Black Bronson

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound. I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression? Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread. What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as an alternative corrective measure

Actually, yes, one of the things we discussed was walking him further away from barking dogs so he doesn't have a chance to practice (and get a pay off from) bad behaviour. But at the same time, we are working up to walking closer to them. It is not avoid it for ever. Makes sense and is working well. I really did want oppinions on whether desexing was likely to make a difference. Thank you to everyone who answered that. I am happy with my trainer. I feel her idea is to keep the kids safe while I get a better handle on him and go from there. Yep - I was in bed half asleep for this mornings incident. My daughter had inadvertantly let him inside and she knew he was supposed to be outside or in his puppy pen untill I am up to supervise, so she wanted to take him outside. I agree asking the kids to use an aversive could just cause his behaviour to escalate. Out of interest, what have you done when the dog mouths the kids which sounds like dominance aggression, what instructions have you been given to do when the dog reacts???

Wow that's so far off the mark it's not even funny - but good to see that you know so much about a trainer you've never met, and have no idea what is actually involved in the OP's training program. I'm sure you are aware that for some dogs attempting to correct them when they are displaying peak aggression is pointless because their adrenaline is so high their pain threshold changes and they don't even register the correction - there are many benefits in avoiding situations where an aggressive dog goes into drive peak. Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak Whats wrong with clicker training? By the way the clicker is only a marker and you could couple it with a negative if that's what floats your boat??? Have you ever tried it? And as Huski knows the behaviouralist that is helping and you don't, then maybe, just maybe Huski actually does know what she is talking about. I am sorry but the holier than thou attitude is sometimes a little wearing. Huski is a good trainer, I like her work that I have seen on videos, but I don't think aggression is her specialty, different behaviour, different training and control.

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

Wow that's so far off the mark it's not even funny - but good to see that you know so much about a trainer you've never met, and have no idea what is actually involved in the OP's training program. I'm sure you are aware that for some dogs attempting to correct them when they are displaying peak aggression is pointless because their adrenaline is so high their pain threshold changes and they don't even register the correction - there are many benefits in avoiding situations where an aggressive dog goes into drive peak. Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak

but the trainer is supposed to be helping you but from what you have told us there is no plan for how the dog will be shown that his behaviour is wrong. supposing you are following your trainers advice, it is clearly not working so the trainers methods will be questioned. you posted here for help which we are trying to give you so all things will be discussed. something must not be working for you if you posted here instead of talking to your trainer. I would say that the trainer is not confident in correcting the behaviour and has gone the avoidence routine. Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs Personally, I would use negative reinforcement to correct that behaviour, but in these circumstances, I would prefer a trainer who will use aversives when required and be cautious of the purely positive trainers with these type of behaviours who are often out of their depth.

And your quote: Is appalling to say the least I am more interested in the concepts being put to government bodies. Groups of people getting together with the best intentions will not sway the rule makers into relaxing BSL unless the rule makers are formally approached and debated with on the subject which is what I am asking about???. Are there any formal meetings scheduled with the relevent government bodies yet???.

This is my next door neighbor, as of right now, it is still being upheld as a local law. Subordinate Local Law No.4 (Keeping and Control of Animals) South Burnett shire council The objects of this subordinate local law are to provide the detailed matters called upon by Local Law No.4 (Keeping and Control of Animals) to regulate the keeping of animals— (a) to protect the community against risk of injury and damage; and (b) to ensure that animals do not create a nuisance, or a hazard to health or safety; and © to prevent pollution and other environmental damage resulting from the keeping of animals and to protect the amenity of the local environment; and (d) to ensure that animals are kept and used in a way that is consistent with the rights and expectations of the local community. Definitions 3. (1) In this subordinate local law all terms have the same meaning as those provided for in Local Law No.4 (Keeping and Control of Animals). Local law definitions 4. (1) For the purposes of section 3 of the Local Law, the following breeds or cross breeds of dog are included in the definition of “dangerous dog”:- (a) Alsatian; (b) Bull Terrier; © Doberman; (d) Greyhound; (f) Rhodesian Ridge Back; (g) Rottweiler They also regulate an asortment of barnyard animals. That is not the current legislation from South Burnett which now lists the breeds under the Customs Act.

We got pet greyhounds exempt from BSL that required them to be muzzled in QLD last year. It was great to be able to get that law changed. No whinging or bitching from me. Five years of work and lobbying, and we did it. Now our dogs are treated like normal dogs. That's a good result Greytmate

Maybe you need to stick to your state they do need help now with, the wonderful laws just passed.Aren't they shockers or havent you read them yet?? Have you done anything to help fight BSL apart from a few rash statements on the forum???? Or just here to stir the pot. Nope it don't affect you does it??? BSL affects all breeds. tybrax That doesn't really answer my question Tybrax...............are you able to provide a proper answer or not??

No, it wasn't nice what happened to the APBT, he looked like a nice boy But having said that..........they are the rules in the UK regardless if it's right or wrong. Get caught with a Pit Bull, that's the consequence unfortunately. It's a bit like saying there should be a driving test to prove you can still drive well under the influence of alcohol, and some can drive safely over the limit...........but the limit is set and that's the rules......there is no argument, end of story. We all have a choice

To be honest, I am a bit confused with any anti BSL movements or campaigns operating at all, because they haven't even put the slightest dent in relaxing any legislation regarding dangerous dogs or restricted breeds and the legislation is getting tougher by the day. There is plenty of chat, but is there any real action happening, or is it just and whinge and bitch fest

Nothing to do with cats and donkeys, the councils if they want to, can ban or list breeds as dangerous if the breed is listed under the Customs Act. They can't add breeds that are not restricted from import, ban them or declare them dangerous by breed alone. The freedom that the councils have, is to place restrictions upon the breeds listed under the Customs Act, or have no restrictions at all. Council doesn't have the power to over-ride the Animal Management Acts that control the states. The Amstaff situation is unique in the sense that it may be considered the same breed as a breed already restricted which is not the same thing as adding an entirely different breed to the list. The only reason the Amstaff is in the line of fire is because they believe an Amstaff and APBT have two names recorded for essentially the same breed of dog which is obviously debatable. They can't ban Rottweilers for example on the basis of being a alternate name for an already restricted breed. The Queensland legislation uses the definition of "restricted dog" set by the Federal Customs (Prohibited Imports) Restricted dog breeds are "SET" by Federal Customs not the council.

That's the open-ended nature of the present Act in Qld. Which means councils can add what they like in respect to dog breeds. So negotiation with the State Gov Dpt re ensuring Amstaffs don't get caught up in the 'restricted' list....as a result of the Tango Supreme Court decision...doesn't impact on what the councils decide to do. They can only restrict or ban breeds that are listed under the Customs Act

Correct So why do so many breeders believe that the latest show winner is the best stud for their bitch???.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected. Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement. So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???. I do not believe that there are many breeders out there who would not explain the difference between main and limited, if it cameup... but if they from the start insisted that all they want is a companion dog, why on earth would anyone happily put it on the main register, particularly if at the time of assessment, it is not up to "mains" registration? the way i see it, it is almost an official requirement that we assess and place puppies on the specific registers... if I was to place all puppies from a litter on main registration, but 8/10 of them went to "pet" homes, and then they went ahead and bred with them, we are inadvertantly breeding dogs that are not for the betterment of the breed. It doesn't matter if someone else breeds.......they can't use the original breeders prefix anyway, nothing to do with the original breeder really???. Not everyone's interpretation of improving the breed is the same either???. But it does when a breeder is producing terrible quality pups. For example.. 'BlackDog Danes' breed beautiful quality black danes. They are a very well respected kennel and known for quite possibly having the best blacks in Australia. Then there's 'JohnSmith Danes' who are quite new and have no idea what they are doing with breeding, with little knowledge of the breed standard etc. They manage to get a dog who is of 'BlackDog' lines that's in the main register. So JohnSmith breed their BlackDog male to a female they had. The resulting puppies are pretty bad examples of the breed. When JohnSmith Danes advertise their puppies, they title the ad with 'Quality puppies - BlackDog lines'. So people see these puppies who really aren't they great and think because they are of BlackDog lines, this must be a similar quality to BlackDog danes and what BlackDog danes produce. But in actual fact, it's a far cry from what BlackDog Danes produce, because they, unlike JohnSmith, actually know what they're doing. So, no, JohnSmith didn't breed under the BlackDog prefix, but they have essentially used their name to promote their poorly conformed Danes who are terrible examples of the breed, which can reflect poorly on the BlackDog lines. Don't get me wrong Stormie, I fully understand where you are coming from in your example, but it happens now in my breed all the time and it's all done ligitimately with no one treading on others toes. You have a really good German imported stud with the right bitch will produce some show winning progeny. Many breeders may use this stud and breed him with the bitch they have and not always for the right reasons, but none the less, the sire of the litter is this great dog and the breeders are not shy advertising this either which is fair enough. Down the track there is a show and 1st place goes to a son of this great import. But at the same show, the great import also sires 18th, 32nd and 40th which was last. So the great import has sired, 1st, 18th, 32nd, and last position (40th) in the show. Do we determine from those results, that the great import is not really a good dog as the other progeny on the day was only average, or do we compare the bitch lines from the not so good examples and the show winner??? I don't see that becuase several breeders with inferior bitch lines didn't fill all the top spots in the show, reflects on the great import's ability to reproduce or detracts anything from the quality of that stud, what do you think

Haven't been on those overseas working dog sites have you Nekhbet............the ones that have videos of their routines and you can physically work the dog before you buy it

Absolutely shop around!!!, you will notice a huge difference when you meet the breeder who is on the same page as you, they are around and worth their weight in gold

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected. Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement. So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???. I do not believe that there are many breeders out there who would not explain the difference between main and limited, if it cameup... but if they from the start insisted that all they want is a companion dog, why on earth would anyone happily put it on the main register, particularly if at the time of assessment, it is not up to "mains" registration? the way i see it, it is almost an official requirement that we assess and place puppies on the specific registers... if I was to place all puppies from a litter on main registration, but 8/10 of them went to "pet" homes, and then they went ahead and bred with them, we are inadvertantly breeding dogs that are not for the betterment of the breed. It doesn't matter if someone else breeds.......they can't use the original breeders prefix anyway, nothing to do with the original breeder really???. Not everyone's interpretation of improving the breed is the same either???.

Rubbish. You show us the figures before you expect us to believe you. What is the statistical likelihood exactly? Define what you think 'X-factor' means as a dog breeding term. You are clutching at straws to try to prove a point. All you are proving is that you don't know enough about breeding to understand why some breeders are unwilling to allow just anyone to use their lines. Much has been proven in racing animals and working animals about breeding practices and what works to produce quality. You seem to have no inkling about how out of your depth you really are. What the thread's about is breeders conditions/restrictions when selling a puppy as you all well know. It's also about how far as a puppy buyer are you willing to bend over to the breeders terms. Personally, I couldn't care less about the reasons why a breeder may conduct restrictive sales as all I am interested in is purchasing a particular puppy. If I like the pup and it is not up to breedworthy standards, I would purchase it on limited register as I did with my 3 year old GSD with a faulty coat however, if it is breedworthy and a nice example, I want it on main register unrestricted. If the breeder won't sell me an unrestricted puppy, they can belt it up their jumper and I have no further interest dealing with them, too hard, pain in the backside. But the point is, you don't have to bend over to any kind of rediculous restrictions because if you look around, there are some very good breeders still around that are willing to provide you with the puppy and the deal you are looking for

My main register pups go out at a higher price than my limited register ones. I work like mad to build relationships with my puppy buyers and the ones who want to show or breed get a hell of a lot more of me and my resources than the limited register people. They also get as close to perfect that I can breed. Our legal people have advised that the only way a contract for sale can be upheld is if the dog is sold for a different price for breeding than as a pet. I sell the dog on limited register at an agreed price on the condition that it isnt used for breeding.If the buyer breaches the contract and uses the dog for breeding then they agree to pay me the agreed difference because we both agree at the time of sale that a breeding dog is a higher price and the only reason they got the dog at a lower price was due to their assurances that it was not going to be bred with. Perfect Steve What Steve is explaining is the original "old school" breeding practices we would all expect from a good breeder. The more modern trends of selling faulty dogs for the same price and placing ego driven restrictions upon buyers rights of owning a good breedworthy dog is a trend I can't come to terms with easily or agree with. The breeders I have purchased from over the years have "ALL" had perspectives along similar lines as Steve's explained, and fortunately, there are still some "great" beeders like this

Not entirely. Dusty was bought as a pet, but I show her and many other people are in the same position as me. They have no intention of breeding, but the family pooch is a goodie and so becomes the introduction to the world of dog shows. She was not bought as a show dog, she was bought as a pet however the breeder mentioned she was good enough for the show ring and so I gave it a go. Yes GayleK, that happens often and also causes some nasty arguments if the breeder won't raise the dog to main register if someone has a good dog and becomes interested in showing. The dog may not be a champion, but a good dog that is showable is all that is needed to become involved and enjoy another activity with your dog. The ANKC definition of main register: "Provides full rights of owning a pedigree dog"

Thank you Steve, at last an educated perspective of the situation Your perspective is EXACTLY the perspectives I would expect from an ethical and reputable breeder, excellent post

I'm sure they were thinking about saving their dog and fighting BSL, they've sure saved a lot of dogs which is more than most people on here, and by no means thought about putting the amstaff in the spotlight, that was the GCCC so build a bridge and get over it. Nothing for me to get over Geo, I don't own restricted breeds

None of my present boys have been used at stud, the last time was my old boy in 1995. The puppy maybe down the track if things work out well :p