Black Bronson

That's what I don't like about limited registration which is essentially equivilent to a unpapered dog. When I first began purchasing purebreed dogs in the early 80's you had the choice of papered or unpapered...........there was no big deal other than unpapered was always cheaper. Some people would go unpapered and save some money, some would go papered to have the papers, and not all papered purchases were shown or bred. Sorry but rubbish. Limited register is nothing like having an unpapered dog. An unpapered dog is one you can't prove it's pedigree or the fact it's even a purebred. Limited Register is exactly the same as Main Register, just with showing and breeding restrictions. Simple. Showing and breeding restrictions is consistant with both unpapered and limited registration same thing. I can understand the limited register is good for perhaps proving a breed doesn't fall under dangerous dog legislation would be helpful, but other than that, the limited register has no real purpose. In competition or trialling, what's the use of limited registered great dog that cannot be reproduced, same goes for working dogs???. Limited register on a good breed example shuts a door prematurely which should be left open as you never know how a dog may turn out.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders. Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them. Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from. Breeder politics at times runs deep to the point of being rediculous. Several times I have come across a situation where a particular dog is a good prospective sire for a particular bitch but the breeder won't use that dog because the dog owner is a person that the breeder doesn't like???. That doesn't help the breed, in fact it restricts the breeds progress, but similar scenarios based upon breeder politics happens often which I don't agree with that mentality.

That doesn't make sense . If the puppy was on a drip in care for that long, there is at least $1000 I would imagine..........$70 roughly for a stool culture which would normally be done early in the treatment process???. Who would refuse or not pay for a culture when the puppy is on drip therapy, or leave a puppy in care and just hope for the best without exploratory proceedures being done to determine illness???. Normal instinct is to know the reason why the puppy is sick and how it can be cured

Correct..............now tells us Shyla hasn't got a good temperament Carlibud???. Shelle has explained exactly what GSD's do and they often don't realise their strength over small dogs until it's too late and as Shelle has told us first hand, they can and do often play too rough I know I shouldnt bite , but where did I say a GSD playing rough hasnt a good temp????????, What I do say is that not all GSD's will / have to, have a high prey drive and because they havnt, dosnt mean they are weak nerved dogs for goodness sake ;) Your post is implying that all GSdDs will/should hunt a cavvy down and attack it if it runs, due to having, that high prey drive. You say you have a highly trained dog and yet your dog wouldnt be able to be trusted with small dogs by the sounds of it, you say he has to be watched constantly so he dosnt hurt the puppy , or am I reading that whole post wrong ???? Well I hope that they wouldnt all have temps like that, I wouldnt have one in my yard if I thought they did. Sorry but I dont agree with this comment at all, as seen in photos, alot of GSd's play and live with small dogs and dont hurt them, If Shyla was to have constant small dogs to play, she might learn that it isnt the thing to do and learn to play gentle, yes they do the bop on the head pat when they want them to play or stop but its not an attack thing . But it also dosnt mean she has a bad temp cause she plays rough alot of difference BB Why do all GSD's have to have a high prey drive to have a TRUE GSD temp?????, which is your opinion. You say that any dog that dosnt have that high prey drive is going to be a fear biter , well sorry but I think you are wrong again. Of course GSD Puppies have needle sharp teeth, but so do all puppies, so even if they got another cavvy puppy it would also bite an older one and be put in its place more than likely. So using that excuse is a bit silly Sorry Sunny but constant talk like this really gets to me. The GSD if in the right hands is a wonderful smart, intelligent breed, and can live with any breed of dog. In the wrong hands well , that also goes for alot of breeds. Anyway hopefully the OP does look into the right puppy to suit their family, and it should be the same no matter what breed they get, but hopefully they will get the best breed in the world Carlibud, I didn't say the GSD should attack the Cav, they chase and latch on, they wrestle in play, my 3 and 8 year old wrestle all the time and love each other the best of friends, it's what they do, never a hint of aggression..........but, that type of play with a little Cav.........it's too small for rough and tumble large dog play you would need to be on top of it is my opinion that's all I didn't talk about nerve either, that's another story, but prey drive is necessary in the GSD to be able to perform in the working roles set out for the breed and some have more prey drive than others. Some don't have enough prey drive to work at all. A GSD depending on the lines can vary greatly in drive and some can exhibit over sharp aggression and not all are perfect in temperament or stable in mind it just depends. It's not fair to the OP in this thread to generalise that any GSD puppy she may purchase will be a meek and mild, gentle sooky soul with minimal drive. My little 12 week old working line boy was hanging off my 8 years old's tail tonight with a full bite ;) because he wagged his tail and the puppy thought would be fun to grab hold of The old boy snarled at him and the puppy got off and sooked up to him and was put in his place. My little boy would monster a Cav already at 12 weeks. This puppy behaviour is not limited to working lines either, plenty of drivey showlines too, they are all GSD's Some do breed for mildness........personally I don't like those dogs as they don't work well which workability is my passion for the breed, but some do breed workability so for the OP's question, we can't generalise as there are different types of GSD breedings out there. If the OP got one that ticks "all the boxes" in the breed standard in regard to working genetics, the puppy will be a drivey little thing possibly too much for a Cav is what I am saying. Some will class a great temperament as mildness and a friendly softness, others will class a great temperament as sharp and aggressive, given that the question, "what's a GSD like???", it covers a fairly broad spectrum which come in different styles

That's what I don't like about limited registration which is essentially equivilent to a unpapered dog. When I first began purchasing purebreed dogs in the early 80's you had the choice of papered or unpapered...........there was no big deal other than unpapered was always cheaper. Some people would go unpapered and save some money, some would go papered to have the papers, and not all papered purchases were shown or bred. Then a trend developed that unless you were going to show or breed and you passed the breeders eligibility criteria you got an unpapered (limited register) dog for the same price???. Hang on..........unpapered were always cheaper what gives here???, we are shifting the goal posts in the breeders favour???. For the consumer, this is a backward step, no advantage to me in the current trend........if I pay the money for a good dog, I expect a full set of papers. As a consumer, I am not interested in the breeders agenda, it's none of my business and the breeders role to me is someone having a puppy that's worthy of purchase in my eyes is all that matters to me. It's still a business transaction when money exchanges hands and breeder restrictions IMHO doesn't amount to particularly good deal. I don't buy a puppy to look after the breeders interests, it's in their interests to supply me and any other comsumer with a good dog. If it truns out a good dog, great I would support them totally, if it doesn't turn out, I will avoid those lines next time Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

That used to be common in the old days

How long will a GSD puppy remain smaller than a Cav...........a month???. And the GSD puppy will chase the Cav around and bite with it's needle sharp teeth........as they do at 8 to 20 weeks or so. I am yet to find anyone breeding GSD puppies that don't chase and bite with needle sharps at that age and if the Cav doesn't like it, there is an issue developing as the GSD gets bigger and bigger. Yes, introducing a small puppy to large adult dog that has manners is better, but training manners into a young large puppy doesn't happen overnight. The question: "how will a GSD puppy go with a Cav"........it could be hard work.........especially if the Cav is submissive and runs away a lot which in all seriousness is a fair perception.

Correct..............now tells us Shyla hasn't got a good temperament Carlibud???. Shelle has explained exactly what GSD's do and they often don't realise their strength over small dogs until it's too late and as Shelle has told us first hand, they can and do often play too rough And there are plenty who do realise their strength and do play nicely with small dogs! There are small dogs who play too roughly with large dogs also - its about finding the right combination. I bred the GSD in the photos that Pixie posted, curled up with the JRT and I know he has excellent prey drive and yet he gets along well with his little friends and cats too. Perhaps we should be explaining to the OP how she would go about choosing from a litter of 8 week old puppies, which puppy will make the "right combination"???

We talking prey drive and small dogs Kitkat...........mine are gentle smoochers also which isn't relevent to rough play. The point is, we can't guarantee what the OP may purchase.........perhaps a fear biter, then what Let's just provide our experiences and let the OP decide what they want

They are the same dogs Kavik, except the lower drive puppies will normally be selected for pet only homes and the driven and more dominant puppies selected for work and sport.

You don't have any shot's of Jazz's character test do you Calibud...........what's her score in protection phase just out of interest???

Correct..............now tells us Shyla hasn't got a good temperament Carlibud???. Shelle has explained exactly what GSD's do and they often don't realise their strength over small dogs until it's too late and as Shelle has told us first hand, they can and do often play too rough

Thanks for sharing your experience, an excellent HONEST post My condolences for your poor little Daschie, sadly with large size differences, it can happen.

What aggression issues , I am talking about prey drive???

I agree with Poodlefan totally. Never mind about these soft placid GSD's you hear about..........they are not good examples of the breed and lack the traits of a true GSD. If you purchase a GSD bred to type, they are high in prey drive, they chase, bite as puppies and play hard and a little dog unable to cope with the GSD physical size can cop a hiding, not from aggression, but just pure rough play. The more the little dog runs away generally in fear of the GSD's size, the harder the GSD will chase and capture. It is managable and is not impossible to create harmony, but hard work with constant supervision of their interactions. I have the opposite at present with high drive 3 year old GSD and a 12 week old GSD puppy and the 3 year old is a trained dog, but you have to watch them with such a massive size difference as the small dog/puppy can be easily hurt or frightened Geez I would not like to meet your GSD. I agree BB Black Bronson we dont need that debate AGAIN Sunny Flower my GSd Jazzy is 12 month old and plays with the Cavvie next door and he also played with both of my girls together, when Bryds was here, and she was only 18 months so still a pup as well. If he is out the front with his mum or dad he is straight over to play, he loves them. Of course pups are pups and can get rough but they adjust to size of their mates. Bryd's best mate was my sisters Whippet who gave her what for if she got too rough I could let any dog or pup play with my girl, and thats exactly how it should be IMO, because thats a good temperament. That's great Carlibud if you think that all GSD's should be a Golden Retriever dressed in GSD uniform, but you don't know what type of GSD the OP may end up with..........it could be a working line GSD for all we know and the OP has asked a question and deserves a true account of the breed from all perspectives. It's hardly a consolation to the OP once a high drive GSD injures her little Cav to say "oh my GSD's wouldn't do that" well mine could easily because of their drive levels and desire to chase and win the game. Not everyone breeds GSD's like yours Carlibud and the OP needs to be aware of that, don't you think that's fair and honest

It's not about being over sharp (highly strung) it's about natural prey drive in play..........big dog versus small dog. If the Cav is submissive and doesn't put the GSD puppy in it's place early, the GSD as it grows will chase the Cav all over the place and want to play ear tug, leg tug, rugby tackles etc etc. If the GSD is a dominant puppy and scares the Cav, the GSD won't leave it alone and can easily make the Cav's life miserable. It's not an aggressive response, it's hard play

I agree with Poodlefan totally. Never mind about these soft placid GSD's you hear about..........they are not good examples of the breed and lack the traits of a true GSD. If you purchase a GSD bred to type, they are high in prey drive, they chase, bite as puppies and play hard and a little dog unable to cope with the GSD physical size can cop a hiding, not from aggression, but just pure rough play. The more the little dog runs away generally in fear of the GSD's size, the harder the GSD will chase and capture. It is managable and is not impossible to create harmony, but hard work with constant supervision of their interactions. I have the opposite at present with high drive 3 year old GSD and a 12 week old GSD puppy and the 3 year old is a trained dog, but you have to watch them with such a massive size difference as the small dog/puppy can be easily hurt or frightened

Correct from my experiences. Male's will generally fit in with the order of dominance and live with it

Just an old dog trying to learn new tricks Sas............and some of these new tricks don't make a lot of sense sometimes

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines. Your boy is on limited register because you were conned out of a main registration that was rightfully yours.............unless you got him at a reduced price like the old days unpapered sale. Because you knew little about the breed and your boy was your introduction doesn't automatically make you an irresponsible owner unworthy of a main registered pup. That's a cheek in it's self.........if a breeder thinks I am not worthy of, or qualify for a main registered pup, they can belt it up their jumper........I will go elsewhere to a breeder who doesn't want their cake and eat it too You're really anti breeders aren't you? Perhaps GayleK's breeders put him on limited reg to be responsible. How do they know that GayleK wasn't going to see dollar signs herself with her main reg puppy and sell him on to someone else to breed with? If a breeder will sell a main reg puppy to anyone and everyone, particularly someone who thinks they DESERVE one, then IMO they don't care much about their lines or their breed. No, not at all, I am anti breeders laying down too many conditions which is on the increase. What the OP has mentioned is out of control............but it starts somewhere and evolves. My first purebreed I purchased was in 1982 and I remember clearly the breeder asking if I wanted papers or not. Papered puppies were $300 and non papered $200 and chose papered for the novelty of owning a purebreed papered dog. $300 back then was a lot for a dog when you could get a BYB generally for free, no more than $10/$15 tops. Not too many donkeys would pay that money for a dog, the breeders knew that and the same applies today. There may be exceptions where irresponsible people will buy a quality purebreed for misadventure, but seriously, some breeders get carried away with this philosphy and suspect every buyer belongs to the BYB set and are purchasing to specifically mess up their lines and ruin their puppies which is not true.

But if it's just a pet, why do you need a different colour on your papers? Main register isn't just a piece of paper to say that this dog is of higher quality than limited - just like limited doesn't mean its of lesser quality than main. It's still important paperwork stating that the dog is a pedigree dog. One just means you can show and breed registered pups from. I'm not sure why you keep assuming that because the dog is on limited, that its still not a show quality pup? My boss' breeder had picked out their pup as one they wanted to run on for showing. He is of show quality and had my boss and family not come along and made as good an impression on the breeder, the breeder would have kept him also, and shown him etc. But, he's in a pet home now and so therefore on the limited register. Just because it's on the limited register doesn't mean its not show quality!! If someone is new to the breed but develops a genuine interest in showing and the breed, and the breeder can see they're legitimate, I think that as long as they breeder felt the dog was high enough standard to be shown (keeping in mind too that it will be handled by a novice) then they would seriously consider upgrading to give them a chance. Or, they could go and learn from their breeder and other breeders and their second puppy can be of show quality. Breeders can and do upgrade papers, not sure why you would say 'it's all over'?? No, I am not saying limited register is a lesser quality but it should be. The registration has nothing to do with the home, it's to do with the puppy. If it's good quality it should be on main regardless and if faulty, it goes on limited. Ultimately, if breeders a placing good pups on limited that are main register quality, they are ripping their buyers off IMO

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines. Your boy is on limited register because you were conned out of a main registration that was rightfully yours.............unless you got him at a reduced price like the old days unpapered sale. Because you knew little about the breed and your boy was your introduction doesn't automatically make you an irresponsible owner unworthy of a main registered pup. That's a cheek in it's self.........if a breeder thinks I am not worthy of, or qualify for a main registered pup, they can belt it up their jumper........I will go elsewhere to a breeder who doesn't want their cake and eat it too

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family. If it has a disqualifying fault, it's faulty. A crossbreed can live long healthy life too, but cannot be papered. Not all puppies rated as very promising turn out champions but are still breedworthy and still shown and bred. If it's a good pup, it deserves to be main registered IMO. I do wish you'd answer my previous post. Okay, so why? Why does it deserve to be main registered, if it is going to a pet home and is not to be used for breeding? Limit registering isn't bulletproof but puts a safety blanket there in case, despite the breeder's better judgement, the dog falls into the wrong hands and is bred. Just because it's a 'good dog' doesn't warrant MR and being bred. God knows we've got enough dogs on earth needing homes so when one chooses for breeding, one needs to choose very carefully. I know it doesn't solve all issues, but I personally can't find the point of putting a pup on main if it is solely intended as a pet not to be bred from. edit: spelling brainfart. There are no rules that determine only show/breeding homes get main registration. It's exploitation of a set of circumstances that some breeders out of habit think this is the registration guidelines which it isn't. If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one. Things may change from puppyhood to adult where having a nice dog, someone may want to show it after becomming enthused in the breed???. The breeder won't upgrade the registration to main, it's all over. If you pay the money for a good quality dog, you should get the approriate paperwork. Why close all your options up at 8 weeks old

Main register pups are not always of good quality, as a pet owner you would like to think that you are getting a very well bred dog, doesn't happen Of course not, and the reason mains aren't always of good quality if because some breeder with no idea on what they're doing has got themselves a few dogs on the main reg which they've bred because one is male and the other is female. Even if the dogs they've obtained are of reasonable quality, unless they put it with something that will compliment it, you could end up with poorly conformed dogs. Lovely post Stormie That should be the "breeders law". Too many that have a female think that using the latest champion male will produce more champions which depending on the particular female is not always the case. Sometimes the male that placed 10th would be a better stud prospect :D

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family. If it has a disqualifying fault, it's faulty. A crossbreed can live long healthy life too, but cannot be papered. Not all puppies rated as very promising turn out champions but are still breedworthy and still shown and bred. If it's a good pup, it deserves to be main registered IMO.