Black Bronson

You are totally correct Stormie My reference is intended as a general overview from what has been provided by the OP and then what is needed from there I think, is a trainer to teach the OP how to administer the correction on the basis of that particular dog's requirements of course. It's difficult to teach a correction process correctly on an internet forum in words alone and a competent trainer is necessary for this process to be taught properly. Purely positive trainers have a lot to offer in some areas and often I have seen "hard core" old school working dog trainers hiding a clicker in their pocket , but on the other hand, I have also seen purely positive trainers deem an out of control young dog especially working breeds, to be PTS as the behaviour is beyond that trainers ability to rehabilitate when the PP methods fail. IMHO, a good trainer is one that doesn't limit themselves to training in one method only and is prepared to use whatever methods or tools are required to rehabilitate the dog's behaviour.

Yes, he is crate trained. He has his pen inside because it's easy to fold up out of the way, and his crate on the verandah. He sleeps in the pen, then at 5.00am or so my husband lets him out to toilet then locks him on the verandah. My daughter let him in going outside to get something. She is supposed to use the back door if he is locked up but 'forgot'. The new arrangement is as you suggested - for my partner to crate him when he leaves. BB- no, I don't believe it is aggressive snapping, (he has never left even a scratch or mark on anyone since he was tiny) more he is excited and reverts back to playful nipping/mouthing, which is still completely unacceptable and could land him and me in hot water if he does it to the wrong person. I'm also worried it could become something else as he learns that putting his teeth on people works. It does happen mostly in relation to his collar being held when he is already excited though. If he is not in a silly puppy bouncy mood he is very tolerant. I am not very good at explaining things so understand you will not have a full picture of what is going on. It sounds more like the dog is just being silly and directing mouthy behaviour towards the kids for a reaction as often young dogs do. In that instance, I wouldn't hesitate to use an aversive to set the boundaries of what the dog is allowed to bite and what it's not and people, kids, other animals are off limits. The dog IMO needs to learn that mouthing any living creature has an unpleasant consequence and as a result, the dog will learn quickly what it can and cannot do.

This is my perception Cosmolo: Your comments in regard to this thread primarily tells me that your are more focused upon an "escape route" if you can't correct the behaviour, and a trainer with this perception I would never hire or recommend as to me, it shows a trainers lack of confidence in their own ability. It wouldn't be the first time I have seen several trainers determine a dog should be PTS and for another trainer to correct the problem and save the dog's life. So what's that about???, in the opinion of some, the dog is untrainable, but another trainer has managed to rehabilitate the dog which amounts to some trainers possess a greater skill level than others in a given behavioural situation. Should have a chat with some herding trainers that use E collars to teach excited dog's not to bite the sheep. Not a whole lot different than excited dogs biting the kids really............it's about setting the boundaries of what is permitted and what's not

You corrected the dog when in position...........why???

There have been some meetings, unfortunately the people at the helm are at the whim of if and when the "rule makers" want to talk. There are mainly just your avergae joe working on this in their spare time, this is why to fight BSL we need the bigger players involved like the AKNC, RSPCA, cainie control councils, maybe we need to get the people over from Holland and Italy as they have succesfully repealed BSL. Perhaps if there was a primary action that group people could join. I agree, it needs some heavy weights in support of BSL repeal.

Because that is what you are paying a trainer/behaviourist for Cosmolo...........results not excuses. Has the dog been tried with an E collar for remote stimulation when the handler is not right next to the dog???, An E Collar would be an excellent training tool for this situation

Funnily enough Danois, it's a bit like the show scene isn't it???. Unless you belong to the circle of people experinced at posting on the forum, you get arguments Many a time a newbie member will make a comment and automatically they are wrong as the seasoned posters slip into them. The seasoned poster will make an identical comment on another thread and get commended for an excellent post. Perhaps the OP should just desex the dog and let him interact with the kids contrary to my thoughts, desexing should fix the behavioral problem if my belief is wrong hey

Someone mentioned Rex to me before Corvus............couldn't find a Rex to view his/her posts..........who's Rex anyway

Ummm...yeah. I went and had a training session with the dog, a wine with my dad and put my kids to bed. When Banjo does this I use a growly 'uh-uh' and put him outside or in his pen. Yeah, pretty weak now but it's carried over from him being a tiny 8 week old. I'm off for kids activities now, so won't be replying till much later in the day. This is my opinion: The "uh-uh" is no longer working and he needs a correction to strengthen the "uh-ah" and re-gain his attention. Once you have his attention, I follow through with another command.........here, come, drop and then praise him for obeying the command. The snapping at the kids, I would like to know if they are play bites or if the dog is getting cranky in a dominant fashion???.

Hee! Thank so much. He is very cute but a real handful. Do you have photos you've shared of your puppy? I'd love to see them and the search function on this forum sometimes gives me too many hits ;) The avatar is from when Elbie was a bit younger but he still gets that look on his face when he comes barrelling towards the kitchen door when he hears someone coming in Here's my GSD When his ears were floppy........he looked so much like your boy and is also a handful too

Is he the guy that breeds black Malinois? Just curious as I have heard his name before.. but not sure where? Crysti_Lei, would it be worth your Grandma joining an IPO / Schutzhund club? (http://www.adelaidesportdogclub.com/) Perhaps if she was not physically able to work the dog then she might know of someone else that would like to handle it for her during training? It sounds like she knows her stuff, particularly if Belgians have been the family breed choice for such a long time, so maybe just another outlet for her and Addy? The Malinios he trials aren't black, but he does have a black GSD also. He's a Schutzhund and security dog trainer. I have heard from people very pleased with his results with high drive and aggressive dog rehabilitation in SA:)

It is none of the Vets business, they are NOT local Law Enforcement Officers. Thats right eithical, welfare and Legal are all different matters and rarely cross territories, however anyone can report someone for having over the prescribed number of dogs! Someone reported me once as I had five and I had to rehome 1 and PTS the other! I was an ACO and my boss knew of my animals ( was trying to rehome the excessnumbers) I live and never work in the same municipality! That's rough Wazzat, given the amount of people I have know over the years get away with over subscriptions and no registrations.

I have known several people owning an excess amount of dogs, 3 or 4 under the same vet not all registered with council due to exceeding a 2 dog legislation, but they seemed to get away with it and not like the vet had dobbed them in. I guess the vet wouldn't know if they had permits for 3 or 4 dogs anyway???. Personally, I think my vet would turn a blind eye to the 3 dog rule if they know it's for a good cause They are really nice people and I know from previous experience that they haven't dobbed me in to the council A good vet loves and cares about animals...........why would you go to one that doesn't I don't think vets would be interested in council matters unless it concerned animals being kept in poor condition and not looked after properly.

Micheal Kamphuis (MDT dog Training) is another excellent SA trainer that comes to mind. He trails and breeds Malinios and is very experienced with the breed.

Cute puppy Koalathebear I thought he was a black GSD in your avatar. He looks facially very much like my 13 week old black working line Sheppie

I have known several people owning an excess amount of dogs, 3 or 4 under the same vet not all registered with council due to exceeding a 2 dog legislation, but they seemed to get away with it and not like the vet had dobbed them in. I guess the vet wouldn't know if they had permits for 3 or 4 dogs anyway???.

You are assuming a lot there, BB. A dog that gets excited when it sees other dogs is not DA. No one is questioning the seriousness of the dog mouthing at the kids, but there is not always a quick fix for behaviourial problems and how effectively they are managed relies on many factors, not just the dog, but the capability of the owner/family/etc/ No one has said that the dog should not be corrected, but that for the safety of the kids all efforts should be made to avoid putting them in a situation where the dog might act inappropriately. Or do you think the OP should intentionally put her kids in a situation where the dog is going to bite the kids, so she can punish him?? I would like to know the extent of the dog's aggression response, be it dominance, food, fear, dog etc to see where the behaviour is at. Personally I would muzzle and leash the dog whilst interacting with the kids and monitor closely what was happening. To administer corrections effectively, I would like to catch the dog attempting to snap or acting aggressively and work it from there.

When you work with a dog, you get to feel where the dog is at in terms of it's temperament, hardness and nerve and you apply the level of correction that works for the particular dog which is the trainers job to determine. Yes, you can shut a dog down briefly applying an over hard correction, but truthfully the "fallout" IMO is over dramatised as to it's possible lasting effect. I have known just average dogs hit by cars and hung onto life by a thread, but the trauma and pain of being run over which is far greater trauma than a leash correction didn't turn these dogs into a neurotic mess by any means. Sure stopped a few getting near the road and chasing cars though I began training in the 70's where often rolled up newspapers and a boot up the bum were the primary tools of the trade amoungst a few other methods along the way, but some of this anti-aversive at all cost theory at times is competely over the top I think.

My apology to the OP for going off topic briefly, I need to address this comment of Chewbacca's if I may???. You are referring to a comment of mine in another thread Chewbacca............I am referring to a GSD's compliance with the breed standards which is not a claim that your GSD is not a good dog. A compliant GSD should be able to fulfill the role as a family pet as your's does along with the ability to work. If it can't pass a working test set out for the breed that many do unfortunately fail such a test, it's faulty to the breed standard is what I have said. Unless your GSD has a Schutzhund or Herding title and has been endurance tested, we don't know how it's overall compliance rates with the breed standard :D

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound. I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression? Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread. What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as an alternative corrective measure I think a trainer that has any idea what they are doing would not need to go so far as stinging a dog up - I know it was done........about 30 years ago, but seriously that is what you deem the correct way to deal with it. I am thankful I did not do that my my young Dobe who had been harassed by small children, than started seeing them as something to gorwl at. Amazingly I managed to get her to the point she liked children and didn't so much as lick them without stringing her up. Oh and I also had never heard of clicker training at that stage. I am glad the trainers I know are not into stringing dogs up as a solution for the dogs training issues No...........why mess around and start off soft then increase the corrective measure when the soft approach isn't working???. Snapping at the kids with aggression isn't just naughty play, it needs to be knocked on the head once and for all unless you would prefer to gamble with a kids disfigured face when you get it wrong. Go in hard, correct the misbehaviour and get it done and dusted and move on. Same goes for the dog that pulls on the leash...........6 months later after every traditional collar, head collar and harness has been tried unsuccessfully, the dog ends up on a prong. If it's a heavy puller, put in on a prong straight up and teach it how to walk nicely in 20 minutes. Too much messing around and productive training time being wasted trying to avoid an aversive as some dogs need aversive measures, and a good trainer knows when and where an aversive is best. There is a wide gap between a CORRECTION and stringing a dog up and cutting it's air off. a VERY LARGE GAP! I have had Rotti's, Dobermann's, A Stafford and currently Whippets. Interestingly I have never had to use any head collars or prongs. I did use Check chains years ago, but now use martingales mainly due to the fact a Whippet has a skinny head and I don't want them to back out of a collar at an inappropriate time - not that they have every tried. All of my dogs did and do walk well on lead, none need to wear anything other than a flat collar or with my Whips a martingale. Why not teach the dog correctly the first time instead of resorting to different devices (yes I know some dogs do need them and I have no problem with that). I have also walked 4 dogs with a pram quite easily in the past, all on flat or martingale collars. I am not a "positive only and no other way" training person and there are some situations that require adversives. But hey what would I know. I am stepping away because I can see that there is no educating some people. Yes, from puppyhood it's best to teach the right way and a whole lot easier long term, but not all puppies are taught correctly which results in adolescent dogs of poor behaviour that need to be trained. Some dogs in the peak of drive especially aggressive reactions are totally uncontrollable where nothing other than blocking their ability to breath will make them submit. Half hearted corrections can agitiate the dog to higher levels of aggression so what ever the correction, it has to be severe enough to either gain the dog's attention or settle it down. It's matter of simply lifting the dogs front legs off the ground which can be achieved on a flat collar if high enough on the dogs neck...........were are not talking William Koehler style hoisting the dog up on a block and tackle until it passes out. It's not the big deal of ultimate cruelty that some like to make out it is. Simple effective air block that will stop the most viscious dog in it's tracks when it can't breath.

What Huski is doing, is telling the OP it's all good and the trainer is doing a great job...........I disagree, I think the trainer is messing around with a dangerous situation and doesn't know how to correct it effectively.........just my opinion :D And you are basing that on ONE brief comment that about a behaviour that has just resurfaced. As Cosmolo posted earlier, sometimes there are no quick fixes for behaviourial problems and it's not about the dog but what the family and owner is capable of doing. You have no idea how the OP has been told to correct the dog for this behaviour, you have no idea the extent of the training program the dog is on, nor what the actual problem is. I know the trainer in real life, I have seen her work with dogs including my own, I am 110% confident of her ability to help the OP. You haven't even seen the dog, yet this trainer has, how can you possibly think you know what the problem is or how best to fix it when all you have to go on are a couple of posts in an internet forum? How about you come meet the dog, and the trainer, and then share with us your "expert" opinion? I did ask the question how the OP was taught to handle the situation to get a clearer picture...........but haven't had an answer yet???. How can anyone on the forum get a clear picture of the situation anyway, we are all in the same boat offering an opnion upon what the OP has told us in the thread If you are 110% confident that the trainer will eventually sort the dog out great, but just keep in mind the seriousness of dogs snapping at kids and where this behaviour can esculate if not corrected effectively. Sounds like the dog is also DA........so it has a few aggression issues in that case perhaps???. My point is this Huski, never mind about trying to avoiding negative reinforcement when correcting aggressive misbehaviour towards kids. If it needs to be adminsitered for the kid's saftey, so be it. Let's get the priorities straight in this situation ;)

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound. I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression? Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread. What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as the other corrective measure ;) Bloody hell BB, you are so slap bang about everything. I for one certainly dont take your posts seriously considering you think a well behaved, social obedient GSD is faulty. TO the OP, I have kids not as old as yours and I admire the work you have put in. If it was me with my young tribe I would consider re homing as I have too many kids coming and going in my house from 0-5. Kids often dont remember all the rules and unless your eyes are on interactions permanently I'd consider the situation too unsafe. Obviously my lot are a lot younger. Good on you and I hope the situation eases up for you. Should we take your advice seriously Chewbacca.........re-home the dog and give the problem to someone else :D I do agree it would correct the problem though, you are right Is the OP's dog a GSD???.

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound. I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression? Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread. What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as an alternative corrective measure I think a trainer that has any idea what they are doing would not need to go so far as stinging a dog up - I know it was done........about 30 years ago, but seriously that is what you deem the correct way to deal with it. I am thankful I did not do that my my young Dobe who had been harassed by small children, than started seeing them as something to gorwl at. Amazingly I managed to get her to the point she liked children and didn't so much as lick them without stringing her up. Oh and I also had never heard of clicker training at that stage. I am glad the trainers I know are not into stringing dogs up as a solution for the dogs training issues No...........why mess around and start off soft then increase the corrective measure when the soft approach isn't working???. Snapping at the kids with aggression isn't just naughty play, it needs to be knocked on the head once and for all unless you would prefer to gamble with a kids disfigured face when you get it wrong. Go in hard, correct the misbehaviour and get it done and dusted and move on. Same goes for the dog that pulls on the leash...........6 months later after every traditional collar, head collar and harness has been tried unsuccessfully, the dog ends up on a prong. If it's a heavy puller, put in on a prong straight up and teach it how to walk nicely in 20 minutes. Too much messing around and productive training time being wasted trying to avoid an aversive as some dogs need aversive measures, and a good trainer knows when and where an aversive is best.

What Huski is doing, is telling the OP it's all good and the trainer is doing a great job...........I disagree, I think the trainer is messing around with a dangerous situation and doesn't know how to correct it effectively.........just my opinion

Of course not by the child. The primary handler needs to set the boundaries naturally