But I wouldn't put one on my thigh then claim I had some understanding of the dog's perception either. And if someone told me they did this, or that they ran their dog alongside their bike on one, I would respond similarly. Call me a fool, but I stopped worrying about upsetting the apple cart a long time ago.

I can only respond to what has been said. In a thread about clearing up an unsubstantiated misconception I think we should try to stick to the facts so that people can make informed judgements. It was said as a general statement of fact, which it is not. It has also been said that prong collars don't "inflict any pain at all". It is not in the best interest of dogs and the people who own them to perpetuate myths like these. Something that might happen a small proportion of the time should not be passed off as something that happens all the time, nor should it be passed off as something that never happens at all.

Not to single you out SK, as others have said similar, but I think in a thread where people are attempting to clear up unsubstantiated opinions about one tool we should be careful not to start making them about other tools.

OK, "in" it is! Either way, the behaviour is being rewarded every single time. Food isn't necessary to maintain it, although it might be useful to shape the initial mechanics of the behaviour.